for page 108:

Quote :

"First off...this is fucking NC State, where nobody should expect to win, ever. ""

THIS IS THE PROBLEM I'M TALKING ABOUT!!! You are accepting the mentality that we shouldn't expect to win. We should and we have every fucking right to expect to win with the amount of money being raked in by our athletics department and the tremendous FAN support (you and me!!!) we have for our programs. We were #18 in the nation in basketball attendance just last year with our shit performance, if you can believe it. It's not unheard of to expect to be great. See UNC, UCLA, Florida, Kansas, Kentucky, etc, etc, etc

We have everything in place right now to be out FUCKING standing with our history and our state of the art facililies (time to move on now to results, Fowler), and we are pissing it away.

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 7:38 PM. Reason : []

3/16/2009 7:38:36 PM

Quote :

"Here's the difference between me and you, wolfAApack/GenghisJohn/Bullet/others. When I sit down to watch our games, I want to expect to win. I do NOT want to hope to win. I want to KNOW without a doubt that before the season starts we will be in the NCAA tournament. I want our expectations to be above and beyond a typical D1 school. I do not think it is a stretch to expect these things when you compare our results on the court with the amount of money our athletics department is raking in. Basically, what you are not realizing is that the administration is cashing your checks and spitting in your face, and you are vehemently content defending this mockery of the entire NCSU fan base."

We have a good bit of money, but money isn't everything a coach thinks about (I mean fuck dude, we couldn't even buy Calipari). If we fire a guy after 3 years, when he is improving both on the court and in recruiting, its going to look really fucking bad. How can any up and coming coach expect to do well in that environment? Nobody is a miracle worker, but if we fired Lowe now we'd be sending the message that we demand a miracle worker. And nobody would want to come here.

3/16/2009 7:38:38 PM

We need a miracle worker to get us out of the bottom of the ACC in their 3rd year?

And it goes beyond missing on Calapari. It's not just this one 3 year skid that I'm talking about. It's about expecting excellence in all of our sports, and that just simply isn't a priority within our ATHLETICS department. It's like the only thing they are working on is marketing and advertising to get even MORE of our money, but they aren't holding up their end of the bargain.

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 7:43 PM. Reason : []

3/16/2009 7:40:20 PM

Quote :

"It's about expecting excellence in all of our sports, and that just simply isn't a priority within our ATHLETICS department. It's like the only thing they are working on is marketing and advertising to get even MORE of our money, but they aren't holding up their end of the bargain."

Wins put people in the seats more than marketing and advertising. You can criticize Fowler for a lot of things, you can say he doesn't know how to win, but you you can't say he doesn't want to win. That's his job, of course the guy wants to win, of course it's a fucking priority.

3/16/2009 7:46:03 PM

Quote :

"Wins put people in the seats more than marketing and advertising."

That statement can definitely be argued regarding NC State athletics.

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 7:50 PM. Reason : []

3/16/2009 7:49:50 PM

The trolling is strong with this one.

3/16/2009 7:52:07 PM

Quote :

"That statement can definitely be argued regarding NC State athletics."

Argued how?

3/16/2009 7:53:13 PM

We finished dead last in the ACC last year and had the #18 attendance in the entire Nation. And if you are going to try and tell me that money does not translate into successful programs, with the exception of NC State, you go look at the most successful programs and then take a real long and hard gander at their balance sheet.

3/16/2009 7:57:32 PM

Ohboyeee....I'll be serious with you for a second.


Some people I'm in school with were talking about last season before it started. A few were discussing how great we should be because of all those great players we had and a great recruit in JJ Hickson. Then, the other group of us tried to give a little bit of a "hang on a sec" lecture about how we shouldn't get our expectations up THAT year because we have to replace the player who made that team click in Atsur.

None of them were having any of it. We were going to be great. We were going to beat the fuck out of UNC and d00k...they can't hang with Costner, Fells, McCauley and JJ.

After the season, they were calling for the coaches head. This season, they started with lower expectations, but still expected Lowe to work some sort of miracle on this team and were expecting us to go undefeated in the non conference schedule and roll through the ACC and finish in the top half.

You sound like one of these guys. Its great for you to get your hopes high and expect greatness, but you can't expect to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. The sad thing is, I think if we win one or two more games this season we're not even having this conversation, yet many state fans along with yourself are acting like we just won the ACC title last year and didn't win a conference game with the same team.

So, please do us all a favor and put things in perspective. Nobody is saying Lowe has done a great job, but its absurd to say he's done a terrible job with what he was given. He could prove me wrong in the next 2 years, but he deserves a shot.

3/16/2009 8:13:48 PM

^^ correction, #16 in the nation in basketball attendance.

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 8:14 PM. Reason : []

3/16/2009 8:13:53 PM

Quote :

"yet many state fans along with yourself are acting like we just won the ACC title last year and didn't win a conference game with the same team."

that's the problem. We didn't even come close to winning any kinds of title's last year. We weren't even allowed to compete for any. And guess what this year brings along, the same shit again.

3/16/2009 8:18:21 PM

ok I give up...you really are retarded.

3/16/2009 8:19:06 PM

so that must make you a genius for wanting to keep Lowe around longer.

3/16/2009 8:20:14 PM

As long as we're playing ACC teams, we're going to attract 10,000 people. Attendance was down 9% this year as we continued to suck. It will keep falling if we keep sucking. Are you trying to argue that success does not lead to increased attendance?

3/16/2009 8:20:41 PM

3-9 football season... sell outs for the season? Come on guy. I'm talking NC State specifically.. would we have a better attendance in bball if we had a well coached team, absolutely, but #16 in the nation for a piss poor team is outstanding, which you cannot deny. If we had a well coached team our attendance would certainly be higher, and I'm not debating that.

3/16/2009 8:22:59 PM

I liked our fans better before I read message boards.

3/16/2009 8:24:05 PM

Here's the fucking deal

Herb was run out of town. Whether you like the guy or not doesn't matter. He was taking NC State to the tourney on a pretty regular basis, it wasn't enough for some people, so he left. Coaches around the country saw that shit.

Lowe has had three years working almost exclusively with players he did not recruit. Running him off now is not giving him a fair chance to prove whether or not he can handle the job. If he's fired, coaches around the country will again see that shit. Any chance we had with any somewhat established coach will be gone.

For a new coach to come in next year and win at NC State would be one of the most difficult jobs in the country. You're inheriting a team with a ton of holes, you've got two hall of fame coaches ten miles down the road, and you've seen the last two coaches lynched by an impatient fan base.

Fowler is a dumb cocksucker, but he's not dumb enough to throw Lowe under the bus after three years. Give up the fight. You aren't changing anyone's opinion, and it's unlikely that anyone will change yours.

I'm sure all this has been repeated ad nauseam in this thread and I'm sure you're just a dumb troll, but I'm saying it anyway.

3/16/2009 8:31:34 PM

Quote :

"I liked our fans better before I read message boards."

for real. i don't even wanna look at how ridiculous it is on statefans and pp

3/16/2009 9:05:30 PM

Quote :

"Football: 7-8 wins a year average with bowls 2/3 of the time, the occasional 9-10 win year and flirting with an ACC Championship/BCS bid once every 5-6 years Basketball: .500 or slightly better conference record, 4-6 ACC Tourney seed, NCAA berth 2/3 years, sweet 16 or further runs every 5/6 years THATS ALL I ASK"

You have shitty low expectations. It is shit like this that just infuriates me. Why shouldn't you expect excellence?? Jim Valvano is probably rolling around in his grave knowing that the school he loved so much is populated by people with such a loser mentality. He would have been PISSED at going .500 in the ACC. It's losers like Les Robinson (terrible), Herb Sendek (milquetoast who did just enough to get by with ZERO passion) and Sidney Lowe (great player, HORRIBLE coach) that have ruined NC State basketball. (and Lee Fowler overall for fucking up the entire athletic dept.)

To hell with giving Sid another couple of years. IT ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING. God, some of you are so fucking used to mediocrity (or worse).

3/16/2009 9:57:45 PM

The guy that posted that isn't a State fan

3/16/2009 10:07:16 PM

Also, it's pretty hard to call Robinson a terrible coach when he spent most of his time here coaching under NCAA sanctions and a ridiculous amount of injuries.

I'll save that for the Les Robinson credibility watch thread, though.

3/16/2009 10:26:27 PM

its funny, all the midmajor coaches we were clamoring for have sucked it up big.

all the big name coaches turned us down


LETS TRY AGAIN!

3/16/2009 10:35:35 PM

Quote :

"You have shitty low expectations. It is shit like this that just infuriates me. Why shouldn't you expect excellence?? Jim Valvano is probably rolling around in his grave knowing that the school he loved so much is populated by people with such a loser mentality. He would have been PISSED at going .500 in the ACC. It's losers like Les Robinson (terrible), Herb Sendek (milquetoast who did just enough to get by with ZERO passion) and Sidney Lowe (great player, HORRIBLE coach) that have ruined NC State basketball. (and Lee Fowler overall for fucking up the entire athletic dept.) To hell with giving Sid another couple of years. IT ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING. God, some of you are so fucking used to mediocrity (or worse)."

Posts like this are what infuriate me, not the fans. The constant living in the past, and bringing up Valvano all the time as reasons why we are suppose to be a national powerhouse in bball. As Ernie said, the program was left in pretty rough shape after Valvano left, he did great things sure but we've also spent years recovering from that era.

I'm tired of people confusing expectations, with love of the school and this "loser" mentality you speak of. Because I'm logical enough to look at the team, realize we are what we are for the time being, and try to come to terms with that I'm a terrible fan? Is it better if I pretend that we have a national championship team every year, and bang my head against the wall screaming about how great we are while running around in my Thompson jersey?

I just don't correlate crazy fanism to us winning. Firing Lowe at this point would be more detrimental to the program then another losing season even.

3/16/2009 10:47:14 PM

passionless coaches suck

let's get amato to come back

3/16/2009 10:57:29 PM

Quote :

"it's pretty hard to call Robinson a terrible coach"

les robinson was a horrible coach

you are going to start selling us on les now? really? is there any nc state coach you wont defend?


and we finished int he bottom 3 of the acc

missed the NIT

went 2-10 against tourney teams

1-4 against NIT teams

for a total of 3 wins against tourney teams

we only beat 4 teams with winning record. 4. and one of those teams had a worse record than we did (lipscomb, 15-14), only 1 in the rpi top 50

we finished behind miami for god's sake. they cant even come close to filling up their arena that is less than half the capacity of ours.

and all people can talk about is how much improvement we showed

instead of how goddamn embarassing our team was this year.



edit: and yes i am bitter and angry, some of my earliest stable basketball memories are fire and ice and les's first and only short trip to the tourney, i spent my formative years going to les robinson games for what seemed like 20 goddamn years, then the great white hope of herb sendek which showed great promise but delivered horrible inconsistent players like adam harrington and damien wilkins, finally get a star that pays off in juice and in grundy peaks to get us in the tourney, only to have to live with heartbreaking loss after heartbreaking loss, and now this shit agains, last place, last place last place. i'm tired of it



[/rant]

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 11:21 PM. Reason : when i realized this morning we missed the nit, i wanted to take fucking sick leave]

3/16/2009 11:12:50 PM

Quote :

"les robinson was a horrible coach you are going to start selling us on les now? really? is there any nc state coach you wont defend?"

Do you not realize how fucked we were after V left? Are you not aware of the crippling penalties handed down by the NCAA?

Was it 93 that Robinson only had like seven scholarship players? The sanctions and countless injuries never gave Robinson much of a chance. It says a lot that he never put up any 0-16 or 1-15 seasons, because a whole shit ton of coaches out there would have. In a situation like we were in during Robinson's tenure, you can't judge the coach based solely on his win-loss record.

Quote :

"we finished behind miami for god's sake. they cant even come close to filling up their arena that is less than half the capacity of ours. and all people can talk about is how much improvement we showed instead of how goddamn embarassing our team was this yea"

And last year we finished tied for last, lost to fucking New Orleans and ECU, and beat two tourney teams.

This year wasn't a great leap forward, no one has claimed it to be. But we saw the guys who Sid has brought it get better, while the guys he was left with stagnated or regressed.

Baby steps, buddy. Everett Case ain't walking through that door.

Quote :

"heartbreaking loss after heartbreaking loss"

You and 64 other fan bases every March.

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 11:25 PM. Reason : ]

3/16/2009 11:19:36 PM

Quote :

"Are you not aware of the crippling penalties handed down by the NCAA? "

Not attacking your otherwise great post...but I thought all of the penalties were self-imposed by our stupid administration? And that the NCAA ended up saying none of the stuff that happened with shoes and tickets was Valvano's fault and didn't hand down any penalties.

3/16/2009 11:29:51 PM

I know that we conducted our own investigations the shoes and players' grades. I'm honestly not sure who dropped the scholarships.

3/16/2009 11:33:25 PM

Quote :

"OhBoyeee All American 1575 Posts user info edit post Our new coach should have multiple NCAA championships under his belt also. This is something we would prefer, but is not necessarily the deciding factor."

AHAHAHAHAHA

oh lololol

Quote :

"MULTIPLE NCAA CHAMPIONSHIPS"

this guy is great.

3/16/2009 11:39:57 PM

look, i like to pretend i'm rational

i know we arent getting a great coach, but everyone know fowler royally fucked the search and now we have a "learning on the job" coach. you cant have that shit in the ACC.

i am the worst kind of guy b/c i point out problems but i have no solutions

i just know that it sucks for a program that is as steeped in tradition as our to hve finished in the bottom third of the acc as many times as we have in the last 15 years

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 11:48 PM. Reason : ^yea, i didnt read the context, but based ont hat ohboyee quote, that is nutbags]

3/16/2009 11:47:48 PM

UVA fired a coach that won the ACC regular season just two years ago.

This was his fourth year and his numbers were better than Lowe's.

Winning one more ACC game is improvement to you guys? We didn't beat any good teams except Wake and maybe Miami.

3/17/2009 12:38:42 AM

do you expect uva to improve w/ this firing? i don't, at all.

3/17/2009 12:41:07 AM

Well if they land their dream man Jeff Capel, they certainly will.

They were the worst ACC team, well them or GTech, where else can they go but up?

3/17/2009 12:42:21 AM

they could stay about the same.

3/17/2009 12:44:33 AM

There were no 'crippling NCAA restrictions'

NC State imposed restrictions voluntarily on its own program.

Les Robinson was part of that. He wasn't a coach of ACC caliber. Period.

3/17/2009 12:47:20 AM

Quote :

"UVA fired a coach that won the ACC regular season just two years ago."

with players he inherited from Pete Gillen

Quote :

"This was his fourth year and his numbers were better than Lowe's."

true, but after that good year they were steadily getting worse (from 1st to 10th to 11th in the conference), not exactly the same circumstances.

Quote :

"Winning one more ACC game is improvement to you guys? We didn't beat any good teams except Wake and maybe Miami."

it was a marginal improvement, but at least we weren't last in the conference. Lowe has a lot to prove next year, it looks like the wheels are falling off though.

3/17/2009 12:51:21 AM

Quote :

"There were no 'crippling NCAA restrictions' NC State imposed restrictions voluntarily on its own program. Les Robinson was part of that."

Like I said above, it doesn't matter if it was us or the NCAA, we were totally fucked after Valvano, no matter who the coach was.

How was Robinson a part of the sanctions, though? Dude was in Tennessee.

3/17/2009 12:58:43 AM

This thread is great. How can anyone possibly defend Lowe? I'm all for patience and waiting for a system to get into place, and I understand it takes time. However, there are absolute ZERO signs that Lowe has a system, or that he is slowly putting it into place. I would love for someone to point out to me what Lowe is doing to make our team great in the future. The one thing that his supporters pointed out in his favor was his recruiting, and look at how that has turned out. Even then, he was gunning for one and done players and that doesn't build a team or a system for long term wins. But that is irrelevant since he can't even bring those types of players in. Lowe reminds me of Amato in this respect, and we need a TOB.

3/17/2009 5:26:15 AM

Quote :

"UVA fired a coach that won the ACC regular season just two years ago."

is there any truth to the rumors that there are some chemistry issues with leitao? that's what i was reading somewhere else at least.

Quote :

"The one thing that his supporters pointed out in his favor was his recruiting, and look at how that has turned out."

a top 20 recruiting class for 2009. this is a problem, why? and so we tried to recruit a few of the top players in the country and failed. who cares? that's part of the game.

[Edited on March 17, 2009 at 7:37 AM. Reason : .]

3/17/2009 7:35:48 AM

^That's great and all if you have a backup plan with other recruits.

Also 99.9 The Fan said that four UVA players said either Leitao goes or they transfer FWIW.

3/17/2009 8:55:14 AM

Quote :

"is there any truth to the rumors that there are some chemistry issues with leitao? that's what i was reading somewhere else at least."

Leitao is supposedly a massive prick to his players. About the only player he ever got along with was Singletary.

When your coach is a prick and you win it's one thing... when you're a prick and you get killed every game it kind of gets old.

3/17/2009 9:15:34 AM

GenghisJohn, you fucking Lowe loving asshole, go back and read in context when the thread was seriously derailed.. there is no way in fuck I really believe we would ever get a coach with multiple NCAA championships.. however, you did leave out this quote of some serious criteria I proposed our new coach should have:

Quote :

"our new coach will need to meet at least these criteria: - needs to know the best starting lineup before 3/4 of the season have been played - knows who our best players are, and plays them - someone who has coached a game at the college level"

3/17/2009 9:37:50 AM

Quote :

"^That's great and all if you have a backup plan with other recruits."

we do. it's called having a top 20 recruiting class already. i'm sorry we didn't have any backup top 10 recruits for you.

or are you talking about leslie and 2010? because it's a little early to judge a recruiting class that's a year a away from signing.

[Edited on March 17, 2009 at 9:59 AM. Reason : .]

3/17/2009 9:59:16 AM

Now that Leitao has quit, do we have the worst coach in the ACC? Who is worse than Lowe?

Hewitt? Maybe. But he did make a final four and has out recruited Lowe to date (Favors).

3/17/2009 10:06:46 AM

Quote :

"our new coach will need to meet at least these criteria: - needs to know the best starting lineup before 3/4 of the season have been played - knows who our best players are, and plays them"

omg, coach K made a major starting lineup change mid season too....he must not know what he's doing.

seriously? I understand some frustration with Lowe, but atleast don't be a total dumbass about it.

3/17/2009 10:07:18 AM

Quote :

"The one thing that his supporters pointed out in his favor was his recruiting, and look at how that has turned out. Even then, he was gunning for one and done players and that doesn't build a team or a system for long term wins"

Seriously. Our '09 class only ranks 19th in the nation? I feel like we, as fans, deserve the best recruiting class in the nation! Or at least a top 5. (and that should not be comprised of one-and-doners either. we should have a top5 recruiting class made up of only 5-star players who will stay all 4-years!)

3/17/2009 10:09:51 AM

Um, coack K went 28-6 this year. I knew someone was going to bring this up. How many different starting lineups did we play with throughout the year compared to Duke? Why are people so stupid that to try and compare Lowe to coach K?

Bullet, oh no, you are putting words in people's mouths. I guess you only think in absolutes!!!1!

[Edited on March 17, 2009 at 10:14 AM. Reason : []

3/17/2009 10:11:08 AM

lol, who's comparing....simply showing you don't really know what you're talking about and grasping at straws to stir the pot.

3/17/2009 10:14:45 AM

Tracy Smith getting more minutes should have happened last year. I'm cautiously optimistic about Lowe, but taking that long to get Tracy some regular minutes was goddamn ridiculous.

3/17/2009 10:15:42 AM

I'll tell you what grasping at straws is. It is when people are defending Lowe when there is absolutely no evidence that indicate he is a good coach or EVER will be a good coach, and overwhelming evidence that he isn't.

Coach K made a couple of adjustments mid season to his starting lineup with Sheyer and Paulus. "Coach" Lowe was just throwing out a new unsuccessful starting lineup every fucking night. Then the the players who started in one game wouldn't see minutes for weeks. Don't ever try to compare what K is doing to what Lowe did like that ever again. You are so fucking delusional it is beyond belief. I don't what kind of Kool-Aid you've been drinking, but to try to compare Lowe and K on this is beyond stupidity.

Talk about grasping at straws

[Edited on March 17, 2009 at 10:25 AM. Reason : []

3/17/2009 10:16:41 AM