^^ You're an interesting character.

When you get pressed into a corner, all the little pussy-liberal layers that top your onion come unraveled. You just admitted to a "better them then us" mentality. And you just suggested that Israel has to beat the shit out of Gaza in order to flex nuts in front of Iran.

All your feel good "peace" positions are really coming undone, here. I'd respect you more if you admitted to being a hawk, though, rather than hiding behind the veneer of progressive pacifist.

[Edited on July 21, 2014 at 8:54 PM. Reason : ]

7/21/2014 8:52:54 PM

^

7/21/2014 9:25:42 PM

Quote :

"improving the conditions in Palestine "

How the fuck do you do this with Hamas running the place, which you admit are basically mobsters? They will take what they need and give the scraps to civilians in return for favors. And I doubt they have much to give recently anyway. How are they in any way a positive presence? Because they're there instead of someone worse?

Quote :

"What kind of psychopathic monster is okay with killing hundreds when they know it won't make a difference? "

They think it'll garner sympathy, which will turn into pressure against Israel, and that's exactly what they're getting from some. Not from me, though.

7/21/2014 10:32:59 PM

Quote :

"Removing Hamas before improving the conditions in Palestine is the worst thing that could happen to both Palestine and Israel (and is bad for the middle east at large)"

False.

7/21/2014 10:33:35 PM

Better them than us? I was responding to a question about the mission to destroy rockets close the tunnels that are being used to smuggle weapons into Gaza and armed terrorists into Israeli towns and kibbutzim. 12 dead terrorists is better than 100 dead Israeli citizens for sure.

I'm upset that hundreds of Palestinian civilians have died in this conflict, it makes me hate the leadership on both sides. But the opinion here seems to be that it's ok for Hamas to continue to launch rockets and sneak into Israel with intent to kill entire communities, but it's wrong for Israel to do anything about it.

Quote :

"Because the status quo is the only other option? No."

So tell me what they're supposed to do. What plan can you come up with that involves complete disengagement but ensures Israel's safety and security (meaning Hamas won't keep coming after them)?

What's the proportional response? I keep asking and no one wants to give an answer.

7/22/2014 12:19:05 AM

There is nothing that can guarantee israel's security. Probably the best thing to do is to just wipe out all the Palestinians, but they still have to contend with their neighboring countries (but at least this would deter anyone from messing with them for a while).

Considering Israel has pretty much "won," the only way out of this for them, the only way to gain safety, is a political solution. They would likely have to "trust" Hamas not to keep firing rockets, from whatever agreement they hammer out.

7/22/2014 12:26:45 AM

Quote :

" But the opinion here seems to be that it's ok for Hamas to continue to launch rockets and sneak into Israel with intent to kill entire communities, but it's wrong for Israel to do anything about it."

No, man. The opinion here is that it is wrong to kill civilians. That's it. One side is doing a lot more of that than the other.

If the tables were turned, and Hamas was indiscriminately murdering hundreds of Israeli civilians and critically injuring thousands more with superior firepower and little restraint, then I'd be in here arguing with anyone who had to resort to hypothetical threats to legitimize the atrocity.

But that's not what's happening. It's Israel that is doing the most damage. But you're in here trying to rationalize it. And the worst party? You're using the same twisted logic that American hawks and neocons used to justify preemptively invading Iraq.

“Better to hit 'em over there then to let them get us here!"

7/22/2014 1:51:36 AM

Quote :

"If the tables were turned, and Hamas was indiscriminately murdering hundreds of Israeli civilians and critically injuring thousands more "

That's exactly what Hamas wants it to be. They've publicly outright said so. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean they haven't been trying. Just because they are bad at it shouldn't make it more ok for them to be doing what they're doing.

7/22/2014 2:11:56 AM

Quote :

"No, man. The opinion here is that it is wrong to kill civilians. That's it. One side is doing a lot more of that than the other. "

When civilians choose to be human shields to militarily significant targets are they really civilians at that point? An "innocent civilian" would be someone completely ignorant and inculpable of what Hamas is doing or being forced into doing it against their will. But no, these people are knowingly participating, aiding, and abetting the political organization that they elected to fight a guerrilla war against their neighbor. That's not a civilian.

I'm not going to feel bad for one side of an armed conflict just because their tactics aren't working. Would a lot less people die if Israel wasn't trying to blow up stockpiles of rockets? Sure. You know another way to keep a whole bunch of people from dying? Stop hiding rockets behind them. No one here is arguing it's bad to kill civilians, but pretending that the majority of those dying are truly innocent civilians is a joke.

7/22/2014 7:56:55 AM

Quote :

"Quote : "Removing Hamas before improving the conditions in Palestine is the worst thing that could happen to both Palestine and Israel (and is bad for the middle east at large)" False. "

True.

How many more examples do you need to see of what happens after a vacuum of power is formed? Hamas has a very tenuous relationship with Salafist jihadis, Hamas does not want to implement Sharia law and is open to negotiating with Israel and being a part of the PLO, this is not okay with Salafist ideologues. Salafist jihadis do not want to negotiate Israel, they are probably the factions responsible for firing rockets during agreed-upon cease fires because they think a cease fire with Israel is weakness. Hamas has been able to control threats from Salafist groups, but if Israel was actually able to destroy Hamas, the vacuum of power would allow hardliner ideologues to take power who would implement Sharia law in Gaza and these hardliners would not be open to any kind of negotiation with Israel, even through intermediaries.

Quote :

"When civilians choose to be human shields to militarily significant targets are they really civilians at that point? An "innocent civilian" would be someone completely ignorant and inculpable of what Hamas is doing or being forced into doing it against their will. But no, these people are knowingly participating, aiding, and abetting the political organization that they elected to fight a guerrilla war against their neighbor. That's not a civilian. "

a lot of civilians who are "choosing to be human shields" are simply not leaving the buildings they live because they have nowhere else to go. so... fuck 'em?

Quote :

"I'm not going to feel bad for one side of an armed conflict just because their tactics aren't working. "

their tactics are working fantastically, you just don't understand their tactical and strategic goals.

Quote :

"12 dead terrorists is better than 100 dead Israeli citizens for sure. "

and by extension, a few hundred dead Palestinian citizens is better than a couple dead Israelis, right?

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 8:35 AM. Reason : .]

7/22/2014 8:31:49 AM

Quote :

"When civilians choose to be human shields to militarily significant targets are they really civilians at that point? An "innocent civilian" would be someone completely ignorant and inculpable of what Hamas is doing or being forced into doing it against their will. But no, these people are knowingly participating, aiding, and abetting the political organization that they elected to fight a guerrilla war against their neighbor. That's not a civilian"

The Gaza Strip has around 1.7 million people people crammed into 150 square miles. It's one of the most densely populated areas in the world (For example, Israel has about 800 people per square mile. Gaza has around 10,000 people per square mile). And they're not allowed to leave. So where exactly are they supposed to go? Especially considering that the average Palestinian doesn't have enough money to move their family even if they had somewhere to go.

7/22/2014 9:25:58 AM

Quote :

"their tactics are working fantastically, you just don't understand their tactical and strategic goals"

If you're implying that their goals are to garner as much sympathy by getting their human shields killed I understand them perfectly, and I'm not going to participate in the faux outrage. Hamas is just as responsible for those people dying as Israel.

7/22/2014 10:22:10 AM

false.

7/22/2014 10:24:25 AM

Again, you seem to be ignoring some important facts. Are you saying that Palestinians should just shut-up and allow the occupation and land grabs? I'm not defending Hamas, as they do resort to terroristic actions, but what other options do they have to fight the occupation and the current treatment of the people of Gaza? Gaza is one of the most densely populated countries in the world, and it's only 150 square miles. Where exactly should they stage their military operations, if not in areas that are also inhabited by civilians? And where should those civilians go to avoid Israel's devastating air strikes?

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 10:35 AM. Reason : ]

7/22/2014 10:27:14 AM

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gunshots-fired-at-al-jazeera-bureau-gaza-2014722829152765.html

Quote :

"The attack came a day after Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman was quoted by local media as saying his country will work to close down Al Jazeera in Israel. Al Jazeera "has abandoned even the perception of being a reliable news organisation and broadcasts from Gaza and to the world anti-Israel incitement, lies, and encouragement to the terrorists," Lieberman said."

The footage of Israeli's cheering for the bombs landing on Gaza, those "lies", right? Going after Hamas is one thing, but going after the Press too? God forbid someone reports the Palestinian side of this "war".

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 10:39 AM. Reason : ]

7/22/2014 10:35:53 AM

you think that's going after the press? Israel literally fired into the Al Jazeera offices, they win the going after the press prize

Gunshots fired at Al Jazeera bureau in Gaza
Shots fired into Al Jazeera's office in Gaza, a day after Israeli FM said Israel will work to close down the network.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gunshots-fired-at-al-jazeera-bureau-gaza-2014722829152765.html

Quote :

""Two very precise shots were fired straight into our building", Al Jazeera’s Stefanie Dekker, reporting from the bureau in Gaza said. "We are high up in the building so we had a very strong vantage point over the area. But we have evacuated." The bureau is situated in a residential area of Gaza City. "Our office building also has many residential apartments. People [are] leaving, panicked. The AP [news agency] also has office there and [has] evacuated.""

also related: don't criticize Israel!
Journalist Who Accused MSNBC Of Pro-Israel Bias: I've Been Canceled!
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/rula-jebreal-israel-msnbc-canceled

Quote :

"While appearing on Monday's episode of "Ronan Farrow Daily," Jebreal said the channel's coverage of the conflict was too favorable toward Israel. She even singled out Andrea Mitchell, the NBC News foreign affairs correspondent and MSNBC host. "Look at how many airtime Netanyahu and his folks have on air on a daily basis. Andrea Mitchell and others," Jebreal said. "I never see one Palestinian being interviewed on theses same issues." Jebreal also used the appearance to address the ordeal of Ayman Mohyeldin, the NBC News correspondent who was mysteriously pulled off the network's coverage of the Israel-Hamas conflict last week. Many journalists, including Jebreal, believed the decision was politically motivated. "Listen, the Ayman Mohyeldin story, let's talk about this. We are home and we can discuss this. Ayman Mohyeldin is covering the Palestinian side and we get upset," Jebreal said. "It's too pro-Palestinian. We don't like it. We push him back and thanks for social media that brought him in.""

7/22/2014 10:43:12 AM

After a day of searching I can't find any first-hand reporting of the poster that bdmazur posted that is supposedly distributed all over Gaza. From what I can tell, the poster originated on an IDF blog and was reposted from their. For a poster that is reportedly all over Gaza, I can't find any first-hand accounts of it being in Gaza. Can anyone else?

After being posted by the IDF on their blog, it was spread aroung twitter and social media by organized Israelis at places like this:

Israeli propaganda war hits social media
http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government-it/israeli-propaganda-war-hits-social-media-20140717-ztvky.html?=

7/22/2014 10:46:04 AM

Quote :

"Are you saying that Palestinians should just shut-up and allow the occupation and land grabs?"

That IS an option, correct? It may not be a good one, but it does exist. Everyone seems to be acting like the Palestinians and Hamas has absolutely no other choice than to put "innocent civilians" in harms way so they can fight their guerrilla war against Israel.

Rather, the people of Gaza put Hamas in charge because they wanted to fight Israel. Well congratulations, you're getting what you wanted.

This is a game both sides want to play. Yeah, the Israleis are being a bunch of douchebags, and I could go on and on about everything that's wrong with Israel. But don't act like Hamas is all sad when a house or a mosque gets blown out of Gaza and a whole bunch of people die.

7/22/2014 11:02:48 AM

Your position is that every Palestinian is responsible for the action of Hamas (and that all rockets are by all of Hamas), and I think you are at least smart enough to see how retarded that is

7/22/2014 11:05:55 AM

So, let me play your game and say that theoretically, Hamas is wiped out. Shut down. No more "terrorists" for Israel to blame their actions on.

Israel continues its apartheid, embargos on supplies going into Gaza, martial law, and continues expanding its settlements by seizing Palestinian land.

The Palestinian people, who shouldn't have to bend over and take it from Israel, demand justice.

Hamas 2 is born. Rinse, repeat.

If Israel actually cared about terrorism and promoting peace, they would do something about their Occupation in the first place. Maybe give back land to the Palestinians as a show of good faith. But no, the course of action they are taking (war under the pretext of taking out Hamas) basically gives them secure expansion of its illegal territories. This war is complete and utter BS.

7/22/2014 11:13:20 AM

Quote :

"That IS an option, correct? It may not be a good one, but it does exist."

So you're saying that the Palestinians should do this? That oppressed people should stay oppressed and be happy about it? That fighting for fair treatment and equal rights should be frowned upon and justifiably met with an iron fist? Is this your position? That they should just do nothing, continue to be occupied, and just accept that they may be forcefully removed from their homes?

7/22/2014 11:18:21 AM

Quote :

"So, let me play your game and say that theoretically, Hamas is wiped out. Shut down. No more "terrorists" for Israel to blame their actions on."

If Hamas is wiped out then Salafists or another extreme group would take over. Unlike Hamas, these hardline ideologues would not negotiate with Israel and would implement sharia law. It wouldn't be Hamas 2.0, it would be much worse.

(This is why its important to start relaxing the apartheid state and providing aid to improve conditions while Hamas is still in place, otherwise it will be like every other middle eastern area after destabilization. There are moderate factions of Hamas who, as they have become political, have tempered their opinions toward Israel. Israel needs to show its serious by stopping new settlements and even pulling out of some occupied areas. It means that rockets will continue in the short term, and that's unfair, but its the only possible path to peace. )

7/22/2014 11:24:17 AM

Quote :

"But no, these people are knowingly participating, aiding, and abetting the political organization that they elected to fight a guerrilla war against their neighbor. That's not a civilian. "

Quote :

"Rather, the people of Gaza put Hamas in charge because they wanted to fight Israel. Well congratulations, you're getting what you wanted. "

-Sayer

Quote :

"They have said things to this effect, if not outright. They are no different from any other extremist Muslim group like ISIS or the Taliban, except in degree of extremism. As far as "innocent" civilians are concerned, most Palestinians support Hamas at least ideologically, if not monetarily, or militarily. "

-carzak

Quote :

"Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple... the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies... This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us. Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge."

-Osama bin Laden

you voted for them, so you are not innocent and we will kill you

7/22/2014 12:21:06 PM

a question for some, especially those who seem to suggest that the palestinians should do nothing. what if you were born an average palestinian? what would you do? would you stay silent and allow israel to oppress you? if your land was taken, your innocent family or friends were killed, would you remain silent? or would you become angry and choose to fight back. i'd have to believe most people would fight back.

7/22/2014 12:26:20 PM

Quote :

"So you're saying that the Palestinians should do this?"

No, I'm pointing out that there is more than one option than to fight a guerrilla war. There are also other options which no one seems to want to talk about. Or care about. Or both, it doesn't really matter.

Quote :

"Your position is that every Palestinian is responsible for the action of Hamas (and that all rockets are by all of Hamas), and I think you are at least smart enough to see how retarded that is"

Quote :

"you voted for them, so you are not innocent and we will kill you"

No, not at all. But some form of majority had to elect Hamas. And yes, at some basic level we are all responsible for the political bodies elected to represent us.

Quote :

"This is why its important to start relaxing the apartheid state and providing aid to improve conditions while Hamas is still in place, otherwise it will be like every other middle eastern area after destabilization. There are moderate factions of Hamas who, as they have become political, have tempered their opinions toward Israel. Israel needs to show its serious by stopping new settlements and even pulling out of some occupied areas. It means that rockets will continue in the short term, and that's unfair, but its the only possible path to peace."

I'd tend to agree about Israel needing to show its serious about peace, but the 2005 Isralei disengagement from Gaza didn't really produce reciprocal acts of good faith, and that was less than a decade ago. If anything, it gave rise to Hamas being in power, which is arguably a worse position for Israel. Additionally, a desire for peace needs to exist on both sides of the isle, and unless those 1500+ rockets fired into Israel over the last couple weeks were Palestinian Peace Rockets, I get the feeling that they don't really want peace either.

7/22/2014 1:16:18 PM

Quote :

"No, I'm pointing out that there is more than one option than to fight a guerrilla war. There are also other options which no one seems to want to talk about. Or care about. Or both, it doesn't really matter. "

Are you intentionally being vague? It seems their options are to fight back or accept being oppressed. And if they choose to fight, they have little to fight with. They don't have a military, they don't have sophisticated weaponry, they don't have areas to stage military operations.... so they have little options except guerrilla warfare.

Please be more specific about what you think their "options" are. And please explain what "option" you'd choose if you were put in that situation, keeping in mind the facts of the situation.

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 1:32 PM. Reason : ]

7/22/2014 1:19:23 PM

Quote :

" but the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza didn't really produce reciprocal acts of good faith,"

they stopped the second intifada and attacks fell dramatically and Palestine was dispatching police and shaking up their security forces to get rockets to stop. the remaining violence wasn't state-sponsored and Israel gave up on their disengagement a couple months later and resumed targeted killings. Not surprisingly, Hamas won a majority in the next election


[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 1:58 PM. Reason : Also, let's not ignore that Israel is only allowed to be so upset with election results that they in]

7/22/2014 1:56:45 PM

I'd argue that Arafat's death in November of 2004 was what really ended the 2nd Intifada, since he was the major cult of personality that drove the action in the first place. Without Abbas in power, there never would have been a summit at Sharm el-Sheikh.

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 2:17 PM. Reason : r]

7/22/2014 2:16:34 PM

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 2:26 PM. Reason : don't know why that didn't work]

7/22/2014 2:26:01 PM

Quote :

"Are you intentionally being vague? It seems their options are to fight back or accept being oppressed. Please be more specific about what you think their "options" are. And please explain what "option" you'd choose if you were put in that situation, keeping in mind the facts of the situation."

If I represented all Palestinians and had the authority to make decisions for them, I would have negotiated a few more favorable conditions out of the Camp David summit or the Taba summit and accepted a 2 State solution. I think Arafat was an idiot for not pushing for a deal.

I would have given up the wholesale Rights to Return in exchange for monetary compensation or reparations, and assistance in either relocating or resettling into the new Palestinian state. I would have pushed for joint custody of Jerusalem, and sovereignty over respective parts of the city. I would have pushed back against Israel's security concerns and worked with the international community to reach an acceptable compromise.

I don't really view this as being oppressed.

Is it as idealistic as a 1 State solution? No, but I don't honestly believe that will ever happen. Nor do I think the Palestinians have anything to gain at this point and have everything to lose. The Jews are here to stay. They're not going anywhere. Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLA, whatever group you want to champion, they aren't going to wipe the Zionists from Palestine. So I'd take as much as I can negotiate out of Israel, secure some peace for my people, and get on with life.

7/22/2014 3:23:13 PM

Thanks for the response, and that does sound like an ideal solution.

However, I'm askin what you would do now, if you were an average Palestinian in the middle of this. You're claiming that most of the civilians that are caught up in this aren't "innocent" because they're around targets and are aware of what Hamas is doing, and therefore their deaths are somewhat justified. So what would you do at this moment if you were an average Palestenian, today, right now? Would you stay silent and allow Israel to oppress you and take your land? Would you be angry about it? Would you continue to go about your daily business? Would you somehow round up your family and move it to a safe place away from any Hamas targets (and where would that be?) Would you oppose Hamas' defiance against Israel?

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 3:43 PM. Reason : ]

7/22/2014 3:36:02 PM

Just let the Swiss guards provide security, it worked when Jack Ryan proposed it

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 3:38 PM. Reason : although the dumb bitch national security advisor didn't let him get the credit]

7/22/2014 3:36:18 PM

Quote :

"If Hamas is wiped out then Salafists or another extreme group would take over. Unlike Hamas, these hardline ideologues would not negotiate with Israel and would implement sharia law. It wouldn't be Hamas 2.0, it would be much worse. "

First of all, why do you assume these Salafists would take over if they're the ones firing the missiles, going by what you said? Surely they are being killed by Israeli strikes as well, and would be targeted in a ground invasion?

Secondly, in a total Israeli occupation, there wouldn't really be a power vacuum; it would be martial law until they form a provisional government.

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 4:03 PM. Reason : did more research]

7/22/2014 3:58:49 PM

Quote :

"Would you stay silent and allow Israel to oppress you and take your land?"

I wouldn't stay silent, but if I was an "average" Palestinian there wouldn't be much I could do about Israel taking my land.

Quote :

"Would you be angry about it?"

Of course

Quote :

"Would you continue to go about your daily business?"

I'd try

Quote :

"Would you somehow round up your family and move it to a safe place away from any Hamas targets (and where would that be?)"

I wouldn't willingly sit on top of a target if that's what you're asking. I haven't seen anything anywhere that says the human shields camouflaging Hamas rocket supplies are doing so against their will, so I assume they do so out of free choice. Where would I go? Anywhere that's not on top of rockets Israel wants to blow up. I'm not an expert on Gazan Geography, but there has to be somewhere in the 141 square miles of Gaza that's not on top of rockets.

Quote :

"Would you oppose Hamas' defiance against Israel?"

Yes, but not openly. It's not accomplishing anything other than getting my Palestinian friends killed, so why would I support that. I'd support whatever political party is going to get the blockade lifted and the fences torn down; that'd be a nice change.

7/22/2014 4:00:46 PM

^^why do you not?

some background:

Hamas Finds Itself Aligned With Israel Over Extremist Groups
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/20/world/middleeast/hamas-works-to-suppress-militant-groups-in-gaza.html?_r=0

Salafis' rise in Gaza robs Hamas of resistance banner
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2012/1015/Salafis-rise-in-Gaza-robs-Hamas-of-resistance-banner

Hamas Claims Pursuit of Salafists in Gaza
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2012/September/Hamas-Claims-Pursuit-of-Salafists-in-Gaza/

Hamas reconciles with Gaza Salafists
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/11/hamas-salafist-gaza-reconciliation.html

etc...



[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 4:03 PM. Reason : (or just look at Syria or Iraq or Lybia after a power vacuum)]

Quote :

"Secondly, in a total Israeli occupation, there wouldn't really be a power vacuum; it would be martial law until they form a provisional government."

Oh, so peaceful like occupied Ireland? or peaceful like occupied Vietnam? Or Iraq? or Afghanistan? etc...
all that is doing is kicking the can down the road. until the form a provisional government? they've formed a provisional government, why would you expect the next one to be different? Hamas won the election because of Israel's actions, why do you think that a full on occupation would make people turn away from Hamas instead of embracing them even more?

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 4:09 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2014 4:03:05 PM

^^All those are good answers, but in my opinion, you're looking at it way too ideally. I don't think many of the innocent Palestenians that are being killed are purposely acting as human shields. I think it's pretty naive to think that.

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 4:05 PM. Reason : ]

7/22/2014 4:03:31 PM

Quote :

"I wouldn't willingly sit on top of a target if that's what you're asking."

this is what you are having trouble understanding (probably confused by the IDF propoganda that bdmazur posted). It's not a matter of moving in front of artillery or standing in front of tanks, its an issue of staying in your home because there is literally nowhere safe to go.

'No safe place for civilians' in Gaza, U.N. says
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/22/us-palestinians-israel-un-aid-idUSKBN0FR14820140722

Quote :

""There is literally no safe place for civilians," Jens Laerke, spokesman of the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), told a news briefing in Geneva."

7/22/2014 4:05:52 PM

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 4:11 PM. Reason : nvm after edit]

7/22/2014 4:10:11 PM

Quote :

"Oh, so peaceful like occupied Ireland? or peaceful like occupied Vietnam? Or Iraq? or Afghanistan? etc... all that is doing is kicking the can down the road. until the form a provisional government? they've formed a provisional government, why would you expect the next one to be different? Hamas won the election because of Israel's actions, why do you think that a full on occupation would make people turn away from Hamas instead of embracing them even more?"

a full on occupation would just embolden hardliners and create even more generations that will grow up to support those who violently oppose Israel

history


[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 4:12 PM. Reason : ^edited]

7/22/2014 4:10:44 PM

Quote :

"this is what you are having trouble understanding (probably confused by the IDF propoganda that bdmazur posted). It's not a matter of moving in front of artillery or standing in front of tanks, its an issue of staying in your home because there is literally nowhere safe to go."

Just because I don't agree with you or your position doesn't mean I don't understand the situation. Gaza is an active war zone; of course there is no "safe" place to go. But if offered the choice of hanging out on top of a bunch of missiles and rockets you know damn well Israel wants to blow up (and probably will) versus leaving and going anywhere else, what would you do? Do you think your chances for survival are higher sitting on the missiles or being anywhere else?

7/22/2014 4:14:02 PM

It must be pretty easy to ignore this atrocity when you automatically adopt these two bogus lines of thinking:

1. All of the deceased volunteered as human shields.
2. All of Gaza sits atop bombs and rockets.



Man, what a simple world you live in.

7/22/2014 4:16:00 PM

Quote :

"But if offered the choice of hanging out on top of a bunch of missiles and rockets you know damn well Israel wants to blow up (and probably will) versus leaving and going anywhere else, what would you do?"

okay, try to keep up

1. you really won't get much notice, here is the warning you get: they hit your building with a small mortar before blowing it up
http://youtu.be/doYmYby_7mk
(and we've seen plenty of well reported examples without any warnings at all)
2. its not hanging out on top of a bunch of missiles, its hiding in your home and suddenly its blown up or crossing the street when you are shot by a sniper or playing on the beach when a mortar targets you, etc...

^this

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 4:19 PM. Reason : ^]

7/22/2014 4:19:09 PM

Quote :

"It must be pretty easy to ignore this atrocity when you automatically adopt these two bogus lines of thinking: 1. All of the deceased volunteered as human shields. 2. All of Gaza sits atop bombs and rockets. Man, what a simple world you live in."

It must be pretty easy to buy into this being an atrocity when you automatically adopt these two bogus lines of thinking:

1. All of the deceased are completely innocent and had no idea what Hamas was doing
2. Israel is just trying to kill as many people as possible

Man, your world sounds as simple as mine.

7/22/2014 4:39:50 PM

Quote :

"Oh, so peaceful like occupied Ireland? or peaceful like occupied Vietnam? Or Iraq? or Afghanistan? etc... "

All of those have differences from Gaza/Palestine; Iraq and Afghanistan are much larger and more diverse, for example. I don't think hypotheticals and analogies are constructive here, unless it's more specific than "like Iraq?"

Quote :

"why do you think that a full on occupation would make people turn away from Hamas instead of embracing them even more?"

Because there wouldn't be a Hamas left.

Quote :

"they've formed a provisional government, why would you expect the next one to be different?"

Do they still have a provisional government? The PLC has not been able to convene since 2007. Regardless, the next one would be different because Israel would put it in place, with influence from moderate Palestinians.

Quote :

"a full on occupation would just embolden hardliners and create even more generations that will grow up to support those who violently oppose Israel"

Anything and everything can embolden and create hardliners and extremists. All it takes is for a group of angsty, xenophobic Muslims to adopt the more violent and radical doctrines of the Koran and go on a crusade against people different from them. There are sociopaths everywhere looking for an excuse to spread hate and violence. We just have to accept that they will always be there, and squash them when they become real threats

7/22/2014 4:43:51 PM

If you think that a military can bomb entire buildings, level entire city blocks, and within 15 days kill more than 600 people and critically injure over 3,000 more without hurting innocent civilians.....


...man, you're hopelessly retarded.

7/22/2014 4:44:35 PM

1. You can have an idea what Hamas is doing and still be innocent. As explained several times, I have a feeling most are just trying to go about their daily business and their building is hit, or a nearby building is hit, or a building is hit as they happen to drive it by it, etc. etc.
2. I don't think many people believe that Israel's main goal is to kill as many people as possible. I think most people think they actually are trying to hit military targets... but if that means that a few hundred civilians, including a few hundred women and children die in a few days in the process, then so be it.

^^i don't understand how you think an occupation wouldn't result in moderate Palestinians becoming more radicalized, and result in more extremists, more terrorism, and an acceptance of a more hardline, anti-Israel government. Again, put yourself in their shoes. How would you react if a foreign country invaded america, occupied it, imposed martial law, committed acts of atrocity... would you not become a "sociopath... looking for an excuse to spread hate and violence"? Wouldn't most red-blooded americans revolt against the occupying force, and stand-behind a provisional government that opposed the occupying force?

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 4:50 PM. Reason : ]

7/22/2014 4:45:29 PM

There is not a military in the world that can kill and injure this many people in a densely populated city within two weeks without a majority of them being innocent civilians.

It's fucking impossible. There never has been, and there never will be a military campaign with that level of precision. To ignore this reality is to ignore a massacre.

7/22/2014 4:54:10 PM

^^^^ how do you think that those things won't make Palestinians more angry? So much of the animosity is related to settlements and illegal occupation and your solution is complete occupation? And then a puppet government installed by Israel? That's not going to work, it never works. And what happens at the next election when the angry country reelects Hamas, or someone even worse? Occupy them again?

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 4:54 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2014 4:54:18 PM

Yeah, it's defending the indefensible. Mexican drug cartels dump truckloads of beheaded bodies onto highways, traffic in child prostitution, and generally engage in a kind of "narco-terrorism" that make people wish they would just lob inaccurate rockets around the desert. You still don't see entire city blocks getting leveled by the Mexican army, or air strikes on heavily populated areas. That requires a special brand of zealotry that can only come if you believe the people getting caught in the crossfire aren't worthy of life.

[Edited on July 22, 2014 at 5:03 PM. Reason : :]

7/22/2014 5:02:58 PM

How can you be mad at Israel for supposedly doing the same basic thing the Palestinians are doing? The Palestinians don't care if they indiscriminately kill civilians, women or children. They fire thousands of unguided rockets into Israel every year in hopes of doing just that. They don't care where they land, they just hope some Israleis die when they do. And indiscriminately targeting civilians is considered a war crime the last time I checked.

But that's ok, right? Because they're oppressed or something.

But when Israel gets tired of thousands of war crime rockets flying over their border, and goes to destroy the war crime rockets, all of a sudden Israel is committing an atrocity. AND, they're even giving notice! Are you kidding me? When in the history of warfare has the opposing side been like, "Hey, fuck you guys and all, but we're going to blow that building up. Yeah the one you're hiding the war crime rockets in. Yep. Just a heads up. Might want to move." Some 200 occupants were safely able to evacuate a building this morning before Israel bombed the shit out of it. Yep, that's wickedly and cruelly targeting civilians.

Gotcha. Glad to know I'm in the company of a bunch of hypocrites.

7/22/2014 5:13:16 PM