^I thought the next upgrade was called "Windows 8.1" (and I hope it doesn't cost too much for Win8 owners).

4/12/2013 4:54:35 AM

Quote :

"In one fell swoop MS has asked everybody to upgrade to a touchscreen monitor on their desktop and the UI was made for touchscreen without any REAL alternative to go back to the Start menu."

while i think Noen's point is valid (and a more accurate explanation for the decline in sales), i think this is also extremely valid...i think it's a mix of the two

the only (well, biggest) reason i can think of that made microsoft want to "force" users to purchase a touchscreen was to push a windows ecosystem in order to compete with apple's

in other news, i switched to classic shell because start menu 8 (the free start menu from iobit, not the $5 option from stardock) seemed to be crashing and (as best i can figure) causing my windows to randomly minimize (i know it seems weird, but it was happening with regularity and only uninstalling start menu 8 altogether made it stop...so far)

i didn't realize classic shell was as customizable as it is, so i think i may like it better, anyway

4/12/2013 7:43:12 AM

touchscreen computers are the next evolution, microsoft didn't want to play catch up this time.

4/12/2013 8:04:18 AM

^ and i get that, it makes sense...but i can't think of another reason that they wouldn't at least offer the OPTION of using their newest OS in a more traditional manner

if nothing else, i don't think touchscreen is the (near) future in a business environment (at least in comparison an at-home, consumer environment)

i guess you could argue that they figured what happened is what they planned, that a third party would let folks get their "traditional" windows experience back if they wanted...but i think they underestimated how much it annoyed consumers and how it impacted their sales

as the go-to geek for some less computer-savvy folks, i can't tell you how many have expressed concerns about getting a windows 8 machine solely because they didn't want to lose their start menu...and *i* didn't feel like supporting it when it caused them to get frustrated, so i told them to stick with a windows 7 machine for the time being

4/12/2013 9:03:52 AM

touchscreens fucking suck on desktops and laptops and designing your os to force everyone to use a touchscreen on a desktop or laptop is really goddamned stupid.

4/12/2013 11:27:30 AM

Theres no reason Microsoft couldn't have allowed traditional desktop apps into the store using WPF. Application developers would just need to write different xaml for each input type. One for touch input and one for keyboard and mouse input. The core code remains the same.

Then they could have released the store in a service pack for 7 and tons of people would have moved their apps into the store because everyone loves windows 7 and letting Microsoft distribute your application would be far easier than doing it yourself. Then when you release windows 8 (without metro) the same apps would work there. When you release the arm/touch based os (lets call it surface os) all these people with popular desktop apps add the xaml for touch and now you've got tons of popular apps on the store. its fucking easy.

but they didn't fucking do it because ballmer is a moron and he wanted touch everywhere. and what that meant was that no one wants a surface device because they don't have any apps and no one wants a desktop/laptop running win8 because the metro shit sucks and gets in the way. nice work, idiots.

4/12/2013 11:37:44 AM

traditional desktop apps do exist in the store

and touchscreens on laptops are fucking awesome

[Edited on April 12, 2013 at 11:40 AM. Reason : .]

4/12/2013 11:39:34 AM

I'm loving the Thinkpad Tablet 2.

[Edited on April 12, 2013 at 11:43 AM. Reason : ]

4/12/2013 11:42:05 AM

same here

4/12/2013 11:46:27 AM

So I have a free copy of Windows 8 I can get through work/school, but is there any actual reason to "upgrade" from Windows 7?

4/12/2013 12:25:57 PM

I would go crazy if I had to use Windows 8 without a touchscreen.

Or a start menu replacement.

[Edited on April 12, 2013 at 12:38 PM. Reason : ]

4/12/2013 12:37:51 PM

at work it would bother me. at home i use a SMALL handful of apps, so i just use desktop icons.

4/12/2013 12:50:35 PM

^^^ as i said earlier in the thread, i thought it was worth the $15 i paid for it...it feels smoother, snappier, and more...solid? i don't know, i actually like it for the most part

don't even bother trying to use it until you've paid $5 for start8 or downloaded classic shell (free), though

4/12/2013 12:59:41 PM

i use the free start menu 8

Quote :

"I would go crazy if I had to use Windows 8 without a touchscreen."

its fine with a mouse, probably pretty annoying if you just have a touchpad. i bought one of the large touchpad things to use with the desktop but i prefer just using the mouse.

and there are hot keys you can use for everything if you want.

[Edited on April 12, 2013 at 1:36 PM. Reason : .]

4/12/2013 1:34:38 PM

Quote :

"So I have a free copy of Windows 8 I can get through work/school, but is there any actual reason to "upgrade" from Windows 7?"

No real reason. The only reason I made the move was just to play around with it. It's roughly the same experience. I use the Start screen as a glorified bucket for what would ordinarily have been shortcuts on the desktop. Surprising lack of options to customize the Start screen btw. OblyTile and Start Screen Customizer (both free) fill in the gaps.

Windows 8 ships with many file associations defaulted to a metro app. It really breaks the flow when you're multi-tasking, go to open a pdf file, and the OS transitions you to a metro app that fills the screen and operates under an entirely different user interface model. 8 was fine once I redid most of the file associations to actual programs. The file associations are fine for tablets/phones but make no sense in a desktop environment.

Pat on the back for trying to be ahead of the curve in the tablet market, but they really should have just come out with a radio box during the Windows 8 install

○ Settings ideal for a phone/tablet
○ Settings ideal for a desktop

As a desktop user with all that Windows 8 offered I don't see why it all couldn't have been packaged in a service pack. The move from 7 to 8 was reminiscent of making the move from XP SP 2 to XP SP 3, a bit of a speed boost +a few extras.


[Edited on April 12, 2013 at 1:55 PM. Reason : -]

4/12/2013 1:46:39 PM

i set them all to desktop apps too, if i want to open a file with a metro app i just open it through the app.

one major benefit of windows 8 is if you have multiple computers, it can sync most settings and personlizations and easily use skydrive to sync documents and files. i jump between 3 devices and its so much easier now than the workflow i had using dropbox and a couple other solutions.

^8.1 is supposed to add extra customization to the start screen.

[Edited on April 12, 2013 at 1:52 PM. Reason : .]

4/12/2013 1:51:26 PM

you guys should try out ModernMix, metro apps running desktop-style

only way to use Kindle for PC on W8 in desktop apparently

4/13/2013 2:07:29 PM

so, it sounds like 8.1 will mostly likely have a start menu and ability to bypass the metro start upon bootup

perhaps microsoft finally consulted people instead of monkeys

is there the general thought that it's going to cost money, or will it be like a service pack?

[Edited on May 21, 2013 at 2:00 PM. Reason : never mind, it's going to be free]

5/21/2013 1:58:44 PM

^^ there is a kindle desktop client and kindle browser version

5/21/2013 2:09:12 PM

I'm thinking of upgrading to windows 8. Does it come with onestop.mid?

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

5/30/2013 4:07:06 PM

Maybe it does; I know Everything found it on my box, hidden deep within WinSxS, but that could have been a holdover from the stock Windows 7.

5/31/2013 8:02:38 PM

Microsoft must not be doing well, they can't even afford to have a shirt pressed

http://youtu.be/VQb5caeSo00

6/5/2013 1:02:54 PM

got my yoga yesterday...windows 8 with a touchscreen is definitely a different experience

which makes it even dumber that they didn't include an option to use win8 in a more traditional way

6/5/2013 3:06:43 PM

you can use it in an entirely traditional way

6/5/2013 6:02:59 PM

don't be dumb, you know exactly what i mean

touchscreen + metro = usable and somewhat enjoyable after you get used to it

regular screen + metro = what the fuck is this shit

6/6/2013 8:21:30 AM

very well thought out set of fixes for win8
http://www.infoworld.com/d/microsoft-windows/how-windows-red-can-fix-windows-8-the-right-strategy-microsoft-219633

6/6/2013 9:26:04 AM

Quote :

"Microsoft made a peanut butter and pickle sandwich, and the world has recoiled at the thought ever since"

i actually really like peanut butter and pickle sandwiches

seriously

Quote :

"We didn't expect that most traditional Windows applications would require users to manually invoke the onscreen keyboard when in text fields."

i was wondering about that...having only really messed with it for a day, i was confused as to why the keyboard wasn't coming up when the computer was in tablet mode and i clicked a text box...my phone does it, why not my computer?

Quote :

"Microsoft almost never admits a mistake -- it's even more arrogant than Apple in this regard. Microsoft doesn't change its public plans either; for example, despite nine months of growing concerns over Windows 8 and Windows RT before official release, Microsoft shipped its new OSes as is, with zero adjustments to the chorus of criticism. Fine -- Microsoft will release Windows 8.1 "Blue" this fall, with all signs indicating merely cosmetic changes. Users will again avoid Windows PCs and Windows tablets, ceding even more ground to iOS and Android. It's inevitable that 2013 is a lost year. But Microsoft could aim to adopt Windows Red in 2014 -- maybe by spring -- and call it Windows 9. It need not say Windows 8 was a failure, just as it never admitted the Vista fiasco. It can simply move on to the "even better" Windows, as it did with Windows 7's release."

for the most part, i agree with the article...except for the "restart your computer to switch between windows mobile and desktop modes" suggestion...that would get annoying with the quickness, especially when one's using something like the yoga

it's true that windows 8 kinda sucks...i know there are folks who are fighting to claim it's great and it's just the user's unwillingness to get with it, but when the majority says it sucks - and they do - they're correct and the minority is wrong, end of story

i've said before that i actually LIKE windows 8...once you make it stop acting retarded...and that's why like their "windows red" idea...microsoft should listen to their customers, admit their design choices were stupid, and move on with a quickness...and give a free upgrade from 8 to 9

[Edited on June 6, 2013 at 10:35 AM. Reason : .]

6/6/2013 10:22:11 AM

Quote :

"don't be dumb, you know exactly what i mean touchscreen + metro = usable and somewhat enjoyable after you get used to it regular screen + metro = what the fuck is this shit"

i got your point exactly

my point is that you never have to ever use or see metro if you don't want to.

In response to the infoworld article:

Windows Red sounds terrible. Windows Blue >>> Windows Red

6/6/2013 10:50:37 AM

Quote :

"my point is that you never have to ever use or see metro if you don't want to."

not without third-party tweaks...which was why i very specifically said that it was dumb that they didn't include the OPTION

unless you consider having to go through an extra step to get to the desktop and still have no start menu to still be "traditional", despite the fact that it only recently changed after doing it the same way for 17 years?

Quote :

"Windows Red sounds terrible. Windows Blue >>> Windows Red"

i'm genuinely curious as to why you feel this way...windows red, at least, takes microsoft's original idea of trying to bridge PCs and tablets/phones, while blue is (for the most part) fixing the mistakes they made and pointing it back toward windows 7 (for those who feel so inclined)

not that i disagree with that move, but i see the value in trying to move forward...just in a more significant way (which i think most of the red suggestions do)

6/6/2013 10:56:53 AM

i think the overall design flaw is that they designed win8 for the casual consumer when in reality, the casual consumer is using a tablet or their phone and not a form factor win8 is going to install on. the people who have to use computers all day every day and/or choose to use full blown computers when they get home, do not have a form factor to support win8 and don't want to change form factors, because they enjoy the efficiencies they've built over the years.

6/6/2013 11:00:01 AM

^^ I think they're trying to make 4 iterative major updates for the OS...all codenamed for each color of the windows logo (Blue, Yellow, Green, Red).

6/6/2013 2:46:07 PM

^ interesting

well, as long as the upcoming update includes at least the (native) ability to bypass metro upon startup and has a start menu, they can call it windows clownfart for all i care

6/6/2013 2:49:57 PM

you can do that right now, for free

6/6/2013 4:04:02 PM

I don't get why people hate the Metro menu. They say the start menu is gone. I mean, how it is, really?

The start menu is a button you click in the left bottom corner that brings up a list of programs, right? Isn't that literally the same thing the metro screen does? You access it from the left bottom corner, click it, and a list of programs comes up, except it's now in a flashier UI. Everyone is decrying this as an abomination because it's missing the Start menu, and I think that's a stupid opinion.

6/6/2013 5:46:15 PM

try getting to that bottom left corner in an rdp window and get back to me. windows key doesnt work over rdp. try the same with that stupid charms bar

6/6/2013 6:04:43 PM

I want to share this:

http://www.structuretoobig.com/post/2013/05/23/APIMASH-and-Intro-to-Game-Dev-Raleigh.aspx

[Edited on June 6, 2013 at 6:12 PM. Reason : not image]

6/6/2013 6:12:21 PM

^^ but what percentage of users are affected by that?

6/6/2013 7:45:19 PM

it's not like virtualization is going away, so an increasingly large percentage of the windows population (the same metro garbage is the default on winserver 2k12 as well). i wouldn't be surprised if >10% of windows usage happened through an rdp window

6/6/2013 9:00:45 PM

Quote :

"you can do that right now, for free"

well, if that's your argument, then why bother including most features at all?

native image viewer? that's dumb because irfanview can do that for free
native video program? that's dumb because vlc can do that for free
native antivirus? that's dumb because avg can do that for free

heck, i'm not sure why microsoft bothers making an operating system in the first place...ubuntu does it for free

the fact is that whoever thinks removing the start menu and defaulting to a touch interface (whether the hardware includes touch or not) was a good idea are in the vast minority

windows 8 is not highly regarded by the average user because microsoft made a series of stupid decisions and it hurt them...so feel free to go ahead and send microsoft an email with a big gold star in it, but at the end of the day, your opinion means nothing because comparatively few people agree with you

6/7/2013 9:23:42 AM

why are you going into Metro if you don't want to?

6/7/2013 9:44:50 AM

^ i'm not sure where i said that...do you have a quote, or are you being silly again?

6/7/2013 10:06:19 AM

Quote :

"regular screen + metro = what the fuck is this shit"

6/7/2013 10:07:34 AM

oh, no, you're confused...where did i say that's what *i* am doing?

my point is that's exactly what the average user gets UNLESS they pay for a touchscreen unit

i thought you were a smart guy, but you seem confused by this whole thing...and it's really pretty simple

we don't need to rehash it - you think microsoft made a smart choice and everyone else disagrees with you...microsoft is (finally) listening to the majority and they'll make windows 8 less of a PITA to use, end of story

6/7/2013 10:38:41 AM

you can set file associations to avoid metro without any 3rd party software, it comes like that from microsoft. setting file associations works exactly like it did in WIndows 7.

6/7/2013 11:12:23 AM

having to do a ton of hacks to get stuff to work is a shitty user experience. they should just bring back the old start menu and then make it a user choice to have start menu + desktop only, metro only, or the current hybrid system. make start menu+desktop the default for laptops and desktops and make hybrid or metro only the default for tablets.

still have no plans to buy windows 8 or any computers that come w/ windows 8.

6/7/2013 11:33:58 AM

but they want to kill the old start menu entirely, it wouldn't make sense to allow users to use it

6/7/2013 11:41:11 AM

Quote :

"but they want to kill the old start menu entirely, it wouldn't make sense to allow users to use it"

because, clearly, dropping it entirely without any transition has worked so well thus far

6/7/2013 1:02:02 PM

the solution in Blue is a good one

6/7/2013 1:48:32 PM

no its not. its still retarded and they aren't gonna win anyone back until they bring back the old start menu. sticking metro everywhere it didnt belong was probably the worst decision Microsoft has ever made.

6/7/2013 1:53:43 PM

i'm now convinced dtownral is trolling...no way he's serious

6/7/2013 2:03:20 PM