wlb420 I meant that Obama is very much like Bush in terms of political approach, not policy content.

1) Neither of them had very impressive resumes before moving into office.

2) Neither of them seem very interested in the details of policy (this became very clear after Obamawas repeatedly hamered by Clinton during the debates).

3) Both are very bull headed--having a tendency to often change positions (often only after the position becomes incredibly unpopular), but never admiting to doing so.

Those are not qualities that have worked well in office so far. So why do we think Obama will be different? Because he's a Democrat and that means he will obviously do what the base wants??? I think the Republican base would have something to say about their experiences.

[Edited on August 21, 2008 at 12:05 PM. Reason : ``]

8/21/2008 12:02:02 PM

McCain doesn't even know how many houses he owns: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12685.html

8/21/2008 12:05:10 PM

^ hahaha welcome to the last page, moron.

8/21/2008 12:06:52 PM

Quote :

"if he had his way, we'd start a war with russia and iran before he even takes office. you know, just to fast track this whole thing. "

you probably believe that.

8/21/2008 12:14:53 PM

I DO! That's the fucking problem. He's a freaking hawk and nothing he has said or done has suggested otherwise.

8/21/2008 12:17:07 PM

"DIDN'T YOU HEAR HIS BOMB IRAN JOKE???? HOW MUCH PROOF DO YOU GUYS NEED!?!?!? HE'S UNSTABLE"

hehe

8/21/2008 12:20:34 PM

You can't laugh this off though, he's given every indication that he's a hawk and just because you support him doesn't mean you should give him the halo effect and not be worried about it.

I mean, jeez...if your own base...members of your our own cloakroom actually say and I quote: 'mccain will make cheney look like ghandi' - well, that sums it up.

8/21/2008 12:29:55 PM

Quote :

"I DO! That's the fucking problem."

I agree

8/21/2008 12:30:58 PM

Kainen,

In previous posts I have mentioned that McCain is more hawkish than I would like (particularly toward N. Korea). But that is a long jump from thinking he would actually engage in full scale invasions of Russia or Iran. I suggest you check out McCain's major foreign policy speech from March.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-03-26-mccain-speech_N.htm

While you're doing that...

Quote :

"John McCain has overtaken Barack Obama in the presidential race, according to a Reuters/Zogby poll released Wednesday morning. McCain leads Obama 46 percent to 41 percent among likely voters, which is outside the poll's margin of error. Reuters/Zogby had Obama ahead by 7 points as recently as mid-July."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12656.html

[Edited on August 21, 2008 at 12:37 PM. Reason : GO GO MCCAIN]

8/21/2008 12:36:39 PM

I've already read it...it nearly put me to sleep while at work. McCain can sympathize with me though I figure..

Yeah I've seen the polls, so what, it's one out of an aggregate....he's definitely made up ground with all the negative advertising...I've ceded that, but that isn't permanent and the gaffe machine is currently giving the dems a huge angle to attack with so stay tuned.

8/21/2008 12:41:22 PM

speaking of all the whinning about negative ads.

Here is a great article socks. You should enjoy this.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/08/woe_is_me_said_the_democrat.html

Quote :

"In politics, everyone wants to be seen as a mudslinging virgin -- who, like King Lear, is "more sinned against than sinning." Toward that end, Democrats have crafted the conceit that Republicans are attack dogs, while Democratic candidates are not sufficiently ruthless. After years of calling President Bush every name in the book, the left nonetheless manages to see itself as the victim in the smear game. "

Quote :

"Oh, and while the Democratic National Committee produced a spot lampooning "Exxon John," ABC reported that Exxon Mobil Corp. execs have donated more money to Obama than McCain."

Quote :

"The left then whines that the right plays hardball, and the right excels at slinging mud -- blind to the fact that both sides have able mudslingers, but only one side has champion poor losers. "

WOW. and spot on

8/21/2008 12:46:09 PM

^^ no way, man. McCain is on a popularity freight train that just won't stop. I see him winning this election 60%+. All Obama has to do is just keep on talking.

PS* eyedr haha lovely.

[Edited on August 21, 2008 at 12:47 PM. Reason : `]

8/21/2008 12:46:36 PM

lol. care to back up that claim of McCain taking this by 60%+ in November? I'd bet my singular house and car on that.

8/21/2008 12:53:33 PM

i wouldn't want to take your money.

8/21/2008 12:55:55 PM

why? He would vote to take away yours. The democratic way

Easier to vote for things than earn them.

8/21/2008 1:10:22 PM

wow, how snarky this thread has become!

actually, unless you are loaded socks (middle class by McCain terms) I doubt you'd see any less monies than before no matter who you choose.

8/21/2008 1:16:16 PM

you could say i'm loaded

8/21/2008 1:21:49 PM

kainen, I know what he has stated about taxes. Its the spending parts that scare me, which makes me not believe ANYTHING he says about taxes.

Remember Clinton ran on middle class tax cuts.. and then raised them in office. YOu might be to young to remember.

8/21/2008 1:39:49 PM

Did you know that Republicans have never raised taxes?

It is true.

8/21/2008 1:57:37 PM

Quote :

"Its the spending parts that scare me"

well then its pretty amazing you're so pro repub after the spending free-for-all the supposed fiscally sound party has allowed in the last 7.5 years.

8/21/2008 2:03:37 PM

yeah thats another thing i dont get about repubs...smath wrote like a week ago on how he pays too much for taxes...i was thinking to myself like "well i mean bush has been in office for 7.5 years..."

8/21/2008 2:05:22 PM

^no, the last batch of repubs deserved to lose in 06. Im simply picking the lesser of two evils, imo.

Obama calls his tax plan more "fair", when its clearly just more wealth redistribution. (not fair, in my book)

8/21/2008 2:05:31 PM

Wow. That graph makes Obama appear awfully progressive.

8/21/2008 2:07:44 PM

^^ yeah yeah yeah. wealth distribution, states rights, blah blah blah

welcome to the era of the nation-states. we've only been here for some 4000 years. glad you could make it.

now get the fuck over it.

8/21/2008 2:20:25 PM

Obama is that progressive. That's new? He makes Clinton look like a ultra conservative.

8/21/2008 2:20:51 PM

Quote :

""Its the spending parts that scare me""

and how much are we spending per month for this ridiculous war?

8/21/2008 2:25:47 PM

He's not progressive enough for me, but I still might support him come November. Seeings that graph makes me want to.

(I need to register to vote out here.)

8/21/2008 2:26:37 PM

gunz, wars end. entitlements grow and are unsustainable.

8/21/2008 2:41:07 PM

The War on Terror may never end.

8/21/2008 2:55:18 PM

Quote :

"gunz, wars end. entitlements grow and are unsustainable."

lol, now that's worse than a fortune cookie right there folks.

You don't think McCain feels entitled to be president? And what are you getting at anyhow? OK let's play on your field - I get your silly meme - you buy the whole Obama is an arrogant messiah bullshit...oh no, that will grow from arugula into a nasty menacing monster, a real tyrant in the WH!!!

But another war? Meh...no big deal, sheesh...lives, destruction, devastation, but hey, it'll end

8/21/2008 3:30:20 PM

Hopefully for Obama, he spent enough time during his recent Hawaiian vacation trying to learn how to speak and answer questions without the use of a teleprompter

8/21/2008 3:38:09 PM

Hahaha. Funny that.

THHATS NOT CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE INN! *sneer, slow awkward grin and slow creepy laugh*

8/21/2008 3:47:11 PM

wtf are you talking about kainen?

Is that even addressed at me?

Or did you get caught up in some talking point slurge overload and couldnt control your fingers?

8/21/2008 3:56:05 PM

Quote :

"lol, now that's worse than a fortune cookie right there folks. You don't think McCain feels entitled to be president? And what are you getting at anyhow? OK let's play on your field - I get your silly meme - you buy the whole Obama is an arrogant messiah bullshit...oh no, that will grow from arugula into a nasty menacing monster, a real tyrant in the WH!!! But another war? Meh...no big deal, sheesh...lives, destruction, devastation, but hey, it'll end "

It appears that you don't understand the meaning of "entitlements".

8/21/2008 3:58:30 PM

one of the worst speeches ever, it's the first time i seriously said - this guy is a joke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF3ix2tcBNM

http://www.veracifier.com/episode/TPM_20080604

8/21/2008 3:59:50 PM

Quote :

"Hopefully for Obama, he spent enough time during his recent Hawaiian vacation trying to learn how to speak and answer questions without the use of a teleprompter"

did you seriously type that while in support of McCain?!!?!....the man just might be a worse speaker on the fly than GW, which is saying a hell of alot (or a little, depending on how you look at it)

8/21/2008 4:07:45 PM

McCain isnt a good speaker, but I dont think that is a reason to vote for someone. Being a good speaker is a bonus, if you have good policies.

Besides, turn off the teleprompter and the amazing performer Obama is turns into the wizards of uhhs.

8/21/2008 4:11:59 PM

Quote :

"McCain isnt a good speaker, but I dont think that is a reason to vote for someone. Being a good speaker is a bonus, if you have good policies"

totally agree, which is just another reason you don't want to use it as a talking pt when the guy you support is worse at it.

Quote :

"Besides, turn off the teleprompter and the amazing performer Obama is turns into the wizards of uhhs"

sorta like how McCain clams up, or storms off like a big baby when presented with a question he doesn't like.

[Edited on August 21, 2008 at 4:16 PM. Reason : .]

8/21/2008 4:14:58 PM

But Obama is regarded as one of the best public speakers since Reagan or even JFK...maybe he's just one of the best public readers

8/21/2008 4:21:06 PM

wlb, where have i EVER used that as a talking point for mccain?

8/21/2008 4:22:11 PM

I disagree. I think McCain does really well on the fly. Check out the recent forum with Warren as the most recent example or his numerous town hall meetings. Like most politicians (including Obama) he occasionally makes mistakes off-prompter, but his delivery is usually fast and solid (if we're just talking rhetorical skill).

McCain is worst when he is trying to deliver a canned speech. It always seems like he's just reading the speech. He puts emphasis on the wrong parts of the sentence, etc.

Obama is kind of the mirror image of McCain as a speaker. He actually does really well reading a speech off a teleprompter. Indeed, even at most of his "townhalls" he has the assistance of the prompter. But when he isn't reading pre-prepared remarks he spends too much time searching for words. That's where you get the "umms and ahhs" that were on display at the Warren Forum and many of his debates with Hill back in the primaries. In this regard, if anyone reminds me of GW in terms of speaking, it's def Obama. They both do much better on script than off it (of course, Obama still out performs Dubya onscript).

8/21/2008 4:23:14 PM

Quote :

"It appears that you don't understand the meaning of "entitlements"."

well then enlighten me, internet yoda. your post as stated has absolutely no basis to work off of.

8/21/2008 4:25:35 PM

Your quote was talking about individual candidates and their perceived sense of entitlement.

eyedrb Was referring to entitlement programs such as SS, medicare, medicaid, welfare, etc, which never seem to die out but rather get bigger as time goes on. This contrasts with war expenditures which are temporary. Obama frequently cites the "cost savings through ending the war early" that will pay for the huge expansion of entitlements that he has spelled out in his platform. This is disingenuous, since 1-time savings cannot possibly pay for a never-ending spending program.

Does this help?

8/21/2008 4:48:25 PM

ahh yes, it does help. Thanks.

Both usages of the word seem to work, although admittedly I took the least comprehensive of the two for sure!

8/21/2008 4:59:15 PM

It's no law of nature that entitlement spending must increase and increase.

8/21/2008 5:08:23 PM

btw I think we all know which candidate is the most similar to Dubya

8/21/2008 5:27:07 PM

That's an awesome picture.

8/21/2008 5:52:34 PM

Quote :

"GoldenViper: It's no law of nature that entitlement spending must increase and increase."

while it's true that entitlement spending can be decreased, it does tend to increase. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_effect:

Quote :

"Garrett Hardin, a biologist and environmentalist who also wrote of the 'tragedy of the commons', used the phrase to describe how food aid keeps alive people who would otherwise die in a famine. They live and multiply in better times, making another bigger crisis inevitable, since the supply of food has not been increased. The same point was made by Thomas Malthus in 1798. Austrian school economist Robert Higgs has also used the term to describe the seemingly irreversible expansion of government in times of crisis in his book Crisis and Leviathan."

8/21/2008 6:01:59 PM

8/22/2008 8:51:23 AM

haha cute graphic. But I seriously doubt this story will hold traction.

1) it is not on video so it's less effective in negative ads (a still picture with scratchy audio doesn't have the same punch),

2) McCain is just not generally thought of as a rich guy (I've liked McCain for a long time and had no idea he was as rich as he is), so it will take alot to overcome existing preconceptions,

3) It's hard for Obama to play the class warfare card (which rarely works anyways, ask Al Gore) when he isn't exactly Joe Sixpack himself. Or as McCain spokesperson Brian Rogers said, "Does a guy who made more than $4 million last year, just got back from vacation on a private beach in Hawaii and bought his own million-dollar mansion with the help of a convicted felon really want to get into a debate about houses? "

No, I am not worried about this at all.

But what should worry Dems is that Obama is being openly hypocritical. As Paul Krugman pointed out today on his blog (and a lot of people on this board pointed out yesterday), these are actually Cindy McCain's homes. It's also Cindy McCain's wealth that Obama is mocking. But I thought Obama said wives were off-limits? Or did he really just mean his wife (whom McCain has never attacked)? I guess Obama has less class than y'all thought.

[Edited on August 22, 2008 at 11:26 AM. Reason : haha!]

8/22/2008 11:22:12 AM