Statistically there is no argument.

When a QB who gets sacked a lot changes teams, he still gets sacked a lot.

When a QB who does not get sacked a lot changes teams, he continues to not get sacked a lot.


This isn't even an argument. Every QB gets sacked a couple times a year on a blown block. That happens to everyone so it balances out.

The sacks at the margin are due to the QB hanging onto the ball. Some QB's do this on purpose like Roethlisberger. He believes the added sacks are worth it because of the extra plays he makes downfield. Other QB's like Manning have decided it's worth it to get rid of the ball instead and preserve the drive.

Bottom line, sacks at the margin are the QB's fault so awarding negative points for QB sacks makes complete sense.

9/6/2012 1:15:09 AM

^^no, i'm saying most QBs arent SB winners like Peyton and Ben...and Ben makes a lot of passes while a defender is clinging to his legs

those guys are the exceptions, they've both won Super Bowls (Ben has won 2)...I'm saying the O-Line is very important...with all of Romo's spin moves tonight to avoid sacks (to your point), the Cowboys offensive line can't match the Giants d-line for 60 minutes...don't blame Dallas's o-line if JPP just acts like JPP and gets a sack...its not necessarily Romo's fault

Quote :

"The sacks at the margin are due to the QB hanging onto the ball."

what if they're hanging onto the ball because nobody is open?

[Edited on September 6, 2012 at 1:16 AM. Reason : .]

9/6/2012 1:15:23 AM

so I factor in who a QB is playing that week into if I start them or not... and the pass rushing ability of the other team DEFINITELY plays into that... and if you CAN measure that, which obviously you can, then why not use it?

Its like saying its not fair that Chris Johnson has to run against Pittsburgh's defense rather than Cleveland's so therefore you shouldnt count negative rushing plays against a RB's yardage

Are you telling me that rushing yards dont depend on the o-line, of course they do, but we still use rushing yards

holding on to the ball because no one is open? - throw it away, its a QB skill set


[Edited on September 6, 2012 at 1:19 AM. Reason : d]

9/6/2012 1:18:09 AM

Quote :

"holding on to the ball because no one is open? - throw it away, its a QB skill set"

yet your scoring system penalizes a QB for incompletions, even if an incompletion is the right decision on a particular play

9/6/2012 1:22:40 AM

If no one is open the correct play is to throw the ball away.

Just take a quick look at the league leaders in sacks taken. It's no coincidence that most of the top QB's are at the very top of the list of sacks taken and the worst QB's are at the bottom.

If you account for sacks per passing attempt the numbers get even more strikingly obvious.


Good QB's make good reads. Bad QB's make bad reads. Period.

9/6/2012 1:23:40 AM

its a lot less than a sack, which is the point.

9/6/2012 1:23:46 AM

i just dont agree with arbitrarily penalizing QBs for incomplete passes...if they make a shitty throw, ok, thats on them...if a WR drops it or if nobody is open and pressure is coming, its a wise choice, yet they get penalized the same in your scoring format

9/6/2012 1:25:03 AM

that happens some, but it would even out across everyone all season, and like I said, the top WRs drop 4%... so while that 4% may not be the QBs fault, I would rather capture the other 96% than just totally ignore QB accuracy. Hell, if the drop percentage was 49%, which is more than double the worst player in the league, I would still rather capture QB accuracy than just ignore it.

and in case you missed it:
Are you telling me that rushing yards dont depend on the o-line, of course they do, but we still use rushing yards


o-line has a LOT more impact on rushing yards for a RB but we still count it. If you just arent used to using it, thats fine, but dont make it out to be some weird, wacky, illogical scoring system, just agree that its different from what you are used to and move on.


[Edited on September 6, 2012 at 1:34 AM. Reason : d]

9/6/2012 1:26:28 AM

one of my points is both you and face use crazy ass scoring metrics that you think are more realistic (may or may not be) yet yall think you're the authority in a thread where 99% of people use standard yahoo or espn league scoring rules

9/6/2012 1:34:23 AM

because the "standard" changes all the time. PPR wasnt around originally and now the majority of leagues use it. The sacks and incompletion options have been available in the league setup on yahoo, for example, for probably at least 12 years if not more, I cant remember it not being there, and they wouldnt have had it on there if it wasnt used by people.

Every draft tool I have ever seen where you enter your league's scoring has it as an option... once again, wouldnt be on there if it was some totally weird, "crazy ass" odd stat, which I definitely dont count completion percentage as...



[Edited on September 6, 2012 at 1:40 AM. Reason : d]

9/6/2012 1:36:37 AM

PPR and non-PPR are two very, very standard options

in the vast majority of leagues though, QBs get penalized for throwing picks (or fumbling the ball and losing it)

not saying your league rules are wrong, just that they're not typical and don't act like they're better than everybody elses

9/6/2012 1:44:01 AM

PPR and non PPR are now, but originally, most leagues didnt use it.


And you were the one saying ours was wrong... I just said our was more complete, it doesnt ignore QB accuracy. Other systems arent wrong, just more basic.

[Edited on September 6, 2012 at 1:46 AM. Reason : d]

9/6/2012 1:45:34 AM

i think yours is wrong, but i understand leagues have different scoring formats

you made the thread, just recognize that most people asking for advice in this thread arent using your rules

9/6/2012 1:47:12 AM

well out of the three league totals I saw for Romo tonight in here, one was 42, one was 26.74 and mine was 24. Obviously a small sample size but 2 out of 3...

9/6/2012 1:50:03 AM

obviously a tiny sample size

but that didnt stop you from dropping a top-200 player for a flash-in-the-pan wideout

9/6/2012 1:52:13 AM

troll troll, already explained that. You used to be above obvious trolling.

9/6/2012 1:53:19 AM

someone disagrees with me...must be trolling

9/6/2012 1:54:40 AM

no, you are bringing up part of a discussion that we have already have, and only the part that fits your argument and conveniently leaving out the "only if you have nothing to lose" part.

but since you arent trolling and just have horrible short term memory, I will help you:

so why dont we just leave it at if YOU (the person reading this who knows the specifics of your own league) have nothing to lose go ahead and pick him up if you want, if YOU (the person reading this who knows the specifics of your own league) do, then dont.


[Edited on September 6, 2012 at 1:56 AM. Reason : d]

9/6/2012 1:55:37 AM

you have nothing to lose by drafting 2 or 3 defenses

doesnt mean i'm not gonna input my opinion in this thread that i dont think its the right strategy

9/6/2012 1:58:32 AM

if there is a benefit to drafting 2 or 3 (once again the person reading this who knows the specifics their league is the best to make this decision) and you have nothing to lose then do it.

obviously if there is NOTHING to gain from it, (based on your knowledge of your league) and you have nothing to lose, then why do it.



but if I get ANYTHING for Ogletree, even a 13th round draft pick next year, and then can STILL get Cassel or an equivalent QB if I need it, why not do it? whats the problem? why would I not do it?




[Edited on September 6, 2012 at 2:05 AM. Reason : d]

9/6/2012 1:59:41 AM

if i had foolishly picked up ogletree tonight during the game, i'd rather keep him than trade him for a worthless 13th round pick next year

9/6/2012 2:05:17 AM

ok, then if he continues to be good enough to stay on your roster then you would have also made the correct decision... either way, if there was NO risk why not do it?

[Edited on September 6, 2012 at 2:08 AM. Reason : d]

9/6/2012 2:06:59 AM

same reason whatever tweet you read called out 1.1 million people who would probably do it

9/6/2012 2:09:12 AM

nope, your selective memory fails again.... it said how many would drop a PROVEN player to get him, meaning a player you could count on for fantasy points every week.

A QB riding my bench that would never start baring injury AND that I could still pick up if there is an injury (or a player on the same level) isnt what he meant. Once again, if there is NO risk, why not do it? If the ONLY scenario that would lead to me starting him could still be satisfied by grabbing him back (or someone on the same level), why not do it?



[Edited on September 6, 2012 at 2:13 AM. Reason : d]

9/6/2012 2:11:46 AM

Quote :

"where the hell is Panthro"

9/6/2012 2:18:20 AM

Ogletree might be a very good pickup.

Dallas has had 2 of the best WR free agent pickups in all of FFL the last three years.

Perhaps you've heard of Laurent Robinson and Miles Austin who both became studs out of nowhere.

Also, picking up Victor Cruz was a pretty good decision last year.

9/6/2012 2:22:27 AM

nope face, you dumb son of a bitch, dont you know there is ZERO chance that will happen, and even more importantly, there is ZERO chance anyone else might think that could possibly happen. Furthermore, there is so little of a chance, that even if you could take a shot at it for nothing, you still shouldnt do it. The 2 seconds it takes to hit "add player" isnt worth the time.

9/6/2012 2:24:37 AM

Quote :

"Guessing the over/under on owners dropping proven commodities for Kevin Ogletree will be 1.1 million after tonight."

9/6/2012 2:29:12 AM

There you go, knew you could do it!

9/6/2012 2:35:53 AM

seems like the only real solution to me giving fantasy advice of not overreacting to week 1 studs and you vehemently defending them is to wait a few weeks to see what ogletree's production amounts to

if he does even alright the next few weeks, your pickup is correct...if he fades away and doesnt do much, my criticism is valid...but theres not much else we can argue about until he plays some more games

9/6/2012 2:40:33 AM

Nope. Wrong again. One more time, if I had anything to lose by him, then you would be right, we would have to see how he does. But, once again, I don't have anything to lose. So if we wait a few weeks and he is good and I kept him or if we wait a few weeks and I got something for him, then great. If not, I am still right where I was before.

9/6/2012 2:44:27 AM

lol, i concede the argument by saying time will tell, and you still tell me i'm wrong

fuck off, where is Panthro

9/6/2012 2:47:46 AM

No you didn't. Because I agree with you that this was PROBABLY an outlier, he probably won't have a game like this again. So basing things on his results will not settle anything, because we both predict the same results. But, since I gave up nothing, I have a chance of profiting IF he proves us both wrong and stays a viable fantasy WR option, or, even if he doesn't but someone else thinks he might, then I would profit.

9/6/2012 2:53:09 AM

The benefits of getting up before everyone else in your league, grabbing Ogletree as a FA and dropping Greg Little.

9/6/2012 6:48:14 AM

I wouldn't admit to having Greg Little on my team.

9/6/2012 7:00:26 AM

rashad jennings or jeremy maclin for flex

9/6/2012 8:02:31 AM

wow, this got a bit off topic for a while huh?

^I think it's a toss up, Jennings will see quite a bit of playing time and CLE pass D is pretty solid but the Eagles have a lot of weapons.

Giving QBs negative points for sacks, much less incompletions, is the dumbest scoring system I've ever heard of. And if you don't think the O-line has any responsibility for sacks, check out the Texans starting offensive line the year they set the league record for sacks allowed. Any familar names? Didn't think so.

9/6/2012 8:42:08 AM

It might be stupid but you're supposed to take these things into consideration when you assemble your team. I am playing in a fantasy baseball league where both Wins and Losses are a stat category for pitching. In most leagues picking a good pitcher on a bad team means you miss out on Wins but in this league it means you miss out on Wins and get Losses as an additional punishment. Therefore people try to avoid pitchers on bad teams. In your case, you should avoid QBs with bad O-lines.

9/6/2012 9:01:01 AM

Eesh...hope this isn't a the start of a bad year for Cruz. Mother fucker looked like Terrel Owens out there...dropping balls left at right. NO SALSA FOR YOU!

9/6/2012 9:04:37 AM

Should I start Deangelo over Sproles since Stewart is going to be either limited or out against the Bucs?

9/6/2012 9:57:00 AM

I stay away from Panthers RBs for this reason, you never know when you can use them. I would say the only way that I would feel safe starting Williams this week would be if Stewart was a definite out/inactive. Remember, they got Tolbert for a reason. Sproles would be the safer play in all other situations.

9/6/2012 10:26:45 AM

^^ Depends on your league scoring. If PPR, then I'd go Sproles. But if it's a standard league and JStew is definitely out then I'd have to lean towards starting DeAngelo. Lots of RB's in NO, without JStew you know DeAngelo is going to get the majority of the carries.

9/6/2012 11:05:46 AM

Also stay away from Panther's RBs because Cam is going to get a ton of carries inside the 10 and at the goal line.

9/6/2012 11:08:10 AM

^ I'm thinking Tolbert gets some of those goalline carries this season.

IMO, if ppr then go sproles definitely. If non ppr and stewart is definitely out, then I'd start DeAngelo.

9/6/2012 11:13:23 AM

I like Jonathan Stewart this year especially in PPR leagues.

Stewart should average over 5 yards per carry again and has the ability to break long runs for TD's. The Panthers run the ball a lot and Stewart is a good receiver. Also, Deangelo is pushing 30 and is injury prone. Stewart could easily end up as the feature back.

If he stays healthy I've got him around 700 rushing, 400 receiving, 5-6 total TD's.

He could easily beat that though if Deangelo goes down.

9/6/2012 12:04:57 PM

Quote :

"If he stays healthy I've got him around 700 rushing, 400 receiving, 5-6 total TD's. "

Again, where are you pulling these player projections from?


Flex spot ppr: Nate Washington, Torrey Smith or Toby Gerhart?

9/6/2012 1:19:27 PM

Believe it or not, some folks devise their own projection instead of being slaves to Matthew Berry

Torrey Smith

9/6/2012 1:40:14 PM

^^ I concur w/Torrey Smith. If he turns out to be a bust this year I'm in trouble in my one league that matters.

9/6/2012 1:44:49 PM

there are projections all over the internet. I look at ESPN's to see what the people in nost of my leagues will be using but i dont use their numbers for projections because i havent found them to be particularly reliable over the years.

Granted, this is a very inexact science. I just go with people who i think are better than the average bear.


I don't think Ogletree is a complete fluke, but the Giants secondary is kinda shaky and their pass rush wasn't cutting it last night. Coe in particular was just a whipping boy last night. On Ogletree's 2nd TD the Giants weren't even trying to stay with him so I think maybe the corner thought he had safety help...

9/6/2012 1:52:00 PM

Quote :

"Believe it or not, some folks devise their own projection instead of being slaves to Matthew Berry"

Oh really????

Quote :

"there are projections all over the internet. I look at ESPN's to see what the people in nost of my leagues will be using but i dont use their numbers for projections because i havent found them to be particularly reliable over the years. Granted, this is a very inexact science. I just go with people who i think are better than the average bear."

The reason I asked was that these statements reminded me of this http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=433379&page=2

I've seen you do it before, the "well I have them....."

Frankly, I think projections are for suckers. There are much better way to make fantasy line up decisions (matchups, depth charts, touches/game, etc.) but hey, whatever floats your boat.

9/6/2012 2:07:59 PM