Quote :

"anything other than his opinion on the T3 that makes him an idiot?"

No, lol

I love my T3. Mine really will shoot sub MOA consistently with good factory ammo. It shoots regular ammo into 1-1.5 and argentine mil surp into 2MOA.
The first time I loaded ammo for it I used 168gr SMKs on a starting load of Varget. The first 5 shot/100 yard group I shot was 0.75" with maybe 30-45 seconds between shots.
I haven't even bothered to refine the load.

Yeah, it's cheap, it's got a 0.1" deep slot for the non-integral recoil lug, the stock flexes a little, the trigger guard is plastic, and it has a small loading port. The barreled action also has the machining quality of a $1200 gun and it shoots well.

I get worked up when people say it's cheap but won't recognize the fact that a company like Remington hasn't improved their machining quality over the years despite improvements in technology. They build their stuff on old machinery that's been paid for many times over and they still charge roughly the same price. Remington invests less and less every year into a product. That is truly cheap.
I guess it comes down to something I've said a lot before. Few things are completely bad and few things are completely good. I hate when someone gives you a short answer like "it's cheap" and can't tell you why or can't recognize any good aspects.

It really just boils down to what you want. If I wanted a rifle with a soul I would have picked up an M77. I opted for the Glock equivalent.
To pick on the T3 like that just isn't fair. What he's really complaining about are gun writers that don't have the balls to put out a real opinion on something, but IMO he missed his mark.

[Edited on December 15, 2011 at 10:43 PM. Reason : ]

12/15/2011 10:31:43 PM

i don't think it's fair to call him an idiot because you don't agree with the opinion of one article (an opinion with which many others agree)

if the T3 had a 3 position tang safety, a big ejection port, and a true short action for short action cartridges, then it'd be a great rifle. as it is, it's just a good cheap hunting rifle. of course, if you changed all those things you might as well just get a savage.

12/15/2011 10:42:38 PM

Funny...I just wrote him off as an idiot like he did the T3 even though I actually like his work.

This is what I should have said...Hawks has some really good articles. Though his one article about the T3 is idiotic imo.


[Edited on December 15, 2011 at 10:48 PM. Reason : I'm a hypocrit ]

12/15/2011 10:45:15 PM

i'll allow it

unrelated:

i think i have decided on a 20" RRA coyote rifle upper for my AR. any scope suggestions? thinking it might be nice to have some kind of BDC or mildot reticle to make quick shots at varying ranges a little easier.

12/15/2011 10:49:07 PM

I don't have much experience with those types of reticles, but check this out:
http://www.opticsplanet.net/leupold-vx-3-4-5-14x50mm-long-range-matte-riflescope-personalized-by-leupold-custom-s.html

That's pretty damn neat for long range work.

12/15/2011 11:03:54 PM

that's exactly what i have on my 22-250

[Edited on December 15, 2011 at 11:18 PM. Reason : and sometimes i still wish i had more power on it ]

this is what 14x looks like at 100 yds



[Edited on December 15, 2011 at 11:19 PM. Reason : sd]

12/15/2011 11:17:21 PM

Anyone have any experience with the Ruger LC9? I'm starting to consider what I might like to try out once I have my CCH. I think I want to shoot the LC9, Springfield XD subcompact, and HK P2000. I lean heavily towards the P2000 simply because I already love HK, but it's not cheap.

12/16/2011 8:19:49 AM

Thanks all on the Lawmens hookup. G23 for me this Christmas

12/16/2011 9:17:23 AM

Quote :

"hink i have decided on a 20" RRA coyote rifle upper for my AR. any scope suggestions? thinking it might be nice to have some kind of BDC or mildot reticle to make quick shots at varying ranges a little easier."

Mildot is not going to do you any good. I just recently bought a Nikon M-223 for my medium length AR, check that out for your application

12/16/2011 10:31:12 AM

^^^ You might want to check out the HK P30. The P2000 is nice, but after doing my homework, the P30 was a much better gun. If you want to shoot it, PM me.

[Edited on December 16, 2011 at 10:33 AM. Reason : ^]

12/16/2011 10:32:46 AM

Hey Fumbler I've been looking at a few rifles in .270 winchester. I won't use it for game hunting, I just like shooting that particular cartridge. Weight is not a huge factor, I don't anticipate hiking several miles with it strapped to myself.

In my price range I'm considering the Weatherby Vanguard, Marlin XL-7 and the Tikka T3. This is an open question. Everyone feel free to chime in.

12/16/2011 10:46:26 AM

^^^that's exactly what i'm looking for and right in my budget. thanks!

^all 3 of those will shoot good. might wanna check out the howa 1500, which is the exact same thing as the vanguard. my T3 is chambered in .270 and i'm satisfied with it.

[Edited on December 16, 2011 at 10:51 AM. Reason : sadf]

12/16/2011 10:47:31 AM

Quote :

"Anyone have any experience with the Ruger LC9? I'm starting to consider what I might like to try out once I have my CCH. I think I want to shoot the LC9, Springfield XD subcompact, and HK P2000. I lean heavily towards the P2000 simply because I already love HK, but it's not cheap."

How are you going to carry it? If pocket, I recommend the LCP. The LC9 was a bit too large for my comfort for pocket carry.

12/16/2011 11:39:35 AM

what about these two?

http://www.opticsplanet.net/leupold-vx-3-1-5-5x20-rifle-scope.html

http://www.opticsplanet.net/nikon-monarch-african-riflescope-1-4x20-matte-german-4-8446.html

12/16/2011 5:28:24 PM

^^^thanks I'll check that one out as well.

12/16/2011 6:30:26 PM

since I'm gonna have to hold off on the .44 and .357 sig due to cost issues for a couple months, I'm looking on the short term into a glock 20. Opinions? What can I expect to pay for a solid used one and what's the availability of 10mm ammo 'round these parts?

Also, Fumbler, many thanks for your insight a couple pages back...

[Edited on December 16, 2011 at 6:53 PM. Reason : asdf]

12/16/2011 6:52:37 PM

10mm is easy to find its just a little pricey.

id say 450-650 depending if its compensated or not- there have been a lot of them on carolinashooterforum recently.

i have a buddy selling a G20C brand new in the box never been fired. ill ask him what he will come down to-

[Edited on December 16, 2011 at 9:29 PM. Reason : correction, he says 600]

12/16/2011 9:27:40 PM

^ I've been keeping my eye out for a Gen 3 G29. If you see one, LMK.

12/16/2011 9:48:32 PM

also i will soon be in possession of a large number of 3/8 inch AR500 steel plates, 12 inch sqaures.

at least 20 pounds a piece so probably not worth it to ship-

dont know exactly how many ill have for sale, i ordered a big sheet and its currently being cut up. ill let you guys know how many i decide not to keep for myself.

prob 50ish bucks a piece (charlotte nc).

shoot me a message if interested.

12/16/2011 10:02:37 PM

Too bad it's not AR550, or I'd be interested in a couple.

12/16/2011 10:31:33 PM

i dont think your mosin would hurt it at 100 yards

you shouldnt be shooting steel closer than that anyway!

12/16/2011 10:38:19 PM

i've been told that AR500 is fine for rifle if you tilt the top forward a little and leave it free to swing

12/17/2011 9:26:14 AM

AR500 is standard material for rifle at 100 yards.
I'm in charlotte, and would be interested in a plate.

12/17/2011 4:37:36 PM

^send me a message so i can keep everyone who wants one organized, thanks.

12/18/2011 10:55:07 AM

Quote :

"In my price range I'm considering the Weatherby Vanguard, Marlin XL-7 and the Tikka T3."

How much money do you want to spend? I love my T3 and recommend it, but the Vanguard (and Howa 1500) and XL-7 are both cheaper than the T3 by around $100.
If you have a limited budget then it'd be best to buy the Vanguard or XL-7 and add the other $100 to your scope.

I've handled Vanguards and have seen them at the range and they seem fine. Nothing bad, nothing special. One guy I talked to at the range had a Vanguard in 270 win and was shooting 1-3" groups out to 220 yards with handloads. That's pretty damn good for a $400 rifle.

I've never seen or shot an XL-7 but the reviews are good. They look a lot like Savages which makes me wonder if they're built by Savage. The floating bolt head and accu-trigger like trigger may give you an accuracy advantage over the Vanguard.

It's a toss up. The T3 is more likely to be accurate than the other two but you can get lucky and get a really good Vanguard or XL-7. Weatherby offers a "Sub-MOA" version that's guaranteed to shoot sub MOA. Basically Weatherby picks out the Vanguards that shoot well during testing, then stick a different stock on it and mark up the price.
If it matters to you, the Vanguard and XL-7 will be more comfortable and easier to shoot a lot because the T3 is over a pound lighter.

12/19/2011 10:47:35 AM

Very proud of this. Out of 50 rounds, the only 2 I put outside of the 9's were the 2 in which we were instructed to aim for the center of the 8. It wasn't a competition, but I am 100% confident that I beat everyone else's score (in my range group anyway - I didn't see the other groups) by at least 10-15 points. I've never before done any quick draw, snap shot, or one-handed shooting, either. I am now certified to apply for NC-CCH.

Have I mentioned lately how much I love HK?

12/19/2011 10:55:28 AM

Nice job! I too love HK, however, the price deters me from owning one I'm afraid if I try a Sig, I will be torn on ownership just like with an HK.

[Edited on December 19, 2011 at 10:58 AM. Reason : .]

12/19/2011 10:57:29 AM

You had to do "quick draw, snap shot, or one-handed" testing for CC?

Did you fire from your hip or with the gun upside down?

12/19/2011 11:07:02 AM

Almost all of this - we didn't shoot upside-down. LOL. I would have cheated with my laser if we had. I did my training through a company in Garner (FTA) which prides themselves on going a little bit further than the minimum requirements. They did an outstanding job with the classroom prep as well as the range management. I would absolutely recommend them.

12/19/2011 12:58:47 PM

Just bought a keltek pf9 in tan

12/19/2011 1:30:15 PM

^^ yeah i would have liked to have had a little more range time / range training than i did. we seemed to rush that part and it was all pretty simplified

12/19/2011 1:38:16 PM

While extra range time is nice, the concealed handgun permit test isn't designed to teach you how to use a gun. It's there to teach you when it's ok to use it and to make sure you can handle a gun at a basic level.

12/19/2011 2:33:15 PM

I fully agree with this. However, it seems that some people in my class didn't. One guy couldn't understand the concept of how a full magazine + 1 in the chamber could possibly work. "If it's only a 10 round magazine, how are you getting 11 rounds out of it?" Direct quote. That's a little frightening to hear in a concealed carry class. The poor lady on the range slot right beside me had no idea how many rounds her magazine could hold, and she didn't know how to load it either. To further complicate matters, she only had one magazine. Whenever the instructor called for us to reload, she had to remove the magazine, pull out a box of ammo, and reload that same magazine.

I worry that people should have a LOT more range training and mechanical practice before they are allowed to have concealed carry permits. The bar needs to be set considerably higher if this is the kind of thing which counts as passing.

12/19/2011 4:31:23 PM

Quote :

"While extra range time is nice, the concealed handgun permit test isn't designed to teach you how to use a gun. It's there to teach you when it's ok to use it and to make sure you can handle a gun at a basic level."

Similarly, a DMV driving test also just teaches the very basics, but I think we'd benefit as a whole if we all received much more hands on CCW training like Axelay received - at the certification level. Not only would it be fun, but how am I supposed to pull this off by just practicing at the range??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M05updE6sJI&t=0m20s

[Edited on December 19, 2011 at 5:11 PM. Reason : .]

12/19/2011 5:11:47 PM

Quote :

"You had to do "quick draw, snap shot, or one-handed" testing for CC? Did you fire from your hip or with the gun upside down?"

If you don't practice things like this, you will die in a gun fight or fail to stop the threat. If you think a deadly force encounters are two-handed marksmanship shots, you will die. You should shoot one handed often, off-hand, lying down, etc.

12/19/2011 5:16:31 PM

There were a few people in my class who had never shot a handgun. The stupid thing was two of them were women who were with their husbands. Why would you bring your wife to take a proficiency test without at least showing her how the gun works?
We had people missing the entire target at 3 yards. The dude next to me was one of those. He looked about 50-55 years old with a Beretta 92. He said he was in the army when he was younger but hadn't shot a gun since. He was so nervous he missed but he was nailing the target after he calmed down a little.

[Edited on December 19, 2011 at 5:17 PM. Reason : ]

12/19/2011 5:16:55 PM

Quote :

"I think we'd benefit as a whole if we all received much more hands on CCW training like Axelay received - at the certification level."

I think it'd be nice too, but would it drive the cost of schools up? Would it end up being really boring for those who just want to get the certificate and leave?

Quote :

"Not only would it be fun, but how am I supposed to pull this off by just practicing at the range??"

You need to shoot some action pistol, IDPA, IPSC, etc.
IMO that's the best (and fun) training a practical pistol shooter can get without paying $texas on gunsight, thunder ranch, Xe, etc.

12/19/2011 5:24:40 PM

I was really blown away when my instructor told me I was finished after 14 rounds. Apparently because I was shooting a .40 Subcompact and all my shots were in the 9 ring, that was good enough. Granted, there were some horrible shooters there but 14 rounds seemed to be a quick judgement on my abilities.

12/19/2011 8:38:22 PM

12/20/2011 4:54:59 AM

Quote :

"I think it'd be nice too, but would it drive the cost of schools up? "

Handling firearms is no joke. I wouldn't mind the cost going up if it meant a more in depth education/training.

Quote :

"Would it end up being really boring for those who just want to get the certificate and leave?"

With great power comes great responsibility. I believe it's a shame that we allow people to obtain CCW's so easily (per my experience in this state). If anything, it'll create a false sense of security more than actually help someone protect themselves properly, or worse, accidentally hurt (an) innocent individual(s). I believe the course requirements should be more demanding to help insure the safety of the owner as well as others. I wonder how often people with firearms actually practice shooting? I admit that I don't practice enough; only about once a month. I do go through dry runs usually on a weekly basis at home though...

12/20/2011 7:45:11 AM

while I don't necessarily disagree with requiring more training... has it really been an issue? It seems that you're trying to solve a non-existent problem. Yes, I agree more training correlates with safer shooters, but how much faith do you want to put in our government to do this correctly? Any such bill would likely get a poison pill inserted (see recreational area ban in HB 650) that could really cause some headaches. And at what point are the requirements infringing too much on 2A rights? What about long guns; no training there at all.

In reality, I'd like to abolish CCPs/CHPs, come up with a per state firearm license that requires pretty much what the CHP course/law does. And that allows you to purchase any firearms without any hassle and requires some more long & short gun training. But I fear the government would fuck this up too much.

[Edited on December 20, 2011 at 8:44 AM. Reason : p]

12/20/2011 8:43:53 AM

^ throw in the ability to buy suppressors with that training and i'm game

12/20/2011 9:10:05 AM

yeh, I'd love to nix most class 3 bullshit as well.

some may see my previous post as contradictory... while it may be somewhat contradictory, I do believe that constitutional rights can have some reasonable limitations (as is this case (somewhat) already). So for 2A rights, I think full background checks are reasonable (if you abuse rights you should lose rights), as well as law training and proficiency training. While driving is not a right, similar type requirements for firearms would be reasonable. The key here is to ensure that all requirements are reasonable. This is where poison bills come in. I could easily see laws getting passed that require too much training to make it affordable; training so strict that people would essentially have to be expert marksmen or lawyers.

Another issue I have is person-to-person sales. While I think these should remain legal, I question how many long-gun sales are made to criminals via private sales since there is no regulation. This is where a general permit comes in handy... just like current CHPs, a general permit could be required for all private sales, which would cut down on potential "illegal" sales. Buy maybe this isn't a problem, I don't know because I don't think there are any (good) statistics on it. But this issue is potentially good ammo for anti-firearm types to rally against run rights, and they do have somewhat of a decent stance.

[Edited on December 20, 2011 at 9:25 AM. Reason : .]

12/20/2011 9:13:12 AM

^ We are on the same page.

+1 to both your posts.

12/20/2011 10:55:50 AM

Aside from PDHSC, are there any decent indoor ranges around the Raleigh area which also rent handguns? I ask this because way back in the day before I bought my USP, I shot many different types of handguns before deciding upon which I liked the best. HK was hands down my favorite. I'm contemplating beginning a search for something which I might carry concealed, but I'd like to again go hands-on and see what I prefer. (I'm already leaning hard towards the P2000SK, but I want to keep an open mind.)

Trying to find HK items at the fairgrounds shows is like searching for the needle in the haystack. Very few dealers - in my experience - have anything HK. I think I went to 4 consecutive shows this past year before I finally found another 15-round 9mm magazine for my USP.

12/22/2011 2:26:37 PM

I don't think so... unless Davie's finally got off their butts and reopened their range

12/22/2011 2:59:53 PM

^remember, they closed.

12/22/2011 4:13:05 PM

if you're willing to drive about an hour from raleigh, WT's Guns in Goldsboro rents all sorts of stuff, including full autos iirc. from what i've seen, their gun prices are high, but idk about the rentals. my uncle has been to their indoor range and said it was nice.

12/22/2011 4:17:55 PM

^^oh, they closed? I haven't been in years and never really cared for the place anyways

12/22/2011 4:32:00 PM

Eagle One near the walmart on falls of the neuse rents a few handguns. I think there are a couple glocks, a .45 USP, and maybe some kind of .22. Not a wide variety however.

12/22/2011 4:49:43 PM