Quote :

"i've got nothing against transgender people in general, but bruce/caitlin is an obvious attention-whore."

kind of odd for an attention whore to stay in the closet for 60+ years

7/16/2015 2:15:42 PM

come on man, he's let cameras follow him around for a reality show for 7+ years... and now he's got a contract for another reality show.

7/16/2015 2:18:59 PM

considering republicans won't do dick to protect LGBT people from bullying and harassment, I'm fine with ESPN trying to do something.

7/16/2015 2:19:38 PM

ESPN is trying to line their wallets. That is all.

7/16/2015 2:26:51 PM

If the Caitlyn debacle has taught me anything, its that people on the right are just as big of pussies as the left. While the left has no backbone, the right seems to get their panties in a wad about damn near everything.

7/16/2015 2:28:12 PM

Quote :

"come on man, he's let cameras follow him around for a reality show for 7+ years... and now he's got a contract for another reality show."

so you think that this is all an act for a tv show and that he doesn't sincerely feel this way?

7/16/2015 2:32:01 PM

no, i don't think it's all an act. i think he feels this way. but i also think he has some issues and craves attention. that's all.

7/16/2015 2:35:06 PM

Pretty sure if you're on a long running reality TV show, by definition, you're an attention whore

You're arguing that he's not?

7/16/2015 2:35:39 PM

is everybody on tv an attention whore?

it's not like he was the focus of the show he was on, and I doubt he was the one who had the idea to have cameras follow his family around

7/16/2015 2:37:54 PM

Bruce is a vain, narcissistic, attention-craving man. He is obsessed with his own appearance, and obsessed with himself.

With the current political climate of social media essentially being a feel-good liberal echo-chamber (agree or else you're a bigot), coming out as trans wasn't really that courageous either... he's still being worshiped for it though. Who knows, maybe he will stop painting his nails (thats what womanhood is right?) to actually do something to help transgendered kids instead of just saying "bullying is bad!".

The main argument is that Lauren Hill should have received the award for raising money to fight cancer before she died. I think it would have been really awesome if Bruce had deferred the award to her. Again, its all about ratings though at this point.

7/16/2015 3:12:35 PM

(Lauren Hill did win an award)

7/16/2015 3:13:54 PM

Quote :

"(Lauren Hill did win an award)"

Quote :

" maybe he will stop painting his nails (thats what womanhood is right?) to actually do something to help transgendered kids"

First of all, it's "she"
And by showing nothing but intolerance and a lack of respect for someone is pretty much the definition of bigotry, so congrats on achieving that label.

And she is a very high profile athlete and celebrity, her open transformation has done more for the transgender community than most. This is especially true as an athlete, where gender is more important for career success than almost any other field.

7/16/2015 3:44:08 PM

Quote :

"First of all, it's "she""

Bruce has one Y and one X chromosome, he is a man with an unfortunate mental disorder.

Quote :

"And by showing nothing but intolerance and a lack of respect for someone is pretty much the definition of bigotry, so congrats on achieving that label."

The definition of bigotry: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

My lack of respect for Jenner has nothing to do with his transgender disorder.

Bigotry is a two-way street. The difference is I just state medical facts, and you just get angry and yell "bigot".

7/16/2015 4:35:35 PM

Except its not intolerant of me to consider you a bigot for the views you espouse. I can tolerate you without agreeing with you. Its not like I'm trying to denying you basic rights because you lack simple understanding.

I can call you a small minded asshole, but that doesn't make me a bigot because, afterall, you chose to be be stupid, you weren't born that way.

Denying someone's gender and calling it a mental disorder despite the medical and science community landing firmly on the she-is-a-she side, makes you a bigot.

7/16/2015 4:58:49 PM

"She" can identify as a woman, but "she" is still biologically a man.

7/16/2015 5:01:06 PM

Gender is not a function of biology. Its also not a matter of opinion. Enough research has been done in the last half century to know that you can be born a particular sex, but identify as the opposite gender.

You can bury your head in the sand about these issues as much as you want, that doesn't change the fact that Caitlyn Jenner, and all other transgender people, are the gender's they claim to be.

Also, the fact that so many people don't understand these issues, or tolerate her transition and accept her as a woman, is why she's being held in such high regard.

7/16/2015 5:11:00 PM

it's really not that difficult to call someone what they prefer to be called

and it makes you that much more of an asshole if you ignore a pretty simple request

7/16/2015 5:17:17 PM

From this post on, I prefer that people call me President of the United States. You can call me POTUS for short. It's not really that difficult to call me what I prefer to be called. And it will make you that much more of an asshole if you ignore my pretty simple request.

If you call me POTUS though, does that make me president?

7/16/2015 5:27:38 PM

cool analogy that is in no way purposely obtuse

7/16/2015 5:29:24 PM

If I was friends with Caitlyn, it'd take some getting used to, but I'd call him a "she".

But Evander Holyfield wouldn't

Quote :

"But afterwards, former heavyweight champion Evander Holyfield said: "I just know that's Bruce Jenner and I'll leave it at that.""

7/16/2015 5:30:13 PM

Quote :

"Except its not intolerant of me to consider you a bigot for the views you espouse. I can tolerate you without agreeing with you. Its not like I'm trying to denying you basic rights because you lack simple understanding. I can call you a small minded asshole, but that doesn't make me a bigot because, afterall, you chose to be be stupid, you weren't born that way. Denying someone's gender and calling it a mental disorder despite the medical and science community landing firmly on the she-is-a-she side, makes you a bigot."

Name calling after all I did was state Bruce Jenner has XY Chromosomes? Am I a bigot, or is reality a bigot?

Being a male but identifying as a female is a disorder, undergoing sexual reassignment surgery is promoting and collaborating with the disorder, trying to achieve something that is impossible. Expecting others to play along with this fantasy, then accusing them of bigotry if they don't, is the definition of bigotry.

7/16/2015 6:07:32 PM

People ITT and across the country are being called bigots because they think it is unnatural for someone to go against what society has taught them is right from day 1. It is people like tgl who are intolerant here. At least the people calling Bruce out for what he really is (a male) have the excuse of years of social conditioning.

Tell me that sex doesn't equal gender all day long. That still doesn't change the fact that from the instant the doctor sees the ultrasound, we're expected to act based on the parts we've been given. That's life in a binary gender society. And to think it's weird that someone goes against that, then to call those people bigots? Come the fuck on people. You need more problems in your life. Apparently you don't have enough, so you're championing the problems of others.

7/16/2015 6:15:53 PM

how many times do you have to be told that being intolerant of intolerance doesn't make one intolerant?

7/16/2015 6:18:33 PM

How many times do you have to be told that people who think that this shit is weird are not being intolerant. That is the flaw in your argument.

7/16/2015 6:19:36 PM

using your logic, me thinking that blatant racists are huge pieces of shit makes me intolerant

and there's a pretty big difference in not being familiar with something and calling that something a disorder that isn't a disorder, among everything else that's been going on in this thread

[Edited on July 16, 2015 at 6:22 PM. Reason : .]

7/16/2015 6:21:32 PM

I wonder if Caitlyn like penis in his butt know or if he identifies as a woman but still likes women?

7/16/2015 6:30:59 PM

Man we're so far beyond hurtling infantile ideas like that in this thread.

7/16/2015 6:46:30 PM

Evander Holyfield did something relevant in sports a lot more recently than Bruce did. What Caitlyn did? Politically correct crowd, do we treat Bruce as always having been Caitlyn, even when he was winning gold medals before all of us were born? Or was that a different gendered person's accomplishments?

7/16/2015 6:46:36 PM

Dennis Rodman understands femininity better than Caitlyn Jenner.

7/16/2015 7:05:48 PM

The thing about bigotry is that no one considers themselves a bigot. You don't get to be the one to decide you're a bigot, everyone else gets to because of the things you say.

Its the same with racism. I've never met anyone who would claim to be a racist, and if they were called a racist would defend themselves vigorously. It doesn't matter that they pepper their discussion with the n-word or oppose interracial dating, they do that because that's what they've always known, and what their family does.

The logic so far has been that those who call Caitlyn "she" are bigots because we are intolerant of those who refuse to acknowledge transgender people as their identified gender. It takes some real mental gymnastics to pull that off, kudos.

The science on this is on the she-side. Doctors, scientists and phyciatrists all agree to that after decades of research. You can deny it all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that she is a she.

Arguing the point at this day and age is akin to denying climate change or evolution. Sure you have the right to say that, and maybe your preacher or parents told you how to think, but that doesn't make it right.

7/16/2015 7:15:12 PM

It isn't mental gymnastics. Its the left denying that a large majority of the populace associate having a penis with the male gender, and for them, it is weird for someone to think otherwise. You can't call these people bigots because they were raised by society in a certain way.

You can't compare this line of thinking to racism, because there really isn't a biological aspect to racism.

7/16/2015 7:21:32 PM

Its not a belief system though, just because you were raised in a household that assigns man/woman to genitalia doesn't change the fact that gender isn't the same as biological sex.

And how is race not a biological factor?

[Edited on July 16, 2015 at 7:37 PM. Reason : ]

7/16/2015 7:37:05 PM

Quote :

"The logic so far has been that those who call Caitlyn "she" are bigots because we are intolerant of those who refuse to acknowledge transgender people as their identified gender. It takes some real mental gymnastics to pull that off, kudos. "

I got a good chuckle during the episode of south park when Randy self-identified as a dolphin and got flipper re-assignment surgery.

7/16/2015 7:44:03 PM

Quote :

"Its the left denying that a large majority of the populace associate having a penis with the male gender, and for them, it is weird for someone to think otherwise."

pretty sure nobody on any side has denied that

7/16/2015 7:47:00 PM

Are y'all done?

7/16/2015 8:02:27 PM

Quote :

"The logic so far has been that those who call Caitlyn "she" are bigots because we are intolerant of those who refuse to acknowledge transgender people as their identified gender. It takes some real mental gymnastics to pull that off, kudos"

No, my beef with it is that there's one class of mental disorder (gender dysphoria) that we consider "legitimate" and must celebrate but other body dysphorias are considered invalid. We don't go around publicly reinforcing the cat man's (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/25/35580398_529e12c2e9_z.jpg?zz=1) belief that he identifies as a cat but as soon as a dude gives himself tits and cuts off his dick "OH YOU'RE TOTALLY A WOMAN NOW IN EVERY WAY". They both have equally valid mental disorders that have shaped their self-perception but we kid ourselves and go along with one but not the other.

And I do think you can be fine with someone doing the whole transgender thing while at the same time thinking "that's a dude who's totally butchered his body."

7/16/2015 8:33:24 PM

Quote :

"The thing about bigotry is that no one considers themselves a bigot. You don't get to be the one to decide you're a bigot, everyone else gets to because of the things you say."

If by "everyone" you mean the liberals, and by "things you say" you mean disagreeing with liberals. I know how the "bigotry" card works.

Quote :

"The science on this is on the she-side. Doctors, scientists and phyciatrists all agree to that after decades of research. You can deny it all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that she is a she. "

Biologically, Jenner's sex is male. Are you debating that, or are you going to call me a bigot for stating a fact?

I get that Jenner decided his gender is female now (years after fathering children), but when your gender is not aligned with your sex, that is a disorder. Not playing along with the fantasy of sex change does not mean we are intolerant. If anything, with the suicide rates of transexuals post-op, maybe there are other options to help them with their disorder.

7/16/2015 8:37:25 PM

Quote :

"No, my beef with it is that there's one class of mental disorder (gender dysphoria) that we consider "legitimate" and must celebrate but other body dysphorias are considered invalid. We don't go around publicly reinforcing the cat man's belief that he identifies as a cat but as soon as a dude gives himself tits and cuts off his dick "OH YOU'RE TOTALLY A WOMAN NOW IN EVERY WAY". They both have equally valid mental disorders that have shaped their self-perception but we kid ourselves and go along with one but not the other."

as was covered earlier in this thread, cats and humans aren't the same, so there is no comparison there, no matter how badly you wish there were

Quote :

"Biologically, Jenner's sex is male. Are you debating that, or are you going to call me a bigot for stating a fact? I get that Jenner decided his gender is female now (years after fathering children), but when your gender is not aligned with your sex, that is a disorder. Not playing along with the fantasy of sex change does not mean we are intolerant. If anything, with the suicide rates of transexuals post-op, maybe there are other options to help them with their disorder."

as has been pointed out many, many, many times, sex and gender are two different things. there are years and years of scientific research behind that. just because something makes you feel icky doesn't mean that your feelings trump years of medical research, carried out by professionals, and not random people on a message board.

as is the case with homosexuality, Jenner didn't "decide" that she is female now. she recently decided to live life openly as a female, which is what she has always identified as privately.

no matter how many times you close your eyes and plug your ears, science trumps whatever preconceived notions you have. you have the right to ostracize and continue to be loudly ignorant about it, just as we have the right to call you out for being an asshole.

those of us who are simply pointing out that another human, guilty of nothing, deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, are doing just that. science is on our side, and that tends to be a pretty good team to be on.

[Edited on July 16, 2015 at 9:15 PM. Reason : .]

7/16/2015 9:12:37 PM

I have no problem with people being gay, bi, lesbian, etc. I also understand that the rare few are born with sex ambiguity. For the majority of trans folks though I agree with:

Quote :

"I get that Jenner decided his gender is female now (years after fathering children), but when your gender is not aligned with your sex, that is a disorder. Not playing along with the fantasy of sex change does not mean we are intolerant. If anything, with the suicide rates of transexuals post-op, maybe there are other options to help them with their disorder. "

What about the cases (Rolling Stone did a whole article on one) where some boy (who just happened to have an older sister) claimed to identify as a girl starting at age 4/5. Should be let him/her go to the girls restroom even though they are biologically a boy. Should we permit this child to have gender reassignment surgery at the tender young age of 8 (which was what Rolling Stone was supporting) to allow him to pursue his dreams?

.

7/16/2015 9:53:48 PM

Quote :

"as has been pointed out many, many, many times, sex and gender are two different things. there are years and years of scientific research behind that. just because something makes you feel icky doesn't mean that your feelings trump years of medical research, carried out by professionals, and not random people on a message board."

You should at least read my post if you're going to quote it. You quoted me where I said "sex and gender are not aligned" and then proceed to explain the difference between sex and gender when I clearly understood the difference...

Quote :

"Jenner didn't "decide" that she is female now. she recently decided to live life openly as a female, which is what she has always identified as privately."

Did she identify as a female when she fathered children? What about the Transgenders that switch back? This isn't the same as homosexuality that you are born with, this is a legitimate mental disorder.

Quote :

"no matter how many times you close your eyes and plug your ears, science trumps whatever preconceived notions you have. "

I honestly don't understand this anti-science straw man argument. I said XY chromosomes is sex = male. How is that anti-science? I understand the difference between sex and gender, and my point is that if they are not aligned that is a disorder. I'm not plugging my ears like the gif you posted (funny though that is similar to the liberal method of yelling "Bigot" and "Ignorance" rather than addressing my points which I hope you got out of your system).

Quote :

"those of us who are simply pointing out that another human, guilty of nothing, deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, are doing just that. "

Is that ALL you're doing? Seems to me like you are accepting your opinion as fact and labeling anything else as bigotry.

For the record, just because I don't think a man with tits is a woman, it doesn't mean I don't respect Jenner, or that I hate Jenner, or that I don't wan't Jenner to be happy and live a good life.

Like I said earlier, the suicide rate of post-op transgender people is very high, some regret it, some even try and change back. Going through numerous surgeries to try and be something you physically and "scientifically" aren't must be awful. God forbid people think there may be other options to help these people, before we encourage them to go through surgeries and genital mutilation to try and be something they aren't. For what other mental disorders do we encourage, in vain, such drastic surgical measures to try and change reality?

I equate it to another disorder, Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where the sufferer feels as if they would be happier living as an amputee. For this disorder, the question is similar, surgically remove limbs for treatment, or pursue psychological treatment?

7/16/2015 11:30:14 PM

I noticed that everyone "defending" Jenner ITT is a man. Meanwhile women like Bridget, who has both the gender identification and biology of a woman (a real woman), says Caitlyn isn't really a woman.

I believe she posted a link to an article on a previous page that iirc was written by another woman (note: a female) that basically said just because you wear a dress and paint your nails, that doesn't make you a woman.

But I'm sure some male psychologist legitimizes this gender identification by publishing an article, so, he's every bit the woman that all your mothers are, right?

[Edited on July 17, 2015 at 12:00 AM. Reason : .]

7/16/2015 11:56:29 PM

^^pretty much nailed it.

7/17/2015 2:21:39 AM

nailed what?

calling something a "legitimate mental disorder" that's not classified as a mental disorder?

7/17/2015 9:27:25 AM

Is bulimia a mental disorder? What about anorexia?

People who suffer from those body image disorders...they do the same thing. In essence, they mutilate their body trying to achieve something they can't possibly achieve.

7/17/2015 9:35:41 AM

yes, those are both mental disorders

and no, transgenderism is not the same

7/17/2015 9:54:11 AM

Bruce looks in the mirror, sees a woman. He goes to bed at night, wishing he was a woman.

Anorexics look in the mirror, sees an overweight version of themselves. They go to bed at night wishing they were skinnier.

7/17/2015 10:07:15 AM

where'd you get your phd from again? I forget.

7/17/2015 10:21:05 AM

I told you, Stanford. Mentioned it a few pages ago. But that is all the response you've got?

Body image disorders are body image disorders. Slapping a term like "transgender" on one of them doesn't change that fact. Putting Bruce on a pedestal and praising this behavior is akin to giving a bulimic a bucket and some nexium and saying "have at it, we hope you reach your desired body image."

And besides, I gave you a ph.d who agreed with my point of view, and what did you do? Did your best to discount him. Why? because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Me: Bruce has a disorder, he needs help.
Lib: Bigot
Me: No really, he needs help. It's a disorder and you're encouraging harmful behavior.
Lib: Bigot. Show me your ph.d
Me: Stanford. But for more relevance, here's a guy who worked at Johns Hopkins who indicated that this behavior is a disorder.
Lib: Well, um, yea he's a bigot too.

And the guy from Johns Hopkins is just one. If I wanted to spend the time, I could find more ph.d's who agree. Since you're so caught up with having spent 8+ years in school for an opinion to matter.

[Edited on July 17, 2015 at 10:33 AM. Reason : asdfa]

7/17/2015 10:25:25 AM

no, it's not

your personal, uninformed opinion doesn't trump years of science and research, no matter how badly you wish it did

that applies to everything in science

7/17/2015 10:33:14 AM

Ok, I gave you someone with 50 years of training and experience, and you called him a bigot. Next.

7/17/2015 10:36:49 AM