http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

7/17/2014 12:36:08 PM

^^and hamas and other Palestinians would say they need to stop or kill the people that drive them from their homes, occupy their land, and kill 100s of innocent Palestinians every year...

[Edited on July 17, 2014 at 12:36 PM. Reason : ]

7/17/2014 12:36:14 PM

What exactly was it that Hamas did not get that they want causing them to disagree with the latest ceasefire? What are they asking for? (I'm not trying to make a point, I'm just wondering if they have a list)

7/17/2014 12:41:51 PM

From FoxNews:

Quote :

"An Egyptian newspaper reporting on the cease-fire negotiations claimed that Israel had refused to consider a Hamas demand that Gaza residents be allowed access to the Al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, considered Islam's third-holiest site. Another reported sticking point was Hamas' demand for the release of six prisoners initially freed by Israel as part of an exchange for a captured IDF soldier, but later re-arrested in the West Bank. Also Thursday, a Jerusalem court indicted a 29-year-old and two 16-year-olds in the death of Mohammed Abu Khdeir, 16, whose charred body was found after he was reported kidnapped. According to the indictment, the suspects went out for a "man hunt" that ended when they "cruelly" killed Abu Khdeir.."

[Edited on July 17, 2014 at 12:49 PM. Reason : ]

7/17/2014 12:48:10 PM

I was under the impression that Israel is not only allowing Muslims into the Mosque, but that non Muslims aren't even allowed in there...as if it's not even under Israel's control (obviously it is under their control in the end, but I think they stay out of it day to day

How is Israel denying them access? They don't let them leave Gaza?

[Edited on July 17, 2014 at 1:00 PM. Reason : asdf]

7/17/2014 12:51:07 PM

There must have been a member of Hamas hiding among those kids playing soccer. Amirite? Burro? Amirite? Maybe the actual soccer ball was mistaken for a kickable missile?

7/17/2014 1:27:05 PM

^^I don't know the details, but I"m pretty sure Palestenians can't just freely leave gaza and cruise into Israli territory. There's all kinds of restrictions and checks points and road blocks and bureacracy and police-state stuff.

7/17/2014 1:31:05 PM

The prisoner exchange might be a valid point I guess, but I can certainly see Israel's argument for not wanting to let a bunch of people that are probably pissed off at them travel through to the other side of their country into a massively populated area

7/17/2014 1:59:54 PM

The people of Gaza live in an apartheid state, they can't move freely

7/17/2014 2:08:15 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/world/middleeast/through-lens-4-boys-dead-by-gaza-shore.html?smid=fb-share

An account by a journalist of the kids killed for playing on the beach.

7/17/2014 3:18:09 PM

Israel has launched ground operations into Gaza

7/17/2014 3:50:42 PM

The unfortunate reality is that Palestinians must ask themselves if they would rather continue to be slowly eradicated, oppressed, and murdered......or.....if they would rather live as second class citizens within an expanded Israeli border (where they would still likely be oppressed) while under apartheid rule.

They simply do not have the military might, geopolitical advantage, or powerful enough allies to continue fighting for independence.

It's an absolute shit awful decision to have to make.

7/17/2014 5:10:58 PM

They have the ability to catch the people firing rockets. He'll they catch the rockets. Why does anyone need to die when you have an iron dome?

7/17/2014 5:59:22 PM

Because they're not acting in self-defense. It's a land grab. All of this is a pre-text for colonial expansion.

It's not a war. It's a conquest.

7/17/2014 6:22:49 PM

i am not very educated on the matter, so do not consider this question a defense of israel. but, with conditions so terrible in gaza, why does egypt do nothing on their end? israel isn't the only one blocking them off.

7/17/2014 7:30:53 PM

#muslimbrotherhood

7/17/2014 7:39:42 PM

I haven't posted in response to this because I had loved ones in Israel the last month and didn't want to comment based on pure emotions. Everyone is back home safe now, so here's a few thoughts.

The IDF gives advance notice to populated areas before a strike. They make it clear there are military targets nearby and they should get out. Hamas instead encourages people to stay close to military targets. When Hamas launches rockets into Israeli cities, the only warning they get is the red alarm, which depending on which city means they have 15-90 seconds to get into a bomb shelter. Count to 15, and ask yourself if you'd still be alive if the rocket landed near you.

Since July 7, over 1,000 rockets have been fired by Hamas and about 700 of them have landed inside of Israel. The only reason there have not been massive Israeli casualties is because at this point they are so used to running for shelter. If Hamas got their hands on faster-moving and more powerful rockets, there's no way the Iron Dome could stop them all and the news would have a different story to report. So by taking out those launchers and blocking trade from countries that would deliver Hamas with better weaponry, yes Israel is defending itself.

Hamas has not only hit Israeli targets, but their indiscriminate use of firepower has also taken out a UN warehouse that was holding... wait for it... humanitarian aid for Gaza civilians. Another rocket that landed in Israel took out a set of power lines... which had been providing electricity to over 70,000 Palestinians. When Hamas isn't putting it's own people in danger, they are helping to make their lives more miserable.

Hamas supporters are using images from previous conflicts, and even unrelated conflicts in Syria and Iraq, to garner sympathy. BBC, which has been very critical of Israel, even reported on it: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28198622. There was also an image circulated of a dead Palestinian girl... that was really a screen shot from one of the Final Destination movies (you'd think the fact she was wearing a mini-skirt was enough of a giveaway but way too many people believed it was real).

From The Guardian, about 45 minutes ago, regarding the ground attack:

Quote :

"Reuters has filed an update confirming earlier reports that this invasion is not intended to vanquish Hamas forces in Gaza, but rather to close the tunnels into Israel that 13 Palestinian gunmen used on Thursday to infiltrate Israeli territory."

Let's not forget that those 13 gunmen entered Israel with intent DURING A CEASEFIRE that was meant as a time for delivering civilian aid.

Hamas does not value the lives of the Palestinian people and is more concerned with destroying Israel than bringing peace to their own people.

7/18/2014 12:23:15 AM

Israel has pushed gazans into desperation. Bog surprise they have hamas. Open it up and let them prosper and it will be less hamas dupport duh

7/18/2014 2:40:23 AM

Quote :

"The IDF gives advance notice to populated areas before a strike. They make it clear there are military targets nearby and they should get out."

get out and go where? they are trapped inside Gaza, there isn't anywhere to go.

Quote :

"When Hamas launches rockets into Israeli cities, the only warning they get is the red alarm, which depending on which city means they have 15-90 seconds to get into a bomb shelter. Count to 15, and ask yourself if you'd still be alive if the rocket landed near you."

the Hamas rockets are weak, the Israeli attacks use much larger bombs. here is how much notice the IDF gives, first they land a small bomb on your roof and less than a minute later they blow up the building:
http://youtu.be/waSPsI9-ge8

Quote :

"Since July 7, over 1,000 rockets have been fired by Hamas and about 700 of them have landed inside of Israel."

and few people have died because they are small rockets, the Israeli response is disproportionate and just perpetuates the attacks against Israel but breeding new terrorists.

Quote :

"Hamas has not only hit Israeli targets, but their indiscriminate use of firepower has also taken out a UN warehouse that was holding... wait for it... humanitarian aid for Gaza civilians."

IDF forces have bombed UN bases. They killed unarmed UN peacekeepers during the Lebanon conflict in '06 and bombed a UN school in Gaza in '09.

Quote :

"Hamas supporters are using images from previous conflicts, and even unrelated conflicts in Syria and Iraq"

the pictures that were just posted are not fake, multiple well-respected international news agencies witnessed the murder of those 4 children.

Quote :

"ut rather to close the tunnels into Israel that 13 Palestinian gunmen used on Thursday to infiltrate Israeli territory.""

those tunnels are also used to bring food, medicine, and building supplies into Gaza since they have been embargoed and live in an apartheid state.

7/18/2014 8:15:45 AM

Ayman Mohyeldin, the reporter who witnessed the attack on the 4 Palestinian children, has been removed from Gaza by NBC. NBC claims it is for safety reasons, however they replaced him with a different reporter.

NBC insiders have spoken out because they are angry that he has been removed for giving balanced and even-handed reporting, and you are not allowed to do that. Ayman Mohyeldin was removed because his reporting was not pro-Israel enough.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/17/nbc-removes-ayman-mohyeldin-gaza-coverage-witnesses-israeli-beach-killing-four-boys/
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/17/1314670/-Intercept-NBC-News-Pulls-Top-Reporter-from-Gaza-After-He-Witnesses-Israeli-Attack-on-Children

7/18/2014 8:19:42 AM

http://www.clickhole.com/blogpost/you-cant-spell-israel-without-liars-commentary-548

7/18/2014 12:24:28 PM

lol, wat?

7/18/2014 12:48:30 PM

(sorry)

7/18/2014 12:50:07 PM

Quote :

" I haven't posted in response to this because I had loved ones in Israel the last month and didn't want to comment based on pure emotions. Everyone is back home safe now, so here's a few thoughts."

It blows my fucking mind that you understand that you have an emotional response to the situation, and then turn around and try to offer an objective analysis. You very clearly have a bias that is clouding your judgement..... Because no neutral observer would offer the "dropping off leaflets" before bombing a building as evidence of moral restraint.


Here's your logic:

Hamas is bad, they use buildings they know are occupied by civilians for shelter!

Israel is good, they bomb buildings they know are occupied by civilians, but they sprinkle them with warnings first!

7/18/2014 2:57:40 PM

it's bugs me that he can't understand how shortsighted reactions like this are. forcing Palestinians to live in these conditions, then then responding disproportionately when terrorists attach Israel is only going to increase the number of terrorists and rocket attacks on Israel. If you want to end rocket attacks, stop the embargo and take actions to help provide opportunities for the people of Palestine, otherwise you are just going to get more of this same shit.

The stated goal of the ground offensive is to close tunnels and stop rocket attacks, the problem is that this isn't going to work. We know this isn't going to work, this isn't conjecture this has all been done before and not even that long ago.

In 2008-2009 Israel invaded Gaza to close tunnels and stop rocket attacks, during that offensive Israel killed hundreds of Palestinians.

(click for fullsize)

despite invading and killing hundreds just a few years ago, here we are today in the same situation. Why should Israel and the world expect this to be more effective or have a different result? It won't, we will be back to this in a few more years, this is insanity.

The longer that Israel treats Palestinians as sub-humans and prevents them from having any kind of opportunities, the longer they will attack Israel with rockets. Israel needs to stop, even if that means that they don't respond to rocket attacks with air campaigns, even if that means that Israel responds unilaterally without recognition-in-kind from the Palestinians. Is that unfair to Israel? Yes, it is, and a few people on both sides will continue to die, but the economic and military power and advantages that Israel has means that they have a higher responsibility to temper their reactions.

If Israel wants peace in the region then they need to stop reacting like this, the world is tired of Israel's shit and its only a matter of time until the US is too. If Israel continues to react like this and build settlements, then it should be obvious that it isn't about defense but about getting rid of Palestinians and seizing and annexing their land.


[Edited on July 18, 2014 at 3:41 PM. Reason : smaller image]

7/18/2014 3:38:05 PM

Firing rockets is unequivocally wrong, but I think it's pretty clear that Israel wants Palestine gone just as much as Palestine wants Israel gone. It's just that Israel has been winning, decisively so.



Palestine is pretty much a doomed state, and the rockets are their last desperate gasp of breath. They can either go down fighting, or just roll over and surrender.

7/18/2014 4:04:48 PM

Take a good look. That'll be Arizona and Texas before long, With us being the yellow.

7/18/2014 7:49:33 PM

all the arab nations should just give 1967 another go.

of course obama wont do anything, so here is their chance to reverse that humiliation.

bunch of sore fucking losers.

7/19/2014 1:01:25 AM

Once isis wins the war they will prolly shoft focus to palestine

7/19/2014 2:32:24 AM

ISIS should just assimilate the region like a big Muslim Borg and then invade Jewland.

Show those ridiculous Zionists who's boss.

7/19/2014 11:33:44 AM

That saudi financing is the only thimg in thw region that could actually contend with israel.

7/19/2014 5:26:12 PM

Protests against Israel have started now in multiple cities across the world

7/19/2014 6:45:00 PM

So what?

You think hating Jews is a new thing?

Not widespread?

You should start one in "downtown Raleigh" using your commentary here.

[Edited on July 19, 2014 at 6:51 PM. Reason : im sure it will go over well]

7/19/2014 6:48:54 PM

Hating Jews? Troll.

7/19/2014 9:05:02 PM

A rocket is launched at your country's largest population centers. What is your "proportionate" response?

Now multiply that by the almost 800 rockets launched just into the last week.

7/19/2014 9:23:07 PM

A different perspective for those of you only focusing on death counts: http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/179601/looking-beyond-the-numbers-in-gaza

Quote :

"As of today, Israel has conducted 1,653 strikes into Gaza in response to Hamas’s 1,241 rockets launched from Gaza, which have killed one Israeli civilian. The Palestinian death toll now stands at 214. That means that for every 8 strikes carried out by Israel, one Gazan dies—a number which includes combatants. Unlike simplistic pronouncements that the death toll is “utterly disproportionate,” a more careful examination of the surrounding data—beyond futile comparisons of Palestinian and Israeli deaths—forces the conclusion, argued by William Saletan at Slate, that “either Israel is failing miserably to kill people or, more plausibly, it’s largely trying not to kill them.” Given that Israel has eliminated roughly 60 percent of Hamas rocket production sites and an estimated 40-45 percent of Hamas’s 10,000 rockets during Operation Protective Edge, Israel has accomplished a major military objective at the expense of minimal innocent lives."

7/19/2014 11:03:04 PM

Quote :

"A different perspective for those of you only focusing on death counts:"

Christ, you're embarrassing. People focus on the death count of civilians in wars for a reason.


You're shifting the focus to "rockets" fired precisely because it obfuscates the lopsidedness of the situation.


You wanna compare apples to apples? Then compare these numbers and get back to us:

Israeli civilians killed vs. Palestinian civilians killed.

Israeli civilians injured vs. Palestinian civilians injured.

Israeli property damaged vs. Palestinian property damaged.



One side is throwing stones, and the other side is hurling boulders. To compare the two numbers is intentionally deceptive and it's impossible that you could be so stupid as to not see that.

7/20/2014 6:14:07 AM

Israel is just defending itself guys!

How delusional do you have to be to support Israel at this point? What's happening is an atrocity.

7/20/2014 11:14:59 AM

If your neighbor across the street was spraying AK-47 fire at you and all the homes around you, would launching a rocket propelled grenade at his home where you might damage your next door neighbors be ok? Or should you venture out with your shotgun and see if you can get close enough to get him and only him?

7/20/2014 11:33:32 AM

Quote :

"If your neighbor across the street was spraying AK-47 fire at you and all the homes around you, would launching a rocket propelled grenade at his home where you might damage your next door neighbors be ok?"

No, I don't think it would be okay, but let's make sure we're using the right level of hyperbole.

If the neighbor was spraying you with an AK, would launching a missile back in their direction, taking out an entire apartment complex of men, women, and children on the off chance that your enemy might be in or around that area, be okay?

7/20/2014 12:05:38 PM

if hamas rockets are so shitty then the only reason to shoot them is provocation

mission accomplished

7/20/2014 12:24:36 PM

bdmazur,

Can you admit that if your goal is to stop rocket attacks and tunnels, then this campaign will not be effective at reaching this goal? If not, why did the 2008-2009 campaign not work but this one will?

7/20/2014 2:15:28 PM

I wonder if Israel would go for cutting out a chunk of land for the palestinians that would be independently governed with the condition that it be spelled Palestein.

7/21/2014 8:40:06 AM

Israel is using flechette shells again in areas with civilians

7/21/2014 8:42:11 AM

I wonder if Israel will settle for anything less than total annihilation at this point.

Whenever they bring an Israeli spokesperson on CNN/FOX/ABC all they basically say is that Hamas needs to be eradicated. What they (and the news anchors) don't discuss is that once Hamas is gone and they continue the occupation/sanctions/martial law and the Palestinians are basically still being oppressed, that'll give rise to a "new Hamas". Israel's stated goal is to shut down Hamas, stop their rocket fire and tunnels, but judging by their indiscriminate use of force I'm not convinced that is their actual goal.

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 10:27 AM. Reason : ]

7/21/2014 10:20:59 AM

I understand that the rockets that Hamas is firing at Israel aren't very powerful, and that Israel's rockets missiles are. So why the hell does Hamas keep firing them off? They obviously know all they're doing is inviting misery and destruction. Don't talk the talk unless you can walk the walk.

7/21/2014 10:21:27 AM

Quote :

" So why the hell does Hamas keep firing them off? "

it's the only way they can win, its similar to how the civil rights movements intentionally instigated violence so that their message would be heard. the movement left cities that were peaceful towards their protests, when sheriffs understood their goals and told their deputies not to react violently the media didn't cover the protest so they left for other cities.

Hamas wants Israel to overreact so that the world will hear their message and see their plight, it's just another reason why it's not in Israel's interest to respond disproportionately.

7/21/2014 10:26:47 AM

Quote :

"Don't talk the talk unless you can walk the walk."

I don't understand what this means. Are you just saying that they should accept occupation and give-up their land anytime israel "asks"? Because they don't have many other options about how to say "no".

7/21/2014 10:41:29 AM

^^^ imagine if Russians were "placed" in the US by the UN and they took away your land and forced you to live in a settlement across town while a bunch of Russians partied in your house every night. you know you'd be all like "MURICA" and fire rockets at them, even if you knew it were in vain.

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 10:54 AM. Reason : ]

7/21/2014 10:47:11 AM

http://youtu.be/sBakqLUBWP0

Quote :

"Published on Jul 21, 2014 20/7/14: International and Palestinian volunteers accompanied Civil Defense and other rescue crews, as well as family members, into Shujaya, in an attempt to locate survivors of overnight and ongoing shelling by the Israeli army. A young Palestinian man, in a green t-shirt, who hoped to reach his family's home, was shot by an Israeli soldier while crossing an alley between buildings. Two additional rounds struck him as he lay injured on the ground."

Gaza hospital hit in fatal Israeli attack – live updates
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/gaza-crisis-unsc-and-obama-call-for-immediate-ceasefire-live-updates

7/21/2014 11:34:33 AM