14.

(jeez how many times am I gonna get this, or are ya'll saving it for me)

5/6/2007 12:57:29 AM

nash gets hurt...suns completely fall apart in the last minute...no coincidence

5/6/2007 6:22:48 PM

completely fall apart? they got a nice layup the refs just robbed them twice.

5/6/2007 6:23:57 PM

sloppy ball handling and missed layups?

5/6/2007 6:25:56 PM

and I don't think Barbosa makes that intentional foul in the backcourt (not the Tony Parker flop that cost the game) but the other one....Nash sucks at defense, but he directs the entire team.

5/6/2007 9:33:19 PM

Allow me to title this post Why Steve Nash is not the NBA MVP


There are eight teams remaining in the NBA playoffs. Of those teams lets evaluate their PG's.

If you were to swap Steve Nash with any of the following five PG's, neither team would show a marked improvement. They would all be slightly better at best.

Baron Davis - GS
Deron Williams - Utah
Tony Parker - SA
Chauncey Billups - DET
Jason Kidd - NJ

Chicago would clearly improve by swapping Hinrich for Nash (although Hinrich is a pretty good PG himself).

Cleveland does not use a PG. They get away with this b/c their SG Larry Hughes has good ballhandling and Lebron James operates as a point-forward. They would vastly improve with Steve Nash particularly since they don't have a viable PG on the roster.

In summary, Nash is nearly interchangeable with 5 of the starting 7 PG's remaining in the playoffs and only a dramatic improvement for one team.



Contrast this to Kobe Bryant.

Vince Carter - NJ Probably the closest any SG in the playoffs comes to comparing to Kobe. Vince still can't score at the same level Kobe can and his defense pales in comparison. NJ would improve with Kobe and would possibly be darkhorse contenders.

Sasha Pavlovic - Cle Cleveland goes from being EastConf contenders to EastConf champions and likely wins the NBA title.

Raja Bell - Phoe Phoenix wins the title hands down. They probably win 70+ regular season games.

Mike Finley - SA SA wins the title hands down. This team would be absolutely unbeatable in the 4th quarter between Duncan/Kobe. Potential to go 16-0 in the playoffs.

Gordon Giricek - Utah This guy blows. The one position Utah needs badly is SG. Kobe would make this team deadly and they'd likely win the title.

Rip Hamilton - Det Rip is every bit as clutch as Kobe but he's a little soft defensively and he doesn't have three point range. Kobe would make the Pistons an unbeatable team.

Ben Gordon - He's got the killer instinct and scoring ability but he's no Kobe yet. Demonstrates the most potential out of this group though. Chicago gets better but they probably don't win the title since they lack post scoring.

Jason Richardson - GS I chose J-Rich to represent GS at SG because he's a more conventional SG than Monta Ellis (who projects as a PG/SG combo). The Warriors are the one team that I don't think would become that much better athletically or necessairly need the scoring or perimeter defense (pietrus fills that role), but they could use Kobe's experience and clutch shooting. The Warriors likely get better but im not sure they win the title or anything.

5/8/2007 5:55:40 PM

That is an interesting post and much of what you said is true. It doesn't prove Steve Nash is not the mvp. More than that, it proves the importance of a good PG in order to advance in the playoffs. It is common knowledge that SGs and athletic swingmen are a dime/dozen. Kobe may or may not be the mvp, but his team simply didn't win enough.

5/8/2007 6:18:31 PM

If SG are a dime a dozen then why are there so few good ones remaining in the playoffs?

It appears to me that quality PG's are not a rarity.

5/8/2007 6:39:22 PM

PGs have a bigger impact on their team's success. So it could be argued that a good PG is a more valuable player than a good SG just because of their impact on the game. Having an effective and efficient PG wins games and can make everyone play better. So all the good ones are still around. All of the SGs you just mentioned are really good with the exception of Raja Bell and pavlovic. I guess the way to see what I'm saying, though it is pointless since it is a team game. I would guess there are quality SGs watching these games from home than quality PG.

I mean I agree with what you say about Kobe to some degree. You make some assumptions that you just couldn't make. For example, the difference between Rip Hamilton and Kobe is not that wide. Hamilton isn't soft on D and he led the league in 3pt % last year, so he has range he just doesn't pull the trigger as often as Kobe. The Bulls get much better, Kobe is one of the best guards in the post, so he provides what they need. If you trade Kobe and Raja Bell they do improve, but if you trade Kobe and Nash, the Suns might actually get worse. You also seem to give way too much credit to the players on the Suns not named Nash. Tonight, when you watch the game, show me when a player besides Barbosa (who benefits from being guarded by 2s have the time) scores on his own or gets open without Nash making the pass or the pass before the assist. All that said, if the Lakers won more games, Kobe would be the MVP. It should be Nash, but it is going to be Dirk. It's unfortunately a team reward.

5/8/2007 8:28:18 PM

5/8/2007 8:59:46 PM

Quote :

"Tonight, when you watch the game, show me when a player besides Barbosa (who benefits from being guarded by 2s have the time) scores on his own or gets open without Nash making the pass or the pass before the assist."

The problem with the PHX system is that it is designed for Nash to be that creator. I remember reading an interview with Shawn Marion a while back, he said he was disappointed that his assist numbers were always low... but then said he knew it was due to him not having to be a creator too much.

Marion would average 23 10 and 7 anywhere else in the NBA

5/9/2007 1:17:45 AM

Marion woul not average thsoe numbers on another team. He thinks he would. He is consistently one of the cockiest interviews in the league. There is not a 20ppg scorer in the league with as little size and or skill. 7 assists a game is a lot, you're putting the ball in his hands as much, if not more, than Kobe. The guy just isn't that good and isn't that type of player. I do agree that the system is designed for Nash to dominate the ball and thus the stats.....but they win that way and didn't win before, probably is the best possible fit for the personnel they have.

5/9/2007 3:19:24 PM

What rallydurham is TRYING to say (I think - correct me if I'm wrong rallydurham) is that Steve Nash is a System player. He is the equivalent to Jeff Garcia in the NFL. Garcia does well in San Fran and in Philly due to their style of play.

and then also Kobe is the best player in the league and lets not try to be silly and deny this.

which by the way rallydurham is absolutely correct on both points.

5/9/2007 3:29:43 PM

He is correct on both of those points. Kobe is the best player in the league, but he isn't the mvp.

5/9/2007 3:37:30 PM

Steve Nash isn't a system player. He makes passes that nobody else in the NBA can make. His decision-making, particularly on the break, is unparalleled. He's also one of the best shooters in the business and one of only a handful of perimeter players who hits more than 50% of his shots.

5/9/2007 4:09:41 PM

Prawnstar you just made my point for me. Nash is probably the best in the NBA at making decisions during a FAST BREAK situation. Put him on the pistons or the spurs and see how he does. Nash is a system player. I know it hurts you to admit it but he is a SYSTEM player. I have no problem admitting he is great at what he does, but lets be honest, what he does is excel at one specific type of basketball.

5/9/2007 4:14:45 PM

Your definition of system player is all fucked up.

A system player looks better than he is because of a system he plays in.

Nash creates the system, and makes his teammates better accordingly.

[Edited on May 9, 2007 at 4:22 PM. Reason : 2]

5/9/2007 4:21:43 PM

I like how Marion wouldnt do shit on any other team, yet Nash would flourish and average 12 assists per game if he didnt have multiple all stars on his team to throw alley oops to

5/9/2007 4:50:23 PM

Quote :

"If SG are a dime a dozen then why are there so few good ones remaining in the playoffs? It appears to me that quality PG's are not a rarity. "

Rubbish.

5/9/2007 5:07:42 PM

Quote :

"I like how Marion wouldnt do shit on any other team"

Who said this?

5/9/2007 5:17:21 PM

montclair

"There is not a 20ppg scorer in the league with as little size and or skill"

little skill? gimme a break, marion is an all star

5/9/2007 5:23:27 PM

Marion has averaged more than 20 ppg twice in his 8 year career. Once with Nash and once without.

His field-goal percentage and rebounds per game have gone up markedly over the last 3 years. His assists per game dropped from around 2.5 to around 2 per game in that time period. There is no way in hell he would average 7 assists per game for any team. He is not that good of a ballhandler.

Read into it however you want, but Marion has never been a prolific scorer or an amazing passer either for that matter. He's a freak athlete who gets most of his points in the paint.

[Edited on May 9, 2007 at 5:35 PM. Reason : 2]

5/9/2007 5:32:53 PM

he's an NBA All Star

he is one of the most versatile players in the game...he can literally guard all 5 positions...and while he gets many points in the paint off, he can also hit the outside shot

nobody is saying marion is an amazing passer that can get assists like nash...but you're crazy if you dont think he's one of the top 20 players in the league and he happens to be one of the two top 20 players in the league that nash has the privledge to play with

5/9/2007 5:36:00 PM

^^i agree with this post. i was going to post something about how dumb the 7 assists per game statement was but didn't get around to it.

^i think marion is borderline top 20...without making a list, i'd venture a guess that he'd be around 25 on my list

5/9/2007 5:41:00 PM

True, he is an all-star. He's been an all-star each of the last 3 years. He made it once before Nash joined the team.

Nash has been good for Marion, and Marion has been good for Nash. That much is obvious. The idea that Marion would be better without Nash is pretty dumb, though. Saying stuff like "he would average 23 10 and 7 for anyone else" is just stupid.

5/9/2007 5:41:16 PM

well im not making those claims, but i could easily claim if you took stoudamire and marion off the suns, they would be a 41 win team

i guess my only point is that marion's and stoudamire's value to the suns is HUGE while nash seems to be the only one who gets the credit

5/9/2007 5:54:27 PM

Marion = Odom

5/9/2007 5:58:56 PM

Steve Nash = Brevin Knight

5/9/2007 6:00:12 PM

I wasn't saying he wasn't an all star. but he wouldn't score 23ppg, 10 rebounds and 7 assists. Come on, that's nuts.

and I don't think he is top 20 in the league. Before you call me crazy

Kidd, Nash, Billups, Wade, Kobe,Carmelo, Iverson, Shaq, KG, Duncan, Parker, Pierce, Carter, Arenas, McGrady, Yao Ming, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Dwight Howard, Okafor, Ray Allen, Joe Johnson and aguably Caron Butler are all better than Shawn Marion. I may be forgetting someone, and you might try and argue that Marion is better than Billups or Carlos Boozer but I couldn't agree with that. If you traded Marion with any of these players, said teams get significantly worse and the Suns may even become much better (or not, like if he was traded for yao)

Marion has no offensive moves, he is a product of the system and garbage buckets. He is an above average defender. He idn't make either all Defense team. He is probably the most versatile defender in the league....he can guard all positions. THough, he prefers to play as a 3 and guard them. His versatility on defense is only used and highlighted because of the system he is in. While he can guard big men, he is only asked to do that because dantoni thinks that is how he is going to win and it creates favorable matchups on the offensive end whcih he takes advantage of.

notice I did not put Amare on that list of players that are better than Marion.

Marion is a great player and the Suns wouldn't be where they are without him, it is just nuts to suggest 23 10 and 7.... His Defense is wonderful and to help your case Marion is ranked 12th n the league in Hollinger's PER, that doesn't count his great Defense. I honestly just was stunned by the 7 assists a game. I have read two difference artcicles lately where Marion says how he sacrifices so many stats for the team and how he'd like to be the main guy on a team. It just seems obvious if Marion was on a team where he was the best player, that would be a really bad team.



[Edited on May 9, 2007 at 8:12 PM. Reason : ,]

5/9/2007 7:51:06 PM

yeah, you forgot LeBron.

5/10/2007 12:12:51 AM

ha yeah I did. I'm stupid.

5/10/2007 1:18:00 AM

oh where oh where could the Kobe be?

5/13/2007 9:56:07 AM

^It's because his team sucks for the thousand time.

5/13/2007 10:08:27 AM

man, i hope he takes a good vacation this year

5/13/2007 10:26:10 AM

he is gone

wait no he isn't.

[Edited on May 31, 2007 at 9:28 PM. Reason : . he keeps changing his fucking mind.]

5/31/2007 9:27:50 PM

LETS SEE NASH DO THIS

5/31/2007 9:30:00 PM

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6883282?MSNHPHMA

pretty much what everybody has been arguing all along.... very good article and so very very true!!!

6/4/2007 8:36:44 AM

^Good find and read.

Ive been saying all along that Lebron is winning with about the same amount of talent that Kobe has.

Hell even dumbass bigstatemain said: Marion = Odom

6/4/2007 9:19:14 AM

That article was dumb

Quote :

"he gets his teammates involved...It's not just the LeBron show. He's not a Kobe Bryant where he's just going to go out there and score at all costs."

Oh really, is that how he scored his team's last 25 points in game 5?

6/4/2007 9:23:24 AM

the same way he is responsible for most of the teams assists


?

6/4/2007 9:28:24 AM

Little known fact, Kobe is also responsible for most of his team's assists, and in fact, only .6 less per game than the great Lebron

http://www.nba.com/lakers/stats/2006/index.html

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/stats/2006/index.html

6/4/2007 9:33:57 AM

as the article mentions... when is the last time you ever heard any of Kobe's teammates talk about learning from Kobe, or enjoying playing with him..... you never hear anything but praise for Lebron from his teammates, and you hear the exact opposite about Kobe.... the article put it very well when it said that Lebron plays for the team, and Kobe plays for Kobe!

6/4/2007 9:59:19 AM

nobody ever learned anything from shaq except "gimme the ball im big guy just dont make me shoot free throws"

6/4/2007 10:22:32 AM

people like playing with shaq though, he has always been known as an excellent passer and is very good at finding open teammates out of double teams for good shots. the only time kobe passes is when he is caught up in the air by three defenders and has no other place to go with the ball. kobe makes at least 3-4 absoultely crazy passes every game when he gets caught up in the air with the ball and just has to throw it out to the first person he sees. he doesn't set people up at all!

6/4/2007 10:27:19 AM

kobe is a much better passer than shaq

6/4/2007 10:41:00 AM

that is funny to compare, not that i don't agree. but there is no similarity between passing from the low post and passing when three defenders are on you...and only then.

6/4/2007 8:40:24 PM

Quote :

"Ive been saying all along that Lebron is winning with about the same amount of talent that Kobe has."

There is absolutely no fall off between Z and Kwame Brown/Andrew Bynum.
There is no difference in winning in the Eastern Conference and the Western Conference.

6/5/2007 9:28:06 AM

Who does Lebron have that is as good or better than a healthy Lamar Odom? Who does Lebron have that is as good or better than Caron Butler (before LA foolishly traded him)?

6/5/2007 10:22:42 AM

Who does Kobe have that is as good or better than Larry Nance? (before he foolishly retired from Cleveland in 1994)?

6/5/2007 10:29:02 AM