Quote :

"1 - A driver spins on purpose. Maybe you can't prove this one... but we know he did. 2 - A car pitting several extra times for no reason, which the driver is asking the pit crew why he is even pitting, and the response is that they "need 1 point." The radio here is pretty obvious, easy one to prove. 3 - A car that intentionally drives slower on the final lap to give up a spot to a teammate. He ran his final lap 10 seconds slower than any other car on the track and his previous lap. "

2 and 3 are impossible to legislate. After a kerfluffle for one of their numerous team orders scandals in F1 where the FIA "officially banned" team orders (which thankfully I'd like to state NASCAR does not have an issue with drivers giving up wins to teammates), F1 teams have resorted to switching positions of say the driver in 2nd drives 2 seconds a lap slower and his teammate in 3rd passes him at the end of a long straightaway late in the race making it appear as though it's a racing pass for position instead of team orders, but an intelligent fan watching would know better. (It helps that the American F1 commentators are not in bed with the FIA and can say whatever they want. I'm surprised ESPN brought the controversy up and then talked with Bowyer post-race. NASCAR are normally very protective on these types of things getting out.)

The only one they can punish people on is 1, but again, you can't prove it. Even with the radio communication on Bowyer making it real thick that it was intentional with his crew chief saying "isn't your arm getting real tired?", they'll always have plausible deniability.

Teammates helping teammates is always going to happen. At last weekend's Indycar race in Baltimore, they had a double file restart mid-race with Penske driver Will Power 3rd and Ganassi driver Scott Dixon 5th. Dixon is chasing Power's teammate Helio Castroneves for the series championship. Dixon goes underneath Power into turn one and it's a street course so there's a concrete wall right next to him. Power moves over and ends up taking Dixon out of the race and himself as well. Power says afterward he had no idea he was there, he was making a move underneath the leader to get inside him in turn one. Dixon in his interview doesn't believe him at all and says Power was either moving to block him or take him out of the event. Personally, I believe that Power's pride doesn't mean he would ever intentionally remove himself from contention for the win, but it's how you as a fan can view all these things in different lights as opposed to it being a black-and-white issue.

(Re F1, the most egregious recent example is not crystal clear on whether it was orders or not but was cross-team which is definitely something that should not be allowed. A year or two ago, Sergio Perez in a Sauber was 2nd and catching the leader who was in a Ferrari. Sauber's engine supplier was Ferrari. Sauber sent Perez a radio communication saying "we need this position" and Perez promptly ran off track a bit. He came back on, finished 2nd, but never gained on the leader again.)

[Edited on September 9, 2013 at 9:18 AM. Reason : .]

9/9/2013 8:51:16 AM

Quote :

"The only one they can punish people on is 1, but again, you can't prove it."

this is sports, you dont have to "prove" anything. In soccer it's only a handball if the player intentionally touches the ball with his hands. It's a judgement call the ref has to make.

NASCAR should issue a penalty to the 15 if they want to salvage any of the small amount of credibility they have left.

9/9/2013 9:58:10 AM

Reading up on this around the internet, didn't realize at first there was more to this than the Bowyer spin. There's an amazing amount of actions that took place to get Truex into the Chase at the expense of Gordon and Newman.

I wish Wind Tunnel was still on the air, last night would've been an all-time great episode.

9/9/2013 10:01:49 AM

Quote :

"this is sports, you dont have to "prove" anything. In soccer it's only a handball if the player intentionally touches the ball with his hands. It's a judgement call the ref has to make. NASCAR should issue a penalty to the 15 if they want to salvage any of the small amount of credibility they have left."

I thought one poster elsewhere put the issue best:

"These drivers have watched NASCAR throw the yellow when it suited them, taking away wins in the process. That reality just makes it easier for teams to do the same."

9/9/2013 10:03:41 AM

^ i personally think there should be a competition caution every race with 5% of the race distance remaining but i'm sure i'm in the minority.

9/9/2013 10:17:09 AM

^ That is no less manipulative than what MWR did.

I personally always love the debris caution when Junior is the last car on the lead lap or in the Lucky Dog position.

Jenna Fryer (AP's auto racing writer) transcribing Brian Vickers' late-race radio to Twitter:

Quote :

"Jenna Fryer ?@JennaFryer 22m On Lap 396 Vickers is told he's got to pit and he replies "I've got to WHAT?" Jenna Fryer ?@JennaFryer 21m "We're probably going to pit here on green." Vickers "Are you talking to me?" "Yeah, we're going to pit." Vickers: "What? I've got to pit?" Jenna Fryer ?@JennaFryer 17m BV: "I don't understand. Pit right now?" "You've got to pit this time. We need that 1 point." BV: "10-4. Do I got a tire going down?" "Yeah" Jenna Fryer ?@JennaFryer 16m "Come down pit road right now, get a good look at it." BV: "Did you find anything?" "I'll see you after the race, Brian, I owe you a kiss.""

9/9/2013 10:45:56 AM

Quote :

"That is no less manipulative than what MWR did."

I am saying it would be part of the rules that everyone understands before the race starts it's fair for everybody. would make the races more exciting without the BS debris flags

9/9/2013 11:11:04 AM

Quote :

"I am saying it would be part of the rules that everyone understands before the race starts it's fair for everybody."

That is no less manipulative than what MWR did.

I've a better idea, let's just throw out the yellow flag every 10 laps, that way no one ever goes a lap down or gets too big a lead! The Coke 600 will end around 3 in the morning, so good ratings for Fox when they normally have infomercials running!

9/9/2013 11:19:48 AM

^they tried that at indy a few years ago. wasnt very popular

9/9/2013 11:37:06 AM

NASCAR loves what happened...you know why?

Because people are actually talking about it.

Otherwise I wouldnt be in this thread.

9/9/2013 11:40:55 AM

This is a team sport. Sometimes you do what's best for the team. Taking one for the team happens in every other sport, why should racing be any different?

FWIW, I don't think Power moved out on Dixon intentionally.

9/9/2013 12:02:11 PM

Quote :

"taking away wins in the process"

The only way to take away a win is if your car fails post race inspection

If you lead 350 laps and a caution comes out and then you get shuffled back to tenth because you only took two tires or dint pit or had a bad restart, well that's on you and your team. NASCAR didn't do it. I hate when people say " oh NASCAR took another win away from someone". Because its wrong

9/9/2013 12:07:30 PM

^^ I don't either re Power, but watching it I understand why Dixon feels that way. It was either deliberate or a very stupid mistake on Power's part, there's no other explanation.

Quote :

"If you lead 350 laps and a caution comes out and then you get shuffled back to tenth because you only took two tires or dint pit or had a bad restart, well that's on you and your team. NASCAR didn't do it. I hate when people say " oh NASCAR took another win away from someone". Because its wrong."

We're discussing phantom yellows vs. no yellow at all when it's not required. If the yellow didn't wave last night because Bowyer didn't intentionally spin, Newman would've won. He had a big enough lead. Therefore, Bowyer's spin changed the winner. Hey, if it was a wreck between two cars racing for position, them's the breaks. But that is not what happened, Bowyer intentionally spun with no damage to himself or anyone else and changed the winner.

If NASCAR throws a phantom yellow for debris with 10 laps to go and a guy has an 8-second lead, it now becomes a 50/50 proposition on whether he makes it turn one first because 2nd is right next to him on the restart. He was going to win 99% of the time, and if he doesn't after the result of the restart, then NASCAR's phantom yellow changed the winner by definition.

[Edited on September 9, 2013 at 12:16 PM. Reason : /]

9/9/2013 12:12:30 PM

I didn't need to read any further than new man was in the lead when the flag came out. This is my point. He and his team couldn't keep the lead and that is no one else's problem.

[Edited on September 9, 2013 at 12:23 PM. Reason : Jnoka]

9/9/2013 12:19:25 PM

Quote :

"This is my point. He and his team couldn't keep the lead that no one else's problem."

What an incredibly narrow point of view.

We're not talking about Newman's pit crew here! Yes, that is their fault. That has nothing to deal with the fact that if Bowyer didn't deliberately spin, Newman would've won, and Bowyer spun to help prevent that.

[Edited on September 9, 2013 at 12:26 PM. Reason : .]

9/9/2013 12:25:08 PM

It's a fact.....teams do it time and time again... These are the teams that win championships. This is why Newman is not racing for SHM next year. He can't close the deal and he's not a money generator. You don't have to agree with it but I've been watching the sport long enough to understand and know that shit like this happens. There is no what ifs. It's a product of the sport again it's was strategy. Hey we will spin out because we know Neman will not close the deal. Done deal

9/9/2013 12:31:04 PM

Quote :

"This is why Newman is not racing for SHM next year. He can't close the deal -"

This is fucking moronic. He came into the pits 1st and left 5th because of his pitcrew, WHO WILL STILL BE EMPLOYED.

Quote :

"You don't have to agree with it but I've been watching the sport long enough to understand and know that shit like this happens. There is no what ifs. It's a product of the sport again it's was strategy. Hey we will spin out because we know Neman will not close the deal. Done deal."

Now you're being contrarian for the hell of it.

9/9/2013 12:34:49 PM

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/articles/2013/09/09/ryan-newman-richard-childress-racing-number-31.html

I can't believe Newman fell up the stairs on this one

9/9/2013 12:36:16 PM

"He just spun around, it's the craziest thing I've ever seen"

-dale jr

9/9/2013 4:37:11 PM

Truex out of the chase

Quote :

"DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. (Sept. 9, 2013) – NASCAR has issued penalties to Michael Waltrip Racing following the sanctioning body’s review of Saturday’s race at Richmond International Raceway. MWR was found to have violated Section 12-4 (Actions detrimental to stock car racing). As a result, MWR’s three teams in the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series (No. 15, 55, 56) have been penalized with the loss of 50 championship driver and 50 championship owner points, respectively. These point penalties are assessed following the season’s 26th regular season race and not after the seeding for the Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup. Therefore, the point total for the No. 56 car driven by Martin Truex Jr. is reduced to 691, putting him in 17th position and eliminating him from the second Wild Card berth for the Chase field. Ryan Newman, driver of the No. 39 car, now moves up into the Chase as the second Wild Card participant. NASCAR has also fined the MWR organization $300,000 and indefinitely suspended Ty Norris, MWR Executive Vice President/General Manager and spotter for the No. 55 car, for violating Section 12-4. The three crew chiefs – Brian Pattie (No. 15), Scott Miller (No. 55) and Chad Johnston (No. 56) – have all been placed on NASCAR probation until Dec. 31. “Based upon our review of Saturday night’s race at Richmond, it is our determination that the MWR organization attempted to manipulate the outcome of the race,” said Robin Pemberton, NASCAR vice president of competition. “As the sport’s sanctioning body, it is our responsibility to ensure there is a fair and level playing field for all of our competitors and this action today reflects our commitment to that.”"

[Edited on September 9, 2013 at 8:01 PM. Reason : From NASCAR.com]

9/9/2013 7:57:40 PM

can we fine helton, pemberton, et al. for all the phantom debris cautions? if they're not detrimental to stock car racing, then nothing is.

if earnhardt had needed a caution to make the chase, they would've thrown it.

[Edited on September 9, 2013 at 8:09 PM. Reason : nascar is a joke]

9/9/2013 8:06:37 PM

That does nothing for Gordon, if they hadn't slowed down to get behind Logano he would be in the chase. Jeff Gordon should be put into the chase, this is bullshit. I hope Gordon Wrecks every MWR car he passes for the next 10 races.

9/9/2013 8:12:03 PM

I applaud NASCAR for having the balls to make the decision, and I criticize NASCAR often. The easy way would've been for them to do what they do most of the time when faced with a hard decision, shrug their shoulders and say "that's racin'!"

If open fixing/team orders were the norm in NASCAR, it would occur far more frequently and with much more ease than in F1 (only 2 cars in F1 vs. up to 4 cars in NASCAR), and the fanbase in general would greatly hate it. I'm not naïve enough to believe this stuff doesn't occur occasionally to begin with. It's just in this case, Michael Waltrip Racing chose to do it very blatantly, very openly, and in a race that affected NASCAR's Chase.

Effectively by removing Truex and adding Newman, they restored the championship standings to what they'd look like if Bowyer hadn't've spun (Newman would've had the extra win and gotten the wild card, meaning Truex couldn't qualify. How Truex got it was having the same wins and tied in points with Newman but winning the tiebreaker.)

^ I thought the same on Gordon, but what Michael Waltrip Racing's fixing of results did was remove him from the top 10 in place of Joey Logano. Logano is innocent in this whole thing, he had nothing to deal with it and just raced hard, so you can't penalize Logano and promote Gordon that way. If you altered the race results so Logano would be bumped down to 11th in points, it'd mean he'd get in at the expense of Newman. There's no easy way for them to add Gordon on a merit-based system because he doesn't have a win which means for him to qualify he'd have to be in the top 10 in points, unless they doubled Bowyer's penalty to 100 points or arbitrarily added him to make it a 13-car Chase.

[Edited on September 9, 2013 at 8:32 PM. Reason : /]

9/9/2013 8:30:03 PM

Big daddy got hosed

9/9/2013 8:35:46 PM

Quote :

"Darrell Waltrip ?@AllWaltrip 11h it takes a genius to figure out if Bowyer spins, 55 pits, the 99 jumps the restart and the 39 doesn't win, 56 makes chase on a tie breaker!"

I bet ole DW is happy this race or next week's race aren't on Fox.

(he forgets Vickers running the last lap 30 mph off the pace and Bowyer meandering down pitlane during a restart from a spin he had no damage from)

[Edited on September 9, 2013 at 8:59 PM. Reason : /]

9/9/2013 8:40:35 PM

Good for NASCAR. Fuck all Toyota team members.


Except truex. I like him

9/9/2013 9:15:15 PM

i'd trust DW on this one, he knows all about cheating pushing the clutch in to blow an illegal motor as you cross the finish line



you gotta think truex felt pretty shitty about getting in under those circumstances, anyway. anyone with any conscience would.

[Edited on September 9, 2013 at 9:25 PM. Reason : dfas]

9/9/2013 9:23:07 PM

I forgot about that

9/9/2013 9:25:19 PM

Inaugural Winston. 1985.

9/9/2013 9:26:31 PM

i know you are in full nascar hatin mode, but they have made better decisions as of late. i know its too late to win back a lot of the old fans, but i have less complaints than i did a year ago.

they definitely got this call right.

9/9/2013 9:29:11 PM

glad NASCAR did something but I hate it for Truex

9/9/2013 9:31:49 PM

too little too late

it's a big joke. the best i can hope for is a weekly clusterfuck like this. it's the only entertainment value remaining. DVR the damn thing and watch it on fast forward with the benny hill theme playing.

9/9/2013 9:32:28 PM

I'm actually glad they lost some of the old fans, I doubt I'd of had nearly as much fun at the race if the stands were full of the good ole boys. Gordon will take care of Bowyer, just like he did at phoenix. I just hope he doesn't turn him head on into the wall at Chicago, wait until Charlotte so I can cheer in person.

9/9/2013 9:33:58 PM

either let them race or don't, but don't wait for a fan outcry to actually do something. if hendrick had pulled that shit to get the 88 in the chase, nascar wouldn't do a damn thing and everyone knows it. robin pemberton would have to spend the rest of his life behind bulletproof glass.

9/9/2013 9:37:50 PM

all i wanna see is some real ballsy sons of bitches drive the ever-living shit out of some race cars, side by side, swapping positions for 30 or 40 laps at a time, giving some bumper to get the job done, and not whining after the race, but getting even next week.

oh yeah

they do it every weekend at the tracks where the foundation for nascar was laid

9/9/2013 9:46:43 PM

Nascar was built on alot of things....I'm glad its changed in the last 10 years.

9/9/2013 10:06:27 PM

^^ but you don't make millions of dollars at those tracks.

But yes I agree


Ill be at ace speedway Friday watching a shit load of dumb rednecks tear up a bunch of equipment trying to make a name for them selves. Jebb burton is going to be there

9/9/2013 10:13:22 PM

violated Section 12-4

no way the rule book has 12 sections

9/9/2013 10:14:01 PM

^^that's what makes it awesome. the guys aren't racing for the money because 1st place money won't even buy a set of tires. racing for pride and nothing more.

9/9/2013 10:19:20 PM

I live roughly 3.5 hours from Martinsville and 3.5 hours from Dover. Which of these would yall think is the better race to see in person? Also cheap seats at Martinsville at $37, Dover is around $75. Reasons other than price would be helpful.

9/10/2013 8:39:22 PM

martinsville speedway is cool as shit. never been to dover.

did you have a scanner at richmond? i wouldn't go to a nascar race without one.

[Edited on September 10, 2013 at 9:00 PM. Reason : dfsa]

9/10/2013 8:58:25 PM

Yea the scanner was a necessity, I did the nationwide without it and found myself people watching instead of looking at the race.

9/10/2013 9:29:56 PM

go ahead and buy your own. it'll pay for itself over renting after just a few races.

[Edited on September 10, 2013 at 9:47 PM. Reason : get one online or from radioshack or something. not the ones at the track.]

9/10/2013 9:40:45 PM

Quote :

" JENNA FRYER (AP Auto Racing Writer) 17 minutes ago AP - Sports Penske Racing may have cut a deal with Front Row Motorsports in the closing laps at Richmond for track position to help get Joey Logano in the Chase for the Sprint Cup championship, according to a review of radio communications by The Associated Press. Logano was trying to claim a spot in the 12-driver Chase field in the season's final regular-season race. Penske and Front Row are both Ford teams and considered partners, but NASCAR has already been forced to shuffle the field because of a separate race-fixing attempt by Michael Waltrip Racing. In this case, the AP review found that a spotter for Front Row driver David Gilliland informed the team of a request to let Logano pass him in the final laps of Saturday night's race. A voice on the radio, believed to be Gilliland crew chief Frank Kerr, tells the spotter to tell Logano's spotter that the track position ''better pay big.'' ''The committee knows what I've been asking for,'' Kerr says. ''We've got the big dog and all his cronies,'' the spotter replies. Kerr then says: ''Travis knows what I've been asking for,'' an apparent reference to Penske Racing competition director Travis Geisler. A short time later, Logano passed Gilliland on a restart and finished 22nd - one spot ahead of Gilliland and good enough for a berth in the Chase field. Fantasy Football Signup ''Good job, good job, man,'' the spotter says. ''Hopefully we'll get something out of that.'' Statistics analyzed by AP also show Gilliland's lap times dropped off by almost 1 second from the times he was running prior to the radio exchange. NASCAR said it was aware of the communications ''and is looking into it, but has yet to see anything in full context that requires any action.'' Front Row spokesman Jeff Dennison said the team did not heed a Penske request to give Logano track position before the final restart."

9/11/2013 4:47:34 PM

LOL I believe the chase has died an untimely death. Why would you communicate over open air that everyone is listening to?

^^ Speaking of scanners I found this listed on radioshack.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4232141 I don't know much about scanners but for $20 seems like a winner so far.

9/11/2013 6:41:22 PM

I just listened to everything








Wow. NASCAR has a lot of making up to do. With that being said. More people will watch now do to the adversity.

9/11/2013 8:24:16 PM

Quote :

"DO TO ADVERSITY"

Realistically, they should take this and run with it. Let the big teams buy spots left and right, while there's one rogue driver who just WON'T. TAKE. THE FALL.

9/11/2013 8:29:37 PM

K

9/11/2013 8:41:06 PM

By Penske 80s thru 90s Indycar standards, that's nothing.

[Edited on September 11, 2013 at 8:45 PM. Reason : .]

9/11/2013 8:44:55 PM

Why don't you post a picture that isn't 5 years old vandy

9/11/2013 9:17:07 PM