http://deadspin.com/5946112/the-lingerie-football-league-announces-that-it-fired-a-couple-crews-which-apparently-are-now-officiating-in-the-nfl-because-of-incompetence

I'd been wondering where these replacement refs came from.

9/25/2012 5:11:05 AM

9/25/2012 6:33:09 AM

The simultaneous catch was a tough call to make live.

The blown OPI was obvious though.

9/25/2012 7:04:53 AM

Tough call either way because they can't review possession with replay

Hopefully Wilson gets some good exposure this week

9/25/2012 7:15:15 AM

Quote :

"seriously though this is going to make sports radio unbearable for the rest of the week"

Yup. At least they won't be going on and on about whether the Buccaneers should have gone for the ball when the Giants were kneeling to kill the clock. At least this is a real issue and relentless chatter could potentially get the real refs back quicker.

9/25/2012 7:18:30 AM

Quote :

"bubba watson @bubbawatson All @nfl fans watch the Ryder Cup this week, we got no refs. #USA"

9/25/2012 9:03:32 AM

There's a poll on ESPN about whether you feel any sympathy for the replacement refs. Wisconsin is the only state to say no.

9/25/2012 10:17:13 AM

id feel no sympathy for the guy that went for the interception with no time on the clock instead of knocking it down

9/25/2012 10:46:25 AM

It's not the nel's fault, it's the refs. Holding out because you don't get a pension to work 17 days a year? Who gets pensions anyways

9/25/2012 10:47:13 AM

Except that on Sunday a batted down hail mary gets caught for a TD.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

That entire final drive was complete and utter horseshit though. The Seahawks never should've been in that position in the first place. It's a shame, both the Packers and the Seahawks deserved better.

9/25/2012 10:51:11 AM

Quote :

"It's not the nel's fault, it's the refs. Holding out because you don't get a pension to work 17 days a year? Who gets pensions anyways"

The NFL should have full time refs regardless. But at the end of the day you're paid based on the value you bring to the table not how much or hard you work. If you only work less than a months worth of days but are essential to a product that brings in billions then yeah you get paid.

9/25/2012 10:56:03 AM

haha, even CNBC is making fun of the refs at this point

9/25/2012 11:00:17 AM

these refs should fuckin walk out on the NFL

they arent getting the appreciation they deserve

let the prisoners just play games without officials and beat each others asses for three hours week after week, until theres only like 20 healthy players left and crown them the super bowl champions


...actually thats kind of a cool idea

9/25/2012 11:20:24 AM

NFL "official statement" on the ref's fuckup last night:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/46855/full-nfl-statement-on-packers-seahawks

Quote :

"The result of the game is final. "

i'm not even going to copy/paste the whole thing because it's basically just a transcript of all the instant replay shots, plus a quote from the rulebook.

weak

[Edited on September 25, 2012 at 12:51 PM. Reason : \/ ಠ_ಠ you know what i mean]

9/25/2012 12:49:18 PM

yea those silly rules

Quote :

"When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball."

that was immediately apparently to me upon the first replay, i am baffled that is so hard for people to understand everyone is worried about how far in the guys tits the ball is

Quote :

"Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3 of the NFL Rule Book defines a catch: A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds: (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and (c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.). When a player (or players) is going to the ground in the attempt to catch a pass, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 states: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete. Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball."

its actually an important rule, but everyone is too worried about being a comedian and piling in on the scab refs

nothin about putting the ball in your chest versus possessing the ball with arms outstretched. Simply irrelevant

once the guys hit the damn ground, neither receivers hands left the ball or loosened or anything, tate did one hell of a fucking job in keeping the possession honestly

[Edited on September 25, 2012 at 12:57 PM. Reason : e]

9/25/2012 12:51:02 PM

You missed this very important section of that rule

Quote :

" It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. "

Control is different from a catch.

9/25/2012 1:44:37 PM

Jennings controlled the ball before Tate. Tate only had one hand on the ball as they were falling. Once on the ground, Tate wrestles with Jennings to jointly possess the ball. But Jennings' definitely controlled it first.

[Edited on September 25, 2012 at 2:05 PM. Reason : Basically, what ^ said.]

9/25/2012 2:04:48 PM

Quote :

"tate did one hell of a fucking job in keeping the possession never possessing the ball honestly"

9/25/2012 2:35:48 PM

Joe Mays suspended for hit on Schaub that wasn't even penalized. I wouldn't be surprised to see Ryan Mundy catch a suspension for the hit on Heyward-Bay.

This is the league trying to take control of the game after the fact because of the ineptitude of the replacement refs. Players are trying to get away with stuff they never would have done with the normal officials in the game so the league is having to deal with it after the fact.

This is a clear giveaway that even the league thinks the replacement refs are doing a shit job.

9/25/2012 2:48:29 PM

^^

[Edited on September 25, 2012 at 2:49 PM. Reason : .]

9/25/2012 2:49:09 PM

^^ the Schaub hit was penalized

9/25/2012 4:54:38 PM

Eh, so it was. My mistake.

9/25/2012 4:56:58 PM

Quote :

"REPLACEMENT REFS PROMO!!! 8-4 LAST 2 SUNDAYS WE ARE 108-79 LAST 48 DAYS. DID YOU HAVE GB? WE HAD UNDER, SIGN UP TODAY FOR SCAB REF PROMO! 1 WEEK FOR ONLY $59 REPLACEMENT REF SPECIAL - BUY 3 DAYS AT $59 AND GET 7 DAYS. WIN YOUR GB MONEY BACK WITH US. IF YOU CAN'T BEAT'EM JOIN US! DON'T BET ON YOUR OWN-YOU'LL LOSE CLICK HERE TO SIGN UP NOW! >>"

9/25/2012 5:03:40 PM

no one is even talking about the cheap shot on greg jennings that went unflagged! (he only got flagged b/c of the ensuing scuffle, not the original cheap shot)

or the chop block in the raiders game that almost killed the guy!

What the hell is going on out there jesus

9/25/2012 5:22:48 PM

yay! real refs are back!


sorry Doug, you have to go back to work at the deli

9/26/2012 1:55:11 PM

If they really do close a deal soon then ive got two fairly obvious predictions.

1: The first weekend of play with the old refs is gonna be a disciplinefest. The players have gotten into bad habits and if the refs don't clamp down immediately they won't regain control.

2: It'll be two to three weeks before some fans start a "Replacements were better" chant or something similar. Philly is an obvious choice for this, but I'm going to go for maximum troll and say it happens in Green Bay.

9/26/2012 2:18:58 PM

aw no more Mr. Bean with the baby talk voice ref

[Edited on September 26, 2012 at 2:20 PM. Reason : e]

9/26/2012 2:20:49 PM

^^ very astute post, very Faceian. I agree and applaud you

9/26/2012 3:05:55 PM

relax guys, we'll still have at least one more week of the lingerie league refs

9/26/2012 3:34:16 PM

^^ was it really face level? I declared troll twice in that post, face usually tries to act serious.

[Edited on September 26, 2012 at 3:43 PM. Reason : .]

9/26/2012 3:42:58 PM

BigHitSunday is 100% right.

You have to secure the ball AND touch ghe ground AND perform a move common to the game INDEPENDENTLY of another player.

Plenty of players catch passes one handed and secure control. That ball was in three hands and then four before being secured by both players.

Pass comes in hitting both GB hands and left SEA hand. As GB pulls ball towards chest SEA wraps right hand onto ball. Both hit ground with four hands on the ball and remain that way when the whistle is blown. Ref on left had bad angle and calls int.

Simultaneous catch. TD. This is actually a very good call.

That being said, the pass interference was obviously missed.

9/26/2012 4:49:18 PM

^Read the rule again:

Quote :

"Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.""

Control =/= Possession

Green Bay player controlled it first.

[Edited on September 26, 2012 at 4:56 PM. Reason : s]

9/26/2012 4:56:29 PM

Right, I get what you are saying. You cannot say GB had control first. There were three hands on that ball. As the GB player falls and pulls the ball toward him that ball is being pulled downward and toward the SEA player as well. One hand is sufficient, as bhs pointed out. There is no control INDEPENDENTLY secured.

9/26/2012 5:05:54 PM

In what way did Golden Tate ever control that ball or come close to what could be considered a catch?

9/26/2012 5:43:50 PM

Tate had a hand on the ball...but nowhere near enough to say that he "controlled" it. Especially considering Jennings had both hands on the ball.

9/26/2012 5:57:51 PM

Guys, this is fairly straightforward.

A football is spiraling in. GB player and SEA player jump at the same time.

SEA has left arm inside of the arms of the GB player.

As the ball comes in, the GB player's hands close in on the sides of the ball at the exact same time that the SEA player's left hand wraps it from underneath/behind.

At this point both players are falling to the ground, neither of which having INDEPENDENTLY secured control of the ball.

During this fall, the SEA player begins wrapping his right arm around and right hand onto the ball. At the SAME TIME the GB player is pulling the ball toward his chest. Keep in mind, the rules for catching a ball do not mention anything about pulling toward the chest or two hands trumping one hand or any of that nonsense.

Both players have both of their hands on the ball as they both hit the ground at the same time. At this point, it is simultaneous CONTROL.

Both players lay on the ground. Both players have both of their hands on the ball. Both players have SIMULTANEOUSLY satisfied A, B and C of the catch rule. THIS part of the rule has to be determined BEFORE you move DOWN the rule list to the simultaneous catch rule.

This is the reason the NFL upheld the call. This is the reason the NFL Officiating Department (not replacement refs) upheld the call.

You guys are looking at the fact that the GB player has more hands on the ball than the SEA player as if this somehow defines control. You cannot DEFINITIVELY say which of those players has more control. Watch pretty much any Brandon Lloyd catch if you want some insight into ONE handed control & catches.

Neither player INDEPENDENTLY satisfied clause A, B and C (all three have to be met). The ball stopped spinning when BOTH players hands were on it. Both players were pulling the ball in a direction and DOWN toward the ground. You can watch the football in the GB hands move downward from the INSIDE of the ring formed by the GB player's arms at the same time that it moves INWARD by the force of the GB player's hands. Both players touched the ground inbounds simultaneously. Neither player INDEPENDENTLY maintained control of the ball long enough after A AND B were BOTH fulfilled long enough to perform any act common to the game. Simultaneous catch. Touchdown.

Again, if that SEA left hand had not been on the ball at the same time I'd agree with you here. You people just want to hate on the refs. I'm all for that. But do it objectively. This was the right call. It was upheld by the review. It was upheld by the officiating department. It was upheld by the NFL. The NFL wrote the rules. I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing.

Quote :

"Tate had a hand on the ball...but nowhere near enough to say that he "controlled" it. Especially considering Jennings had both hands on the ball."

That is a very subjective statement. You cannot definitively state which guy had "better" control of it. Short of pressure sensors in the gloves and ball, visually it is exactly the same. It's your OPINION that one guy had better control because he had two hands on it. You can say it's more LIKELY that he has better control. But that is probability and football officiating is not based on probability. It's not like the ref's run to the dogpile at the goalline and go "he probably scored." They have to SEE it. Same with this situation. Again, look up one handed catch highlights. Happens quite a bit.

[Edited on September 26, 2012 at 6:02 PM. Reason : jank]

9/26/2012 5:59:01 PM

Cherokee slays me. While its true that possession cannot officially occur until the the player hits the ground, to say Tate had an equal share of the ball at any point is just asinine. This wasn't a Tyrone Protho situation where he caught the ball thru the defender, with Jennings serving as a mere obstacle between Tate and the ball. Jennings had two hands on the ball with it pinned to his chest. The fact that Tate had one, two, or three hands on the ball is immaterial. When you're hugging the ball to your chest, you're the sole possessor of that ball. Otherwise every fumble in history would subject to interpretation.

9/26/2012 6:01:57 PM

By fumble, do you mean catches ruled incomplete after a subsequent hit? Because that speaks to A, B and C being not having been fulfilled.

You keep saying "he pulled it to his chest." Yes, AT THE SAME TIME that the SEATTLE player was pulling it down towards his. Just because he only had one hand pulling on it doesn't negate his EQUAL share of control.

9/26/2012 6:04:36 PM

Quote :

"Both players have both of their hands on the ball as they both hit the ground at the same time. At this point, it is simultaneous CONTROL."

And you are ignoring the part where Jennings had two hands on the ball first, and THEN Tate put his hand on the ball, barely. Jennings had what any reasonable person would call "control", even if he didn't have full possession. THEN Tate puts a hand on the ball. Reread the rule and the note about the rule.

9/26/2012 6:05:37 PM

It's really no use arguing, but I do not see how you can watch that replay and say that Tate had an equal share of that ball. He barely has a single hand on it. I am well aware that NFL WRs are able to haul in passes with a single hand. This is not one of those times though. Jennings had control of the ball. Tate did not. For reference:



Notice Jennings with two hands on the ball and Tate with his fingers (not his entire hand) on the ball.

[Edited on September 26, 2012 at 6:08 PM. Reason : d]

9/26/2012 6:07:25 PM

Well I can't change anyone's minds obviously so I'll stop. But if you objectively watch that you will see three hands wrap on that ball at one time. As BigHitSunday pointed out, two hands does not trump one hand, even if it looks like it does. The ball dips downward inside of the GB player's hands because of the Seattle player pulling on it with his left hand, the hand sharing control. They are both causing the ball to move at the same time under each of their respective force. Can't get much more simultaneous than that. The gif posted earlier in this thread a few pages ago points this out. I like how all of you claim to have some secret insight into the rules and physics of control that the NFL doesn't.

That being said, I is finished.

Oh and by the way, the ball isn't against his chest, the SEA player's arm is. The ball is in GB's hands and SEA's hand which is being pulled downward and also against GB's chest.

[Edited on September 26, 2012 at 6:11 PM. Reason : jank]

[Edited on September 26, 2012 at 6:11 PM. Reason : jank]

9/26/2012 6:09:37 PM

you guys are still talking about this catch?

9/26/2012 6:22:25 PM

People will probably be arguing about that catch for a while (every now and then it'll get brought up for years), but the big fervor over it should die down after this weekend.

9/26/2012 6:25:45 PM

i hope the seahawks make the wildcard by 1 game and green bay misses the playoffs by one game

then we can all jerk each other off for dozens of more wolfweb pages about this same play in january

9/26/2012 6:34:02 PM

Quote :

"Well I can't change anyone's minds obviously so I'll stop. But if you objectively watch that you will see three hands wrap on that ball at one time."

and that they are all on the ball at one specific time DOES NOT MATTER. That's specifically what item 5 says! If one player has "control", and then another player starts to get control, then it's NOT simultaneous. You are conflating "control" with "possession", but the rule makes it clear that those two are separate things. It is plain to see that Jennings gets two hands on the ball first (that's control), and then Tate gets a hand in. What part of "If a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control, then it's not a simultaneous catch" doesn't jive with you?

9/26/2012 7:38:19 PM

OH WE BACK

9/27/2012 1:19:06 AM

I'm having a hard time being objective because I love Russell Wilson and I won money on the seahawks but I think its possible that green bay got screwed on that call.

9/27/2012 7:20:33 AM

Regular refs to work Thursday game after agreement
BARRY WILNER, AP Pro Football Writer
Sep 27, 2012 6:51 a.m.


NEW YORK—The NFL's regular officiating crews are back. Their return couldn't have come soon enough for many players, coaches and fans.

After two days of marathon negotiations -- and mounting frustration throughout the league -- the NFL and the officials' union announced at midnight Thursday that a tentative eight-year agreement had been reached to end a lockout that began in June.

The deal came on the heels of Seattle's chaotic last-second win over Green Bay on Monday night in which the replacement officials struggled. Commissioner Roger Goodell, who was at the bargaining table Tuesday and Wednesday, said the regular officials would work the Browns-Ravens game at Baltimore on Thursday night.

"We are glad to be getting back on the field for this week's games," NFL Referees Association president Scott Green said.

And plenty of players echoed that sentiment.

"Welcome back REFS," Buffalo Bills running back C.J. Spiller tweeted shortly after the news broke.

The tentative deal must be ratified by 51 percent of the union's 121 members. They plan to vote Friday and Saturday in Dallas.

For the Packers, Redskins, Lions and other teams who voiced their displeasure with calls that might have swayed games, the agreement doesn't change their records. But after having replacements for the first three weeks, triggering a wave of outrage that threatened to disrupt the rest of the season, Titans quarterback Matt Hasselbeck probably spoke for his peers by simply echoing Spiller: "Welcome back."

The agreement hinged on working out pension and retirement benefits for the officials, who are part-time employees of the league. The tentative pact calls for their salaries to increase from an average of $149,000 a year in 2011 to $173,000 in 2013, rising to $205,000 by 2019.

Under the proposed deal, the current defined benefit pension plan will remain in place for current officials through the 2016 season or until the official earns 20 years' service. The defined benefit plan will then be frozen.

Retirement benefits will be provided for new hires, and for all officials beginning in 2017, through a defined contribution arrangement. The annual league contribution made on behalf of each game official will begin with an average of more than $18,000 per official and increase to more than $23,000 per official in 2019.

Beginning with the 2013 season, the NFL will have the option to hire a number of officials on a full-time basis to work year round, including on the field. The NFL also will be able to retain additional officials for training and development, and can assign those officials to work games. The number of additional officials will be determined by the league.

"As you know, this has to be ratified and we know very little about it, but we're excited to be back. And ready," referee Ed Hochuli told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. "And I think that's the most important message -- that we're ready."

The longest contract with on-field officials in NFL history was reached with the assistance of two federal mediators.

Replacements have been used both to play and officiate NFL games before. In 1987, the players went on strike and three games were played with replacement players. In 2001, the first week of the regular season was officiated by replacements before a deal was worked out.

One big difference: The replacements 11 years ago generally came from the highest levels of college football. These officials were from lower college divisions or other leagues such as Arena Football.

After Seattle's 14-12 victory against the Packers, their ability to call fast-moving NFL games drew mounting criticism, with ESPN analyst Jon Gruden calling their work "tragic and comical."

The Seahawks beat Green Bay on a desperation pass into the end zone on the final play. Packers safety M.D. Jennings had both hands on the ball in the end zone, and when he fell to the ground in a scrum, both Jennings and Seahawks receiver Golden Tate had their arms on the ball.

The closest official to the play, at the back of the end zone, signaled for the clock to stop, while another official at the sideline ran in and then signaled touchdown.

The NFL said in a statement Tuesday that the touchdown pass should not have been overturned -- but acknowledged Tate should have been called for offensive pass interference before the catch. The league also said there was no indisputable evidence to reverse the call made on the field.

That drew even louder howls of disbelief. Some coaches, including Miami's Joe Philbin and Cincinnati's Marvin Lewis, tried to restore some calm by instructing players not to speak publicly on the issue.

Fines against two coaches for incidents involving the replacements were handed out Wednesday.

Patriots coach Bill Belichick was docked $50,000 for trying to grab an official's arm Sunday to ask for an explanation of a call after his team lost at Baltimore. And Washington offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan was tagged for $25,000 for what the league called "abuse of officials" in the Redskins' loss to Cincinnati on Sunday. Two other coaches, Denver's John Fox and assistant Jack Del Rio, were fined Monday for incidents involving the replacements the previous week.

"I accept the discipline and I apologize for the incident," Belichick said.

Players were in no mood for apologies from anyone.

"I'll probably get in trouble for this, but you have to have competent people," Carolina receiver Steve Smith said. "And if you're incompetent, get them out of there."

And now they are out.

___

AP Sports Writers Tim Reynolds in Miami, Steve Reed in Charlotte, N.C., and R.B. Fallstrom in St. Louis contributed to this story.

___

9/27/2012 8:28:46 AM

crew for tonight's game

Quote :

"Referee Gene Steratore -- 10 years of NFL experience Umpire Bill Schuster -- 13 years Head linesman Wayne Mackie -- 6 years Line judge Jeff Seeman -- 11 years Field judge Bob Waggoner -- 16 years Side judge Jimmy DeBell -- 4 years Back judge Greg Steed -- 10 years"

9/27/2012 5:19:40 PM

it seems kind of weird seeing all the calls get made so immediately and assuredly, this game might be over before 11:30

9/27/2012 8:47:32 PM