LOL at Middlebrooks picking up his 5th 93 feet from the basket

2/8/2025 8:59:41 PM

So many stupid decisions

2/8/2025 9:05:56 PM

^^i fast forwarded through most of the game but I saw that 5th foul and it was a TERRIBLE bailout call

2/8/2025 9:13:49 PM

damn

2/8/2025 9:17:44 PM

Well damn

2/8/2025 9:18:40 PM

KKIAL

2/8/2025 9:18:59 PM

So uh Parker was fouled on that last 3. Don’t expect them to call it but that’s a foul.

Didn’t like the TO by KK. I know everybody assumes he’s bad at drawing up plays (ignore the ones that work, all the other ones fail). But after breaking the press with like 4 secs left, I think Hill would’ve been better off to just drive to the hoop. But Parker got a decent look after the TO.

2/8/2025 9:21:43 PM

Damn, so many close games this season. Hope we scrape something together to make the conference tournament

2/8/2025 9:28:56 PM

Yeah I'm not going to complain about the play. It put the ball in the hand of our best driver (even though he was clearly playing hurt) and ended with a kickout to the guy with the hot hand. They collapsed on Hill and we couldn't draw a foul on the shot (lol what a surprise!)

Maybe he will finally learn that MOC brings nothing to this team and sit his ass on the bench instead of letting him "initiate the offense"l

2/8/2025 9:34:02 PM

We are like the kansas city chiefs of mens college basketball, except we always lose one possession games

2/8/2025 9:44:51 PM

Try harder

2/8/2025 10:03:02 PM

Anybody know why Pass didn't play today?

2/8/2025 11:18:22 PM

Quote :

"Hope we scrape something together to make the conference tournament"

Maybe some late season transfers from some guys they picked up at the local Y named BJ Durns, JD Borne, and Bo Diarrhea

2/8/2025 11:22:31 PM

We look like the fucking Washington Generals out there

2/12/2025 7:24:45 PM

KK throwing out any random lineup he can to see what sticks, just pathetic. What an ass coaching job and ass group of players. Maybe on lineup attempt 3,847 he’ll find something that sticks!

2/12/2025 7:30:30 PM

I don’t think trying several lineups in a game where our starters are playing like shit and making uncharacteristic turnovers is a sign that Kk is bad coach. That seems like pretty standard coach stuff. Starters and first dudes off the bench suck? Throw a random lineup out there and see what happens

His roster construction was pretty terrible this year. That’s a fair criticism. Pretending like he doesn’t know how to coach is kinda dumb.

[Edited on February 12, 2025 at 7:54 PM. Reason : H]

2/12/2025 7:52:09 PM

I'm beginning to think we're not going to make the final 4 this year.

2/12/2025 7:54:11 PM

In a class of our own!

2/12/2025 8:04:36 PM

Elite company

2/12/2025 8:13:20 PM

Quote :

" Pretending like he doesn’t know how to coach is kinda dumb."

He knows how to coach, the problem is that he’s just not very good at it

2/12/2025 8:28:18 PM

MOC = poor man’s Braxton Albritton

2/12/2025 8:45:18 PM

He’s good at coaching when he wins but he’s bad at coaching when he loses.

2/12/2025 8:46:59 PM

This is clearly the worst effort of the year. All year we’ve been able to stay in games and at least show fight and effort. It’s just not there tonight.

They all pretty much suck.

2/12/2025 8:54:27 PM

Gonna need to go on a run here to not miss the acc tourney

2/12/2025 9:09:29 PM

Silver lining for this season? Beat UNC or WF to ruin their chances at the big dance?

2/12/2025 10:02:58 PM

Only win I see left is BC

2/12/2025 10:20:45 PM

Still not sure how Middlebrooks misses so many shots a few feet from the basket. Watching O’Connel and him shoot is painful. Better just start playing the freshman most of the game.

2/12/2025 11:03:04 PM

I've watched fewer games this season than i have in probably 20+ years.

2/13/2025 10:47:07 AM

even the student section was half empty

I remember when people would do all kinds of things to get tickets

2/13/2025 11:14:21 AM

usually I'd still be kinda paying attention to the team but i have legitimately already forgotten half of our "players'" names and dont even bother checking scores or complaining about the game on twitter

a whole new level of apathy. how tf did we squander every shred of momentum a FF run should have generated for the program?

2/13/2025 11:36:10 AM

Momentum doesn't really matter? It's pretty much exclusively about money and we aren't near the top in that and it shows. Basketball used to be about recruiting and coaching strategies. Those things matter so much less now than how much you can offer players in NIL deals. It sucks, but that's the reality of major college sports now.

2/13/2025 2:10:13 PM

Momentum not mattering works both ways. You can be great one year and it not carry over to the next year. Or you can be dogshit one year and still quickly rebuild to have a good team the following year.

But when fans lose interest and give up on a coach then the NIL funds probably suffer. You have to maintain fan interest to keep the dollars coming. It’s a terrible system that the fans foot the bill but here we are

2/13/2025 2:36:01 PM

Yes, but even the ACC championship and final four appearance didn't really increase the amount of NIL money available. Investment has to come before success. You aren't going to build a perennial contender on a shoestring budget. Other programs will just come in and be like HEY BRO COME PLAY FOR US WE'LL PAY YOU TWICE AS MUCH

People want to bitch about sports not winning but then they also don't want to give a shit ton of money to change it. Personally this is why i try not to care about college sports now. I still watch state games but i don't let it bother me (besides MOC playing any minutes.) The capitalistic greed broke the system and while I'm glad players are getting a cut now, having fans foot the bill instead of the people that have made fortunes off the backs of unpaid labor is wrong. Now the only thing that matters is how much money you have to throw at the problem. Until a "salary cap" is instituted (which won't happen without collective bargaining, which won't happen without players being officially classified as employees, which won't happen while the ncaa exists) this will be the way things are. Just a worse version of MLB where the richest win the most and a bunch of teams are just putting bad product on the field/court because it makes them money no matter how much/little they spend.

TL;DR college sports suck now

2/13/2025 4:09:54 PM

Yeah I can’t argue with any of that.

Money is the solution. Changing coaches might help. But getting fans to pony up more money will matter even more.

[Edited on February 13, 2025 at 5:18 PM. Reason : Which, again, is a dumb fucking system ]

2/13/2025 5:18:41 PM

I mean i can't see fans giving much more money after a coaching change of they didn't after an ACC championship and final four.

Also any new coaching candidates will be limited both by the budget to pay the coach and the NIL budget. We'd be bargain basement coach shopping as well. The best candidates will take one look at the NIL situation and politely decline. There's no good solution that doesn't involve dramatically increasing the amount of fan money poured in. It sucks and i hate it.

2/13/2025 5:32:56 PM

Yeah just to clarify, when I said “coaching changes might help” what I meant was…if you think KK is an objectively poor coach then maybe bringing in a new coach makes things marginally better. But yes, money is the only thing that will drastically change anything. Seems to me like that means a drastic change at the university level in how we approach fundraising but I’m just a dumb fan that doesn’t donate money so what do I know

2/13/2025 5:47:33 PM

I will increase my contributions by 10000% if we fire Keatts!

2/13/2025 7:29:41 PM

I will match your contribution pledge by taking what I donate now, multiplying by zero, and adding that to what I currently give.

Although I would bet NCSU is going to try and get more blood from the turnips soon

2/13/2025 7:39:22 PM

I'm confused why people are saying we're at the bottom of the NIL pile? The transfer class was top 25 and so was the recruiting class.

The talent level of our players doesn't seem to be the problem, its the way they're being used.

2/13/2025 10:24:44 PM

We're not at the bottom, but we're also nowhere near the top, even within our own conference. We aren't going to realistically be a perennial conference title contender like people want without a hefty increase in that budget.

Also i would argue that talent level is definitely an issue. No one can shoot. Our starting PG is awful. We have 1.5 bigs and none that can play without fouling. I'm not sure if any of our players would start on any other ACC team. Maybe Hill. Maybe Taylor. That's it, and those probably only on other bad teams.

2/13/2025 10:38:56 PM

^^the talent level is absolutely a big part of the problem

2/13/2025 10:42:19 PM

^ if you buy that a bunch of guys just forgot how to play basketball. Inconsistency has to be on the coach at some point.

Quote :

"No one can shoot."

I see this as a side effect of the offensive schemes, over utilization on a player (Hill) that isn't able to create offense for other guys on the floor, playing guys out of positions they fit best into, etc. Also, Parker has been shooting just fine -- why not play him more if shooting ability was the problem. Or Pass for that matter, who has been the most efficient stat wise.

Quote :

"We have 1.5 bigs and none that can play without fouling."

I offer that Diouf can play without fouling, and was actually having a pretty good run at it against a top level 7' player.

I guess I just see a lot more talent than y'all do, lol.


[Edited on February 13, 2025 at 11:10 PM. Reason : edit edit edit]

2/13/2025 10:58:26 PM

Here are some eye-opening stats about our relative talent level:

#1: Unless I missed someone, Breon Pass would be the highest rated (90) player on Clemson's roster according to 247sports HS recruiting ratings.

#2: We have five active players who meet or exceed Pass' rating. Dennis Parker Jr. (90), Paul McNeil(92), O'Connel(92), Dontrez Styles (95), and Brandon Huntley-Hatfield(98). Mike James(91) also fits that bill but obviously has been hurt all year.

#3: Huntley-Hatfield was ranked #24 his year, Dontrez Styles #63. If either one had gone to Clemson, they would be Brad Brownell's highest ranked recruit during his entire tenure.

2/14/2025 12:09:13 AM

I know what the rankings say. But these dudes are all role players. Breon Pass very clearly would not be getting real for Clemson. He’s small, has a decent shot, can’t guard, and can’t run the point. I don’t care what his ranking was 4 or 5 years ago. Same goes for MOC…can’t shoot, can’t defend, cant confidently run the point and initiate the offense. Whatever is recruiting ranking was 5 years ago is not remotely indicative of what he brings to the table. He has a track record of playing his entire career at the P5/4 level and it’s clear he’s just not that good. There’s not a single difference maker on the roster. Maybe one of the freshmen develop into that. But these are guys who would thrive as being the 3rd or 4th scoring option and instead they’re the 1st and 2nd scoring option. Parker has shown some promise and that’s exciting. He’s also had some major boneheaded mistakes at times. He’s just a freshman and is of course allowed a learning curve. But it’s clear that he’s still raw. There’s potential there. Styles 3 pt percentage is like 35%, that’s not bad but he’s a catch and shoot guy. Not somebody that can hunt his own shot. Our guard play is pretty bad. One of our bigs seems to play only when we wants to. We either choose not to ever push tempo or our guards are unable to. The roster construction is just bad. And that’s on the coach.

Brownell had pretty bad results for his first several seasons at Clemson before this recent run of solid teams. Do we think he learned how to coach all of a sudden?

[Edited on February 14, 2025 at 6:41 AM. Reason : A]

2/14/2025 6:38:14 AM

We are a women's basketball school now

2/14/2025 9:02:39 AM

Quote :

"Brownell had pretty bad results for his first several seasons at Clemson before this recent run of solid teams. Do we think he learned how to coach all of a sudden?"

To be fair, their best players the past couple of seasons have been seniors and super seniors that Brownell recruited/developed…they haven’t gone out and bought any go-to guys other than Girrard last season, just a bunch of role players. He’s not done too bad considering they’ve never been able to recruit well there.

2/14/2025 10:05:54 AM

Quote :

" Here are some eye-opening stats about our relative talent level: #1: Unless I missed someone, Breon Pass would be the highest rated (90) player on Clemson's roster according to 247sports HS recruiting ratings. #2: We have five active players who meet or exceed Pass' rating. Dennis Parker Jr. (90), Paul McNeil(92), O'Connel(92), Dontrez Styles (95), and Brandon Huntley-Hatfield(98). Mike James(91) also fits that bill but obviously has been hurt all year. #3: Huntley-Hatfield was ranked #24 his year, Dontrez Styles #63. If either one had gone to Clemson, they would be Brad Brownell's highest ranked recruit during his entire tenure."

This is all just evidence that these recruiting rankings/services are largely worthless more than anything.

2/14/2025 10:11:38 AM

Quote :

"But these are guys who would thrive as being the 3rd or 4th scoring option and instead they’re the 1st and 2nd scoring option."

I don't really see this as how college basketball works for most teams. Kids aren't showing up to campus already sorted into 1st option guy, 4th option guy, etc. Its very dependent on the other players around them, being coached to their potential, etc. And most teams don't have one just absolute standout dude that creates their own offense consistently. Plenty of teams are able to have success with option 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d and 1e. You can scheme to get a team of catch and shoot guys open for high percentage shots. One of the greatest scorers in modern college basketball was a catch and shoot guy (JJ Reddick). And I don't even think we are just a team of catch and shoot guys. We have multiple guys that can do more, but something about our approach sees them driving into the teeth of defenses more often than not.

Quote :

"Brownell had pretty bad results for his first several seasons at Clemson before this recent run of solid teams. Do we think he learned how to coach all of a sudden?"

I think he was always able to coach. The point is he is competing with much less talent than we have.

For some reason people want to blame our player's abilities. I contend that there are coaches that would take the talent we have and be in the top 5 of this year's ACC. I'm not even saying Keatts is necessarily a bad coach. There are a lot of good qualities he has. But I do think he is very set on a certain style of play and lineup, and is way too slow to adjust to get the most out of the players he has available.

2/14/2025 11:40:40 AM

I don’t know man. You and I just disagree. When you compare this team to most of the other KK teams that have been good (or even the ones that haven’t been good tbh), it just feels like a poorly constructed roster. Poor shooting. Weak guard play. Nobody that can really create their own shot consistently. The things that Kk teams have always been good at, this team just isn’t good at. I don’t say any of that to absolve KK. He built the roster. And did a bad job. I think BHH was a poor scouting job tbh. MOC has no business playing 30 mins/game in the ACC, yet KK didn’t go out and get a PG in the offseason. The Mike James thing seems like a complete fluke and maybe things look differently with him healthy.

Quote :

" Kids aren't showing up to campus already sorted into 1st option guy, 4th option guy, etc. It’s very dependent on the other players around them, being coached to their potential, etc. And most teams don't have one just absolute standout dude that creates their own offense consistently"

Kids do show up to college (or out of the portal) as being elite scorers or capable of creating offense when the offense is otherwise stagnant. That’s a skill that this roster does not have. Whether they are pre sorted into categories of “option 1” vs “option 4” is taking what I said I little too literal. Of course it’s all dependent on how the roster is constructed around them. It’s why MOC or Middlebrooks or even Taylor were seemingly better last year. They had a better roster around them and weren’t being asked to do as much as they are this year. Now they’re forced into roles that aren’t capable of handling. Marcus Hill would be a fine guard coming off the bench to provide some offense. Instead he’s being asked to be the primary scorer and he can’t shoot for shit. That’s a bad recipe.

Quote :

" The point is he is competing with much less talent than we have. "

I don’t buy this. We are not loaded with talent right now. Clemson has better players than we do. I don’t think this is like some of the final Gott or Lowe seasons where you looked around saw legit talent like Zo Brown, CJ Leslie or Yurtseven and Dennis Smith and the team just straight up not competing.


[Edited on February 14, 2025 at 12:13 PM. Reason : Hh]

2/14/2025 12:11:18 PM

I think this column summary would claim that on offense it's talent, on defense it's both.
https://www.trinityroadtimes.com/post/kevin-keatts-and-the-application-of-basketball-philosophy

Regardless, it it is talent, Keatts isn't off the hook. He recruited these players, either by choice or bc he couldnt convince others.

2/14/2025 12:58:20 PM