Tom O'Brien's entire credibility rides on whether or not he fires Archer after this season

11/23/2009 2:11:18 AM

fire everyone

11/23/2009 2:31:03 AM

I hate to bag on O'Brien too much, but Archer is his fault and it's his responsibility to fire that idiot.

Also a few weeks ago on SFN, they posted some W-L stats on Tom O'Brien that were pretty horrible when you looked at his career record versus teams that finished above .500 for that season and extremely horrible against teams that finished in the top-25 in the season he played them. Stuff like that and this season makes me wonder if he can do the job here.

11/23/2009 8:08:34 AM

dana bible with leukemia

ftl

11/23/2009 10:56:55 PM

Archer isn't an idiot. I find it hard to bag a guy too hard considering that he has FOUR upperclassmen playing at LB and the secondary. Two of them are walk-ons (Bobby Floyd, Clem Johnson), and other two (Michel, Morgan) have been targeted by opposing coordinators as weak links (per postgame comments).

11/24/2009 8:39:23 AM

Clem Johnson is not a walk-on.

The other former walk-on is Koyal George.

11/24/2009 8:54:05 AM

^^ Okay if he is not an idiot, give me a word to describe why he keeps allowing our corners to stay 8-10 yards off a receiver on 3 and short downs? There is no way the players are all in a secret agreement to continue to get burned on slants and short passes like it is their birth right. Clearly Arch-owned is not calling the correct defenses to help us win.

He and TOB seem more interested in getting their system installed than winning games. Fuck that. Your job is to win games.

11/24/2009 9:20:10 AM

we are shitty

we need a new defensive coordinator

however, that being said, if instead of giving our vaunted 7 yard cushion we pressed the receivers, we'd still be getting burnt to a crisp. there really is no winning scenario here.

11/24/2009 9:22:00 AM

^ Probably, but at least by pressing the receivers, you give Willie Young a shot at sack if the Qb has to wait for the WR to get past the DB. Playing 7 yards off allows the D-line no shot at getting pressure.

11/24/2009 9:29:57 AM

^^I keep hearing that argument and I'm gonna call bullshit, or at least, how the fuck would we even know that since we have never tried it under archer? One thing we do know is that our current defensive scheme results in about 40 points per game against us, so it damn sure couldn't be any worse.

11/24/2009 10:01:12 AM

^i would agree but, if nothing else, i think we have a smart football staff. do we actually think that they haven't thought about this?

O'Brien has always been a pro style guy on offense (as has Bible) and when they got here they completely changed the offense to fit Wilson's strengths.

I have to think they would do the same thing on defense if they truly thought it was a better option. I don't think we are so committed to a certain system that we won't change just because we are stubborn.

I am clueless honestly on what needs to be done but I know that we ran this scheme our first two years under O'Brien and our defenses were much better. Not sure what has changed so drastically this year but it wasn't this bad in years one and two.

11/24/2009 10:07:32 AM

I know it probably isn't the case but it sure feels like 3rd down is our opponent's best down.

3rd and 2 - you're going to convert
3rd and 8 - you're going to convert
Heck I've even seen series where the opponent's offense has racked up enough penalties to have it 3rd and 15+ and they still convert with relative ease.

Do they keep track of opponent 3rd down conversion percentage? I wonder how we rank?

And yeah, it's all because of that cushion we give them.

Many people had the exact same complaints last year. When comparing previous year's defenses with this year's, yes the defense in previous years was better. That doesn't mean it was ever a good defense. I guess you can chalk it up to terrible defensive scheme vs terrible defensive scheme using second string players.

[Edited on November 24, 2009 at 10:16 AM. Reason : -]

11/24/2009 10:12:08 AM

you might be right that our D wasn't "good" but it was better.

And if I am TOB I say, we are improving in this system that I believe in; there is no reason to drastically change it heading into the third year. I am gonna think that we are going to continue to improve in what these kids have now been running for two years.

Like I said, I would love to see what would happen if we pressed, played all man (or mostly man), and blitzed like crazy. However, I would also love to have TOB on here to explain why they do what they do and to answer our questions.

11/24/2009 10:20:05 AM

yeah, the system was the same and people had complaints last year

but the difference is, last year we were making the turnovers that this system supposedly was installed to produce. without nate or experienced secondary, we've seen that drop dramatically.

without any turnovers, this system is shitty indeed. i truly hope we change it, but if we don't, maybe next year we'll be better at executing it.

i just don't know or care anymore.

11/24/2009 10:20:20 AM

Quote :

"if instead of giving our vaunted 7 yard cushion we pressed the receivers, we'd still be getting burnt to a crisp. there really is no winning scenario here."

See, I think this is bullshit. Not because you're absolutely wrong -- you could very well be right. It's just that we've never even tried it, so how could we even know?

I started at CB all throughout high school. If you were to give me a choice whether to sit back in soft zone or get in a WR's face, I'd choose the latter every time. Playing aggresively eliminates the thinking and just lets you play football ("Your job: don't let this guy catch the ball. If he blocks you, shed him and go make the tackle").

I also get tired of reading that our secondary is slow, unathletic, etc. Go back and check the 40 times from earlier this year. Most of these guys can fly. I know for a fact Earl Wolff and DeAndre Morgan run in the 4.3 range, and the other guys are right behind them. We look like we're slow as shit because our defense forces you to overthink everything and forbids you to play fast.

[Edited on November 24, 2009 at 10:30 AM. Reason : ]

11/24/2009 10:26:18 AM

No, our defense has been shitacular since Archer has been here. The difference is that we haven't had Nate Irving covering his ass every game this year.

11/24/2009 10:30:15 AM

^.

11/24/2009 10:52:46 AM

Quote :

"We look like we're slow as shit because our defense forces you to overthink everything and forbids you to play fast."

but do you know for a fact this is true? It could very well be bullshit, or completely right, too.

Earl Wolff and company are still going through their first season of getting game experience.

I'm not trying to argue to keep Archer or anything, but maybe we really do need our players to execute better. But then again, it is the coaches job to get the most out of their players, and if this scheme is too complicated for our current set, then change it.

i just hope to god that Wendell Murphy loads Wilson to the brim with cash so he comes back, Baker comes back, we have an offensive line with more experience + Rob Crisp....but still, if we can't stop anyone, whats the fucking point.

11/24/2009 11:46:44 AM

I too get perplexed by the 8-10 yrd cushions but then i think. Do we actually have shutdown corners? NO. I think Rashard Smith and Jarvis Byrd will become that, but not as freshman.

So if we played bump and run, i just see bigger plays. Look what happens when alot of teams play bump and run on Spencer, he's a TD waiting to happen (if he catches it).

Thus we're left with Zone D. Problem there is we have young guys who aren't instinctually all the way there yet and our veteran back 7 on D are poor tacklers. It's simple guys.

I wouldn't cry or anything if Archer was let go, but in all fairness, it's a little hard to pin it all on him.

11/24/2009 11:51:04 AM

Quote :

"but still, if we can't stop anyone, whats the fucking point."

This is exactly why I don't get excited when our offense scores anymore. It's depressing...

[Edited on November 24, 2009 at 11:59 AM. Reason : ]

11/24/2009 11:56:33 AM

o'brien has had to stand by archer during the season. if the offseason comes and tob fires archer, he earns all his credibility back. if he continues to support him, then fuck him.

not counting year 1 because our offense was still shitty, consider the games the defense has lost for us in the last two years:

maryland last year
bc last year
florida state last year
duke this year
wake this year (arguably)
florida state this year
clemson this year (arguably)

and in most cases, the loss resulted from archer's trademarks: giving up third and huge, letting the opposing team drive down the field and score leaving the offense with the least amount of time possible to come back, the opposing team's offense only stalls when they fuck up (dropped pass, stupid int, stupid fumble).

11/24/2009 12:09:17 PM

The TOB/Archer connection reminds me a little of how Fox/Trgo operated, with the DC being the HC's puppet.

Archer has no past successful experience that even remotely qualifies him for DC duties at the D-1 level but he runs TOB's style of defense and is a buddy from the past. Serious head-scratcher of a hire when you look at track record however.

I think we're gonna be disappointed this offseason.

11/24/2009 12:15:43 PM

me too. o'brien will continue to blame the shitty d on the ridiculous number of injured starters and we'll sacrifice another season of awesome offense for shitty d. then by the time o'brien learns the error of his ways and the d gets fixed, we've got a green qb, unproven rb's and a bunch of young receivers.

[Edited on November 24, 2009 at 12:22 PM. Reason : only hope will be in the o-line, which should be immovable by then]

11/24/2009 12:20:55 PM

Our defensive schemes are stupid. We don't even try to disguise them which I think is a big part of the problem. Everybody in the stands knows we're playing a soft zone when we play 10 yards off the receivers.

Everybody knows when we're blitzing before the snap because we move the entire box up to the line and flinch like hell. It's just been way too easy to beat our defense.

[Edited on November 24, 2009 at 7:40 PM. Reason : .]

11/24/2009 7:39:41 PM

WE'RE AVERAGING 30 POINTS GIVEN A GAME

PER FUCKING GAME

THAT IS OVER FOUR TOUCHDOWNS PEOPLE

CLEARLY SOMETHING IS FUCKED UP

11/25/2009 6:35:11 AM

same old shit eh?

11/25/2009 7:48:28 AM

^ Yes, something IS fucked up, and it's the complete lack of upperclassmen on defense. So before you guys got nuts calling for Archer to be fired, take a look at what he's got to work with from his predecessor, the great recruiter Chuck Amato:

2005 & 2006 Recruiting Classes: LBs, Safeties, CBs

LBs:
Nate Irving (2*)
John Ware (left program)
Ray Michel (2*)
Avery Vogt (left program)

Analysis - TOB got TWO freakin' scholarship LBs to fill 3 positions from Amato's last two classes. Gee thanks.

Secondary ( S, CB):
Javon Walker (2*)
DeAndre Morgan (3*)

Walk-ons:
Bobby Floyd (walk-on)
Robert Bell
Asante Cureton
Zach Powell
Koyal George

Also, my thanks to the guy that pointed out that Clem Johnson is not a walk-on. He's a JUCO transfer... that TOB (not Amato) recruited and signed in spring 2008.

Analysis - Abysmal. The Pack has FIVE walk-on DBs on the roster, and for good reason. Only TWO scholarship players over 2 years to fill four positions will do that.

11/25/2009 7:59:05 AM

Not that it matters at all, but didn't we lose two DBs before the season started? At least one who just quit? I've already forgotten.

11/25/2009 9:00:18 AM

^^ that's all well and good, but archer's defenses at kentucky were garbage as well. fair or not people are going to be far more patient with o'brien based on his previous success than they are with archer given his previous lack thereof.

11/25/2009 9:12:37 AM

definitely Amato's fault when people leave the program............................................... definitely.

11/25/2009 9:18:22 AM

the personell excuse won't work when everyone can see the same shitty scheme on the field every week. Its moot.

11/25/2009 9:23:33 AM

^exactly

Who cares if our supposedly unathletic and terrible secondary gets burnt for big plays in bump and run coverage with a heavy dose of blitzing? They are already getting burnt, so worst case scenario, nothing changes.

11/25/2009 9:29:03 AM

^^Exactly

Does anyone remember what Thad Lewis said after our game against Duke (remember, the one where Duke scored 49 points on us ... DUKE). He said, paraphrasing, that playing against our defense was like "practicing." He said that we ran the same rinky dink zone every play. He said he knew exactly where our DB's were going to be every play because we never changed anything up.

The result -- an passing day for the ages by Lewis and an NC State ass kicking


[Edited on November 25, 2009 at 11:06 AM. Reason : ]

11/25/2009 10:49:45 AM

just getting this thread warmed up and ready

11/28/2009 11:07:31 AM

TOB sucks balls at time management. Jesus, another final half time drive wasted.

11/28/2009 1:34:36 PM

how can you be that incompetent at clock management time after time after time.

11/28/2009 1:35:08 PM

hey i got a pic of carter finley from my cell phone....

11/28/2009 1:39:39 PM

BC gets a good laugh at our expense every fucking week. What a joke this loser is.

11/28/2009 2:13:03 PM

its way too early to decide that

11/28/2009 2:24:49 PM

FUCK IT, IF WE WIN, GIVE HIM FIVE MORE YEARS!!! LOL!!!

11/28/2009 2:36:16 PM

FUCK IT, IF WE WIN, RIP HIM TO SHREDS ANYWAY!!! LOL!!!

11/28/2009 2:38:36 PM

Credible against UNC, at the very least.

11/28/2009 3:19:48 PM

Consistently beating your top rival... now thats job protection

11/28/2009 3:45:34 PM

radio making a good observation that swepson adjusted well in the second. they were rushing QB hard so we started throwing quickly to the flats.

I'm not sure I've seen us work the flats that well earlier in the year. we got into trouble a lot always trying to hit longer routes instead of easy dump offs of short passes

11/28/2009 3:48:46 PM

yea kudos for the adjustment

cause what we started out with was not working at all

11/28/2009 3:56:50 PM

11/28/2009 4:00:51 PM

well starting yesterday there were 3 things that TOB needed to happen for me to shut up (not that he cares) until next year

1. Win vs. UNC - check
2. Archer fired
3. Have Wilson come back (not really under his control)

I also was impressed with Swepson. He ran a lot of misdirection when UNC was selling out early and having everyone pursue to the ball rather than contain. And he ran enough to keep the defense honest, but not too much considering that we have Wilson. Good choice in back up OC.

11/28/2009 4:10:29 PM

^I agree with that checklist. I'll be listening to the press conferences for updates to the status of the other two.

11/28/2009 4:18:26 PM

still credible

11/28/2009 4:31:12 PM

Our DL was bad this year and it was composed of all srs....just think what it will give up next year when we got the youngest DL in the nation (UNC will have the second youngest!).

[Edited on November 28, 2009 at 5:31 PM. Reason : w]

11/28/2009 5:30:52 PM