I thought Lebron vs Kobe was a sure thing

Im gonna laugh when the Lakers lose

6/1/2009 7:58:10 AM

The Lakers aren't nearly as a good a match-up for Orlando as the Cavs were.

Ariza will be able to contain Hedo.

Bynum has the length advantage on Dwight Howard, and he's much quicker than Big Z.

Lamar Odom is a much better match-up against Rashard Lewis than anyone anyone on the Cavs roster, save LeBron.

Also, Alston won't fully exploit Fisher's defensive liability. And Orlando's bench doesn't have the same advantage over the Lakers' that Denver's had.

Forgive me while I state the obvious, for Orlando to stand a chance, Dwight Howard has to continue to play out of this world. I don't think he will, but if he does he'll be reminding everyone that for 30+ years the NBA was first and foremost a big man's league.

6/1/2009 1:28:54 PM

Kobe had a good season don't get me wrong. He's still on par with guys like Brandon Roy but he's not at the level of the elite players like Paul, Lebron, Wade, or Howard anymore...

And this season it wasn't even close... Just look at the numbers...

Without Paul the Hornets win 29.4 less games

Without Lebron the Cavs win 27.1 less games

Without Wade the Heat win 21 less games

Without Howard the Magic win 24 less games


Without Kobe the Lakers win 13.9 less games...


The decline in Kobe's game has been masked by the fact he has a really strong supporting cast.

Sure he was coasting some in the playoffs, but he's just not THAT great anymore. Did you even watch the Finals last year...?

[Edited on June 1, 2009 at 6:48 PM. Reason : a]

6/1/2009 6:43:14 PM

I watched the Finals last year...the Finals that Kobe led the Lakers to, kind of like how he led them to the Finals this year, for the 2nd year in a row...I also saw, while watching the Finals last year, how Boston's bigs were too much for Pau Gasoft to deal with, and that if they had another big body like Bynum who was injured, it would've been a more competitive series.

rally if the Lakers beat Orlando will you still refuse to think Kobe is in the same tier of players as Paul, Lebron, Wade and Howard? Only one of those 4 is still playing this year, and I'd much rather have Kobe on the foul line in crunch time than Howard.

6/1/2009 6:46:56 PM

Without Kobe the Lakers are still in the running for having the best record in the West.

They are a really good team. The numbers just don't back up Kobe being this unreal player that some people make him out to be. You change him out for Brandon Roy and performance wise the Lakers are essentially the same team.

Change Kobe for the ~10th best SG like Jason Richardson and they are still an elite team...


Change Lebron out for the ~10th best SF like Trevor Ariza and they would scrape to make the playoffs...

Replace Howard with a guy like Bosh and the Magic don't beat Boston...

Replace Wade with Nate Robinson and Miami is a bottom feeder...

Replace Paul with Devin Harris and they would suck dick...



The facts support the argument that Kobe is no longer an elite player. This isn't saying he isn't one of the most skilled players in the league.... he just isn't one of the most productive... that's inarguable...

6/1/2009 6:56:05 PM

I certainly agree that the Lakers are a better team than the Cavs, etc, but that doesn't mean Kobe isn't an elite player. His stats this year don't even mean he's not an elite player, it means he's a better team player than he has ever been in the past. He doesn't have to score 38 points a game for his team, but thats not a reflection of him somehow falling off. He can still turn on the elite switch when he needs to. Don't foolishly confuse not putting up huge numbers with not being able to put up huge numbers.

6/1/2009 7:00:53 PM

Quote :

" And this season it wasn't even close... Just look at the numbers... Without Paul the Hornets win 29.4 less games Without Lebron the Cavs win 27.1 less games Without Wade the Heat win 21 less games Without Howard the Magic win 24 less games Without Kobe the Lakers win 13.9 less games..."

I'll bite. Where exactly do these numbers come from?

6/1/2009 7:01:40 PM

http://www.wagesofwins.com/Top152009.html


Kobe isn't shooting a good FG%, he's not an elite 3pt shooter, he didn't get to the line as much this year, his ppg fell off from the errant shooting and lack of FTA... he turns it over a lot for a guy who doesn't create a lot of assists...

I understand he was coasting a bit in the regular season this year but his overall efficiency was just down too much to put him on par with a D.Howard or D.Wade at this point

[Edited on June 1, 2009 at 7:05 PM. Reason : a]

6/1/2009 7:03:05 PM

So Troy Murphy is a more elite player than Dirk Nowitzki?

Kobe passes the eye test. I don't need stats to prove that to me. That link is a lot more telling of which teams are shallow than which players are elite.

[Edited on June 1, 2009 at 7:09 PM. Reason : .]

6/1/2009 7:06:17 PM

No, but Dirk didn't have a great season and Murphy was a monster. Obviously, Dirk has been a much more productive player in the past and this year was probably somewhat of a fluke.

And yes the formula does account for defense but obviously it doesn't account enough for just how bad Murphy's defense is...

6/1/2009 8:38:00 PM

Quote :

"The decline in Kobe's game has been masked by the fact he has a really strong supporting cast. "

i disagree...but maybe thats cause the only other players i can name from la are bynum, walton, and fisher

6/1/2009 8:50:19 PM

you'd be leaving out their (probably) 2nd and 3rd best players, Gasol and Odom

6/1/2009 8:53:20 PM

oh odom is who i meant when i said bynum...my bad...odom, walton, and fisher

[Edited on June 1, 2009 at 8:54 PM. Reason : so i guess i know bynum, kobe, walton, fisher, and odom]

6/1/2009 8:54:08 PM

gasol is the big white dude

he is from spain and has a hot wife

[Edited on June 1, 2009 at 8:55 PM. Reason : .]

6/1/2009 8:54:36 PM

I think it's a little disingenuous to call out Kobe's FG % when he gets the majority of his points off jump shots, and just about every 3 he takes is with the shot clock expiring and a hand in his face. LeBron, Wade, and Howard get their points much easier, off dunks/layups and trips to the free throw line. Kobe doesn't really drive that much anymore, especially during the regular season when he's trying to coast and conserve energy as much as possible.

I thought he really turned it on during the Denver series, got to the FT line a bunch and carried the Lakers to wins in Games 1 and 3, before the rest of team finally showed up in Game 5. They don't make it past Denver without him.

He averaged nearly 34 points, 6 rebound, and 6 assists in that series, all while getting murdered every time he drove into the paint. Outplayed the shit out of Melo too in the last 4 games. He doesn't get the calls Lebron and Wade do either when they go hurling into the paint with no intention of actually putting up a decent shot.

6/2/2009 10:45:06 AM

rallydurham hahahahahahahahha

KOBE is still KING of the NBA

2)Lebron: he is getting closer but still a tier below KOBE plus he hasnt won anything yet

3)Wade/Howard: These guys are on the same level, a bit below Lebron

4)CP3/Melo/Roy/Garnett

6/2/2009 3:50:21 PM

^ I think you are funny talking about Lebron not winning anything yet

6/2/2009 3:53:24 PM

lebron......... have you seen my 3 rings........lebron?????

what has Lebron won???

what has anyone you guys are saying are better than Kobe won?? D-wade has 1 title

Kobe is about to have 4

6/2/2009 4:11:15 PM

fuck that, if we're going by rings, then Robert Horry is better than Kobe, so gtfo with that being the sole basis of your argument.

6/2/2009 4:15:39 PM

ibtrentdilfer

lets go by points in a single game:

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Kobe Bryant
3. David Thompson

[Edited on June 2, 2009 at 4:18 PM. Reason : works for me]

6/2/2009 4:18:09 PM

KOBE, DWADE, LEBRON, DWIGHT, CP3

I think everyone would agree these are the 5 best players in the NBA

OKAY...... now between those 5

Kobe has 3 rings
Dwade has 1
everyone else 0

6/2/2009 4:22:24 PM

so we're putting Dwight ahead of Melo, just like that now?

6/2/2009 4:24:29 PM

Dwight has been ahead of Melo for a while now

6/2/2009 4:27:27 PM

really, a while? according to who?

6/2/2009 5:01:03 PM

stop with the rings as an argument

put anyone of those other 4 players on kobe's lakers team that won 3 straight and those 4 players would have 3 rings...

use a different argument, one with actual basketball knowledge and one that requires watching basketball and understanding the game and teammates

6/2/2009 5:23:14 PM

They played three of the weakest Finals teams in NBA history

Nets, Sixers, Pacers, are you kidding me ?

The East was sooooo bad for that stretch

Hell, if the Nash-Amare-Marion Suns came together 5 years earlier, they could have won those three titles in a cakewalk, and that team never even made it out of the West

6/2/2009 5:37:07 PM

Quote :

"put anyone of those other 4 players on kobe's lakers team that won 3 straight and those 4 players would have 3 rings..."

I don't know if Shaq + Dwight Howard would win 3 titles, but they'd probably set NBA playoff records for worst FT% and most foul outs

How about if you replaced Shaq w/ Dwight Howard? Kobe + Howard = 3 titles

I swear some of you act like Kobe had nothing to do with those 3 titles, and Shaq is 100% responsible

6/2/2009 6:36:54 PM

Oh, no. they wouldn't have won those titles w/o Kobe, but I feel like in those years, Shaq had a lot more to do with their success than Kobe.

6/2/2009 6:51:42 PM

Quote :

"They played three of the weakest Finals teams in NBA history Nets, Sixers, Pacers, are you kidding me ? The East was sooooo bad for that stretch"

The West had 3 pretty good teams in the Kings, Blazers and Spurs those years.

Shaq during the 3 peat was at his peak, a dominant unstoppable force but he wasnt the guy they went to in crunch time, it was Kobe. They could not have won it without each other.

6/3/2009 10:28:03 AM

had Shaq and Kobe stayed together they would have at least 5 rings together right now and probably working on #6

6/3/2009 10:30:13 AM

what ever dude. You sit there and mock jordan and he has 6 rings. Fuck kobe, he wasnt even the best player on his team when he won those rings....shaq won those for him. He has zero and hasnt won shit

6/3/2009 11:46:22 AM

when have i ever mocked jordan?????

i really dont know how you are able to post anything because in order to type you would have to take your hands off of jordans dick

6/3/2009 11:54:59 AM

you should have it easy typing, although you probably cant talk because your mouth is around Kobes cock all the time

6/3/2009 3:39:30 PM

i am going to be the bigger man here

6/3/2009 5:04:32 PM

eh I don't think it's N you

6/3/2009 5:22:30 PM

you like big men huh

6/4/2009 8:24:15 AM

Quote :

"you should have it easy typing, although you probably cant talk because your mouth is around Kobes cock all the time"

pot. kettle. black.

6/4/2009 12:59:10 PM

1 unit on Lakers ML. plz2win.

6/4/2009 1:01:58 PM

Quote :

"LeBron, Wade, and Howard get their points much easier, off dunks/layups and trips to the free throw line."

Exactly, which is a big part of why they are so much better than Kobe. Not so much more TALENTED, just that much more efficient and effective basketball players at this juncture of their career.

Quote :

" Kobe doesn't really drive that much anymore, especially during the regular season when he's trying to coast and conserve energy as much as possible."

Exactly, which is why he isn't as good as he used to be.



You are crazy for using that rings argument. We all saw exactly what kind of player Kobe was when Shaq left town. The Lakers didn't even win a series for three years. He's a great player but to act like those titles are HIS when Shaq was putting up some of the best seasons in NBA history is ludicrous.

Dwayne Wade has what could be considered the best Finals performance ever, Kobe does not.

Lebron had one of the best seasons in NBA history this year, Kobe did not.

Chris Paul carried one of the worst teams in the NBA to a solid playoff record, Kobe did not.


He's a still a great player but I don't think any informed basketball fan would even entertain the argument that in the regular season Kobe was on the same level as those other guys.


Think Brandon Roy with more media attention and you'll have an accurate assessment of his regular season.

During the playoffs he has stepped his game up, but Lebron's #'s in the Orlando series DWARF anything Kobe did against Denver.

I think Kobe is in for a rough time against Pietrus and I think the Magic have a great chance of winning this series. I took them at +230 tonight and +6.

Remember Kobe lost a FInals series when Shaq went absolutely bananas against Detroit. He got shut down by Tayshaun Prince and their supporting cast wasn't good enough to overcome his lackluster performance.

He got taken out of his game by Posey last year and Boston waltzed to the title.

I wouldn't be surprised one bit to see him taken off his game enough this year to push the series to a much younger, less experienced Orlando team.

This is the Lakers next to last year to win a title without significant roster upgrades to make up for Kobe's inevitable falloff. And since everyone loathes playing with Kobe I don't see that happening. He needs to win this series to establish himself as a guy who won a title as the best player on his own team.

6/4/2009 7:17:43 PM

Damn as much as rally seems to love stats in here, he was pretty quick to say they are meaningless when talking about Vick IIRC.

6/4/2009 8:00:15 PM

Vick rushed for nearly 1,000 yards one season. Everyone wanted to add passing + rushing as if passing yards are worth as much as rushing yards. He was leading a terrible team to victories. Look at the Falcons record (~25% if I recall) w/o Vick vs the ~66% of games they won with him...

Also, football is clearly a different sport than basketball. Stats are obviously more of a function of your environment in football than in basketball.

Besides if anything Kobe's intangibles take things off the table compared to the other stars. Lebron's teammates don't hate him like Kobe's do... nor do Wade's to my knowledge. CP III obviously makes his teammates much, much better due to his unique ability to penetrate any defense. I fail to see how intangibles could help Kobe in any reasonable evaluation.

[Edited on June 4, 2009 at 8:24 PM. Reason : a]

6/4/2009 8:23:50 PM

The main problem with basketball is that people just can see beyond points.

Invariably after a few games this series the trolls will come out and bring up how many points Kobe had in a Lakers win.

He's a great scorer, no doubt. He will definitely have a game or two this series where he just looks unstoppable.

Lebron & Wade are unstoppable almost every night though. Not to mention they can't take plays off because they can't win without them running the offense for 95% of the plays.

Obviously, he won't have near the defensive or rebounding impact that Dwight Howard will have on the series. He also won't be able to average ~20 points with super high efficiency or potentially saddle Gasol/Bynum with foul trouble for a few games in the series.

Imagine the Lakers without Kobe. They wouldn't be here, but they would have a competitive team. Now imagine the Magic without Howard. Their only appearance in the playoffs would have been on a lotto ball.

[Edited on June 4, 2009 at 8:40 PM. Reason : a]

6/4/2009 8:40:19 PM

welp...glad we can see lebron and kobe duke it out....i expect a most excellent series...i bet at least one game, lebron scores 60+ and kobe scores 70+

6/4/2009 8:43:27 PM

Jesus fucking christ. What the hell is going on with my sound?

Is anyone else getting reverb like crazy on Dolby Digital? With like 1:30 left in the 2nd Q the sound went to shit... and it's not any setting that I changed...

6/4/2009 10:16:50 PM

What the hell is this Jameer Nelson bullshit? Why mess with something if it isn't broke? If a team has good chemistry and is on a roll why would you make that change IN THE NBA FINALS.


fuckin van gundy

6/4/2009 10:22:31 PM

that dwight howard vitamin water commerical was hi-larious

6/4/2009 10:29:08 PM

well rally, you were at least right about one thing

Quote :

"He's a great scorer, no doubt. He will definitely have a game or two this series where he just looks unstoppable."

6/4/2009 10:56:19 PM

when did kobe start making that weird under bite face? he never did that back in the day

6/4/2009 11:04:46 PM

Yeah kobe definitely had a great game. He had a week off to rest and Courtney Lee is clearly too small to take on Koberman. I don't forsee him being THAT good every game.

The rest of the Lakers cast was hitting a lot of jumpers tonight which they haven't done a lot of in the playoffs.

On the other hand the Magic scored 20 points in ~8 minutes then they inserted Jameer Nelson and scored about 8 points in the next 20 minutes. That was a poor decision to bring him in for extended minutes and it really ruined the Magic's offensive flow and confidence.

It'll be interesting to see how the Magic respond to this game. Game two is fairly make or break, young teams aren't good at recovering from ass kickings.

I thought Howard had a pretty effective game. He drew fouls in single coverage and got the Magic a lot of open looks on kick outs. He needs to finish a little better around the rim.

For god's sake can they STOP talking about the key to the game being Howard making FT's... he's a 59% shooter in the regular season and a 70% FT in the postseason. If he goes to the line ten times thats a whopping ONE point per game. How on earth is that the key to the fucking game? I'm pretty sure the Magic shooting 28% from 3's will have more of an effect than if Howard goes 7-10 FT instead of 6-10.

6/4/2009 11:11:54 PM

yeah, the magic played like ass, couldn't hit a damn shot. the lakers played great, but if the magic were hitting their 3s like usual, this game would be reasonable.

6/4/2009 11:14:34 PM