^^^^^

Yes, you're right, BOs usually are just the "structures", not what units and when. I think it's more of shorthand. It's alot easier to type "9 -pylon" instead of writing that giant wall of text above outlining the units (see my above post).

Building gatherers: you need to be building workers the ENTIRE game (the only exception is super late game). Here's why: maynarding workers - what you want is full mineral saturation (in sc2 it's 2 SCVs per mineral patch and 3 SCVs for the geysers, in sc1 it's like 1.6 SCVs per patch or something). "Saturation" means the most efficient distribution of resource-gatherers. So, what you'll find is, as you expand, you'll be able to maynard (move) plenty of workers over to the new expo and quickly start mining. You want as many bases as you can saturated. Simply maynard as you expand and/or get mined out! Generally, once you get to ~ 60 harvesters, it's probably overkill unless the map is HUGE! Of course, it can be hard to know in game if you're at this point.

As far as units: this is 100% scouting. You MUST scout! It will probably be the most important factor you'll ever learn to really start getting better. Here's how I do it:

When I build my first depot/pylon I shift command the SCV to scout into the enemy base. I usually am macroing with my hotkeys, so I click all over their base in loops to make a few passes. Then, after a couple loops around their base, I shift-command the SCV to grab a Xel'Naga watchtower on the way back. This helps detect incoming waves of units.

Here's a scenario of scouting that I use every time I play: during the initial scout, look for a spawning pool if you're playing a zerg enemy. If you get your initial scout in and the pool is almost done, brace yourself, cuz you're about to get rushed. Wall off if you can as terran, but get ready for intense micro regardless. Use your food/supply counter as a gauge of the enemy supply. 6 pool is all-in rush. 10-pool is later rush, but more units coming (definnitely wall off). Anything later and it won't really be a rush from zerg. For Protoss enemies: early 2-gate usually means early pressure.

Early gas for zerg can mean a few things:
- When I play zerg (not often), I like to get 1 extractor right before I build the pool so I can use the first 100 gas to get Ling speed quick.
- Baneling bust later on
- Roaches

Early gas for protoss can mean:
- Mass stalkers (I HATE this build, I typically do poorly against this one)

That's all that comes to mind right now. Any more questions?

[Edited on July 12, 2010 at 1:17 AM. Reason : ^s]

7/12/2010 1:06:24 AM

Wolfmarsh:

I just realized I never answered your question about the BO format:

"9-pylon" means build a pylon when your supply is @ 9. Doesn't matter what probe does it, it's more generic.

7/12/2010 1:47:45 AM

i think FE roaches into hydra/roach midgame with ultras at the end as tanks is prolly my new fav =) the 1/1 upgrade timing push with ~12 roaches ~20 hydras is just fun to do =)

7/12/2010 3:44:47 AM

Thanks for all the info!

We started to do slightly better last night, so hopefully itll keep improving.

7/12/2010 8:11:08 AM

^^^^ I'm not actually sure about the timing for terran, but I think probe scouting after the first pylon is a bit too early. The only reason I would ever do that is if I think there might be an early cheese attack coming. Otherwise, scouting after 12gate is usually my standard. Doing this will save you a few more minerals and you'll still be able to scout early enough to find out what's going on.

Also, I like to keep my probe scout inside the base or outside the ramp for as long as possible. Generally, leaving a probe by their ramp or the xel'naga near their base is a wise thing to alert you to any incoming movement.

7/12/2010 10:55:58 AM

^ As long as there's no early rushes like 6pool or 10pool, you can scout later and be fine. Scouting early also gives you the option to steal gas as well. I usually can't keep up my attention long enough to keep my scout alive and circling after a minute or two from the initial scout. I have a hard time countering cheeses and rushes, so I like to scout early.

7/12/2010 11:13:21 AM

Yeah, the issue of spending too much time controlling a probe is what I am trying to overcome now.

I find that I end up getting way far behind on my buildings/units by scouting.

I need to learn the shortcuts more so I can learn how to flip back and forth easily. I dont even know how to route the probe around in a set path like I've seen them do on the videos.

7/12/2010 11:24:58 AM

^ Put the scout on a hotkey (Cntrl + 1,2,3,4,5,6,7...). Also, hotkey your CC, Rax, Factory(s), Starports. Some people like to hotkey their wall to raise and lower.

To make waypoints: click your scout, hold shift and right click wherever you wanna go. It's good to shift click all your builders off buildings as well so they don't get stuck or whatever. I usually queue up several supply depots this way.

7/12/2010 11:33:18 AM

beaten.

[Edited on July 12, 2010 at 11:34 AM. Reason : .]

7/12/2010 11:34:03 AM

where do you all read up on strategies?

7/12/2010 12:05:18 PM

Quote :

"So, what you'll find is, as you expand, you'll be able to maynard (move) plenty of workers over to the new expo and quickly start mining. "

that's what i need to do! im such a noob at this lol.

7/12/2010 12:22:35 PM

^^ teamliquid.net, watching hdstarcraft + husky + day9 casts of pros also help...especially day9

^ I hotkey nexus to 4 which makes probe building easy. Just 4e every however many seconds it takes to build a probe.

7/12/2010 12:28:36 PM

blarg teamliquid is blocked here at work

And yes i started watching hdstarcraft last night. ill have to check those others out too.

[Edited on July 12, 2010 at 12:41 PM. Reason : *]

7/12/2010 12:39:02 PM

FYI: new players, DO NOT be lured into ripoffs like this: http://www.star2pros.com/

I'm pretty sure they're violating Blizzard's ToS. They ARE featuring screenshots from HD & Husky's vids w/o crediting them for anything. Not to mention the claims made are ridiculous! Everything that site offers is offered free by teamliquid. Some teamliquid-ers are saying this is a scam, citing that the same thing was done for WoW and WC3.

7/12/2010 12:42:08 PM

I can't believe buy that crap. If you want to get better just play games and watch replays. It's simple. Hell, even if you're stuck in copper at least you're playing with people who are on your skill level.

7/12/2010 3:15:34 PM

^ For real. I can't believe it. Of course, people fall for that Nigerian Prince scam too.

The AMM system is really nice in sc2. I like being able to find opponents of roughly equal skill

7/12/2010 5:46:15 PM

so i've decided i'm definitely buying this around release. i wish i could have beta'ed it because i'm gonna be pretty far behind

7/12/2010 5:51:40 PM

I'm having a very hard time understanding why one would build Battlecruisers over Thors...

Advantages of Thor to Battlecruiser:
- takes less time to build (60 vs 90)
- requires fewer minerals and gas (300/200 vs 400/300)
- moves faster (1.9 vs 1.4)
- deals a lot more damage to ground targets (30 vs 10)
- has a much longer reach AND splash damage against airborne targets (10 vs 6)
- special weapon deals more total damage (500 vs 300)
- no need to build a separate structure (I don't count tech lab for factory) just to produce it
- can be airlifted
- sounds like Schwarzenegger (my favorite)

Advantages of Battlecruiser to Thor:
- more hitpoints (550 vs 400)
- greater visual range (12 vs 11)
- can potentially start combat with greater energy with Behemoth Reactor upgrade
- is always airborne

I think that if the Thor couldn't be airlifted, then the Battlecruiser would have a huge advantage over it.

Every game I've played (the overwhelming majority of which are against the Zerg AI on Very Hard difficulty) in which I rely on Thor as my main weapon, I dig in defensively and eventually run over the AI in the endgame. My strategy is in no way anything clever, as I like to just brute force a group of 6-8 Thors along with a Ghost, Raven, and SCV repair squad not too far behind. However, when I focus on Battlecruisers, they create such a huge drain on resources and don't perform nearly as well in combat that the computer can set me WAY back. I can't help but feel like Thor is overpowered, and I like it this way.

7/12/2010 6:11:48 PM

^ I agree thors are awesome, never built a BC in a ladder yet!

7/12/2010 6:14:40 PM

I'm pretty sure the battlecruiser is more dps to ground and air targets, the damage per shot is lower but the BC attacks fast as hell. Thors are good against light air but suck against armored and massive air units. Thors require an armory as well so they do require an additional building.

7/12/2010 6:18:22 PM

good lord, went 0-4 tonight in 2v2s. Got owned in every way imagineable!

7/12/2010 9:34:18 PM

I was so close to making silver last night and lost three rounds in a row. Now I'm at least 10 games away from silver...grrrr.... but I still love this game.

7/13/2010 8:35:48 AM

I'm silver 2v2 right now and last night we played almost exclusively platinums and diamonds. Lost all 4 games I played, but only went down 6 pts total I think. When we win against those players, we go up +40 pts per game, usually. Kinda ruins the whole 50-50 record thing the AMM system is supposed to do.

[Edited on July 13, 2010 at 10:15 AM. Reason : ]

7/13/2010 10:15:08 AM

thanks to those who recommended day9

7/13/2010 10:47:43 AM

day9 is very entertaining and informative. i'm gonna +1 on the thanks for the recommendation

7/13/2010 1:17:22 PM

ditto

i like HDStarcraft but that guy can get annoying

7/13/2010 1:26:28 PM

Love how you can almost auto-win any game from 3pm-8ish but after about 3AM the competition ramps up drastically, right when you start to get tired =P

7/13/2010 1:40:56 PM

how far back is korea on time? is 3 AM korean primetime?

7/13/2010 2:05:10 PM

no clue but i do get a lot of ppl with slow ass connections/comps and uncapitalized names who are super aggressive lol

7/13/2010 2:22:39 PM

In case you guys haven't already found it, here's the link to all of Day9's casts (153 total I believe).

http://day9tv.blip.tv

7/13/2010 2:54:36 PM

Played another Very Hard AI Zerg last night, and it was so much fun. Over 1:10 later, I had 1,187 kills with a total group of 6 siege tanks, 3 medevacs, about 30 marines, and 30 Thors. The marines didn't do anything other than sit in their bunkers and guard the base. I lost one group of 8 Thors due to being separated from their repair escort, but I didn't lose any more. The thing which amuses me the most is that even in a Zergling rush of insane numbers, they still don't think to kill the SCV's first.

AI tactics are very inconsistent from what I've seen so far. Sometimes it builds Ultralisks like it's going out of style, and other times I won't see a single one. I didn't even know Zerg had a unit capable of controlling friendly units until I saw a single one of these a few games ago.

Reckon I'll see what I can do with Battlecruisers now.

7/13/2010 4:44:33 PM

I asked on the other page but does anyone have a spare beta key?

7/13/2010 5:13:58 PM

^ 'fraid not. Was hoping I'd get a handful of keys w/ the start of phase 2, but, sadly it hasn't happened yet

7/13/2010 5:50:01 PM

Quote :

"I'm pretty sure the battlecruiser is more dps to ground and air targets, the damage per shot is lower but the BC attacks fast as hell. Thors are good against light air but suck against armored and massive air units. Thors require an armory as well so they do require an additional building."

Yeah, but I consider an armory a mandatory build. (Bear in mind, this is against the AI.) The Fusion Core doesn't benefit anything other than the Battlecruiser, so I feel like it's strictly optional. I sometimes build 2 armories so I can upgrade faster.

Played again twice tonight attempting to focus on Battlecruisers instead of Thors and got smeared. Same build order, same placement on the same map, roughly the same number of forces. The pattern I see now is that the AI makes at least 3 HUGE pushes at midgame, and if you can survive those, then you're in great shape. Having 6 Battlecruisers hovering over the base choke point (the kill zone for 6 siege tanks and 2 bunkers) didn't help a bit. Whereas 6 Thors (at 3rd level weapons and armor) have been able to hold the choke point, the Battlecruisers (also at 3rd level weapons and armor) just don't deal damage fast enough against a comparable rush of about 50 mixed Zerg units (mainly Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches with a few Hydralisks and Corruptors). I guess I ought to take some screenshots next time I mess around with this. I wish I could freeze the game just to take a head count.

7/14/2010 12:01:56 AM

Why not just watch the replay and use the built in tools to tell you how many of each unit?

7/14/2010 1:29:11 AM

^^ It sounds like you're trying to use BCs as a midgame unit. They are late game units. Your resources are getting spread really thin when you have full upgrades + 6 BCs. You can't really support your BCs with any ground. Try going Thors into BCs. Wait until you get at least a third expansion before you decide to make the switch.

7/14/2010 9:48:18 AM

Quote :

"Why not just watch the replay and use the built in tools to tell you how many of each unit?"

'Cause I... uh... never thought of that! I've yet to mess with the replay system, but I'll see what that's like.

7/14/2010 10:04:46 AM

^ It's infinitely better than sc1. You can view army, production, units lots, resources, apm, income/harvesters. FF and RW. It's MUCH improved!

7/14/2010 11:18:28 AM

i think i have a decent idea of what to try to do in all the various protoss matchups so i might not be that far behind when the game releases even though i didn't get to play the beta

7/14/2010 10:43:15 PM

Back to 13gas/pool for splings into muta midgame for me. Couldn't stay away from the mobility. God that initial harass makes expanding so easy.

7/15/2010 3:48:41 AM

Reading this thread makes me want to play...samething happened with Warcraft 3, but I just suck at RTS games.

In other news:

Quote :

"New York is 12 hours ahead of Seoul, South Korea. Therefore, if it 7:30pm, Thursday in Seoul, it is 7:30am, Friday in New York City. If its 6:30pm, Friday in Seoul, its 6:30am, Saturday in New York City. If its 4:20pm, Saturday in Seoul, its 4:20am, Sunday in New York City. If its 4pm, Sunday in Seoul, its 4am, Monday in New York City. I hope this information is very helpful. Good luck "

7/15/2010 6:50:58 AM

vortex nuke combo ftw

7/15/2010 11:43:49 AM

12 days

7/15/2010 12:21:02 PM

Anyone else doing midnight release?

7/15/2010 6:47:04 PM

I am extremely tempted since I don't have to be at work early the next day.

7/15/2010 6:57:40 PM

My friend and I were joking about it but I don't think that'll happen for me.

7/15/2010 7:12:19 PM

idt gamestops are having midnight releases

at least not the one in raleigh i preordered at...

7/15/2010 7:30:38 PM

i pre-ordered at cary towne and they said to show up between 6pm-9pm on 26th to get a receipt and then pick it up at crossroads at midnight

7/15/2010 7:40:34 PM

Apparently Blizzard revealed that you can download the sc2 client TODAY, and just activate it on launch day!

http://starcraft.incgamers.com/blog/comments/starcraft-ii-available-to-download/

I'm still going for the box copy though. If you're a digital DL fan, and haven't pre-ordered, maybe this is for you!

I have a bad feeling a credit card is going to eventually be required to be attached to your battlenet account.....I hope I'm wrong!

7/15/2010 8:05:59 PM

Man I enjoy Day9 casts but how about some damn Zerg. It seems that 90% of his casts are protoss and terran

7/16/2010 8:48:33 AM