how many wins has Melo produced this year? asking your opinion, not asking you to cite a stat from nbageek.com

4/13/2013 5:37:28 PM

We are aware that Lebron does everything on the floor but that doesn't take away from Kobe's greatness. Its not a fair comparison. Also, Kobe hasn't had the opportunity to play in the Eastern conference.

4/13/2013 5:39:25 PM

He will once he signs with the Charlotte Hornets!!!


And when did he get busted for steroids? I totally missed that...

4/13/2013 5:48:05 PM

LOL, yeah thats the difference Lebron plays in the Eastern conference. Also, he's in a different time zone so he gets to go to bed before Kobe some nights. Plus he's younger so he's probably had better e-mail access than Kobe had when he first started his career.

Any other irrelevant details to add?



Hard to say. Carmelo considered as a SF has produced a handful of wins but if we consider him a PF it's a negligible amount.

The Jason Kidd addition is the driving force behind the Knicks improvement. Kidd is still a great PG and that was the Knicks glaring weakness last year. Plus a full season of JR Smith playing fairly well (about 3x as many minutes played as he played last year).

Originally I noted Tyson Chandler's spectacular season but he was just as great last season so that isn't why they improved. He's so dominant though...



Kobe's never been "busted" for steroids but it's pretty well known he sees a lot of foreign doctors and all. And we know pretty much every professional athlete uses HGH. I'm not saying he has an unfair advantage or anything, look at how many guys have been able to extend their careers the last decade in the NBA. Nash, carter, kobe, kidd, etc. It would be quite surprising to find that any of those guys weren't using, right?

[Edited on April 13, 2013 at 5:57 PM. Reason : a]

4/13/2013 5:52:22 PM

4/13/2013 5:58:29 PM

Shaq, Shaq, Shaq, Gasol & Bynum, Bynum & Gasol.

Kobe's been fortunate to play his entire career on one of the most loaded teams in the league. He's played at a high level for a really long time, but at no point did he have an ELITE season. Jordan never even had to go 7 games in the NBA finals, but if he did I'd bet good money he wouldn't choke like Kobe did and go 6-24 FG.


Since there seem to be an inordinate amount of Knicks/Carmelo fans on here I thought you'd find this interesting. They're actually being given a chance to dethrone Miami right now.

Quote :

"Miami is the best team in the East but the margin is overstated. They are a good but by all means not a great team. New York does look like a legit challenger to them but really it all comes down to which version of Melo shows up. Classic Melo comes in? Knicks struggle with Celts and probably fall in round 2. This Alternate version of Melo that Jason Kidd seems to have pulled thru a tear in the fabric of reality on behalf of the Pinkertons that makes good decisions and is effective shows up? Knicks/Heat goes seven in a toss-up."

And the Western Conf playoffs have potential to be the best ever this year. Obviously this was written slightly before the Kobe injury (and god does that injury suck for the lakers and for fans that wanted to see them try to make one final run AND for the $400 im out for betting on the lakers to win the west before the sesason)

Quote :

"Under the right circumstances (Bogut being healthy, Kobe getting 15 FTA per game, George Karl being George Karl, James Harden and Chris Paul being themselves), I could see every series in the West going seven games. Every Series, in every round. Really, I can only discount Houston, Denver and Golden State as title contenders from a historical perspective (on age) and I can’t eliminate them from getting to the WCF. Crazy."

[Edited on April 13, 2013 at 6:05 PM. Reason : a]

4/13/2013 6:02:54 PM

glad Arturo is finally coming around to what TWW has been saying for months

4/13/2013 6:07:03 PM

this has gotta be some of the worst luck ever.

Quote :

" Wow just realized I have $50 on Houston over 30.5 from last week haha. What a super lock that is now. Also have: Mavs under 44.5 Nuggets over 49.5 Pistons under 32.5 Lakers under 59.5 Knicks over 45.5 Magic over 24.5 Wizards over 27.5 Suns under 33.5 Then I have a few hundred on LOS RAPTURES over 32.5 And $3,500 on twolves over 38.5 -40.5. (The line kept moving on me everytime I put another $1k on it) $200 on lakers 8:1 to win title and 3.5:1 to win west that I took before the dwight trade like a genius. And $200 on durant mvp at +385 and $175 on lebron at +175"

On the smaller bets I went total billy bad ass 8-1 because im teh fucking god of NBA betting.

On toronto i have a small chance to win but i got fucked by a host of factors like trading their studs Calderon/Davis for Rudy fucking gay who sucks total sac this year. Bargnani i knew sucked but didn't know he was going to have the worst season in nba history. And then Landry fields missed half the season which was huge and lowry missed several games and sucked for a few when he first came back from injury.


Then the biggest lock ever Minnesota might have had the most games lost due to injuries of all-time. What a travesty that was they lost like 7 guys for the season plus kevin love sucked monkey dick because his thumb was messed up in the 15 games he did play. even stiemsma sucked this year wtf. Derrick williams is the worst #2 pick ever possibly that guy can't play. And don't get me started on the Barea/Shved platoon.

Not to mention i spent like $3k on that weekend vegas trip just to place the bet and state fucking lost to UNC in the worst football game ever while i was hungover. Then i had to fly back to the airport and sleep in my car that night because i had a fucking flat and my runflat was dead bc i drove it like 3 days before that because i just didnt have time to deal with it. i also banged my first non-white girl i got so hammered. What a shitty weekend id like to remove that whole thing from memory.



On top of that my Lakers is bet is now dead in the water because of the Kobe injury and it was on its last legs anyway because Dwight isn't that good this year, jordan hill out for season, and gasol/nash suffering MAJOR dropoffs this year.

Will win a little on lebron MVP but woulda been much more profitable if he'd been human and let durant win it for once.



I dont think its possible to win a better percentage of bets and still lose money. Aiming to win like $10k this postseason though.

[Edited on April 13, 2013 at 6:54 PM. Reason : a]

4/13/2013 6:51:20 PM

Dwight hasn't been that good this year, but the Lakers still came out like bandits in that trade

has Bynum even played this year?

4/13/2013 7:11:06 PM

no and he has the most ridiculous fucking haircut ever and he's a free agent to boot.

4/13/2013 7:21:22 PM

Quote :

". i also banged my first non-white girl i got so hammered."

4/13/2013 7:49:50 PM

^ Lol I like how he threw that in there in his list of lamentations.

non white girl you mean asian? cause black is great at all times

[Edited on April 13, 2013 at 8:38 PM. Reason : dd]

4/13/2013 8:38:06 PM

1. Jordan Hill
2. Dwight Howard
3. Antawn Jamison

best 3 Lakers this season, according to the flawless WP48 stat

[Edited on April 14, 2013 at 11:45 PM. Reason : not even really debatable]

4/14/2013 11:45:18 PM

Right, Jordan hill has been great since moving to the Lakers. But he didnt last long before being injured this year. His per minute totals are #1 but not his total wins produced. Don't think anyone would really disagree...

Dwight Howard has been a good center but terrible by his standards. He's usually almost twice as productive as he is this year.

Antawn Jamison came out of nowhere to resurrect his career this year.

Kobe's numbers are solid but not that great. He did play a ton more minutes than Jamison and he's played through various ailments so this is an example where minutes probably did factor in a little.

4/14/2013 11:50:49 PM

Howard is also an immature loser, what stat factors in his shitty me-first attitude?

lol Howard called out Kobe for taking the season "too seriously"

what a piece of shit

4/14/2013 11:55:46 PM

Quote :

"Howard is also an immature loser, what stat factors in his shitty me-first attitude? lol Howard called out Kobe for taking the season "too seriously" what a piece of shit"

face's slavish devotion to certain stats is as silly as this sort of psycho-babble

4/15/2013 12:34:21 AM

you mean stats like FG%, turnovers, rebounds, and steals?

4/15/2013 12:36:21 AM

you act like i'm the only one who feels that way about howard

he's a 7'0" toddler, i think most people realize that

4/15/2013 12:38:29 AM

no, i don't

i think everyone who does (save specific teammates/coaches) is retarded

4/15/2013 12:40:28 AM

so some of his former teammates and people like stan van gundy are the only people who arent retarded, even though a lot of other fans and members of the media have the exact same sentiments?

i've wasted plenty of time on TWW defending the NBA and how much of the league play hard, want to win, etc, when people bring up the all-about-the-money stereotypes

howard is that stereotype personified

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 12:43 AM. Reason : .]

4/15/2013 12:42:01 AM

Quote :

"you mean stats like FG%, turnovers, rebounds, and steals?"

not the stats themselves, but the conclusions drawn from them

like conclusions that claim Cole Aldrich/Ronnie Brewer are great and Russell Westbrook sucks

Quote :

"so some of his former teammates and people like stan van gundy are the only people who arent retarded, even though a lot of other fans and members of the media have the exact same sentiments?"

they're the only people qualified to make those sort of judgments because they're the only one's close enough to the situation to know what level of attitudinal impact he has on the team. and i've heard Van Gundy be way more complimentary than critical of the guy, always commending his effort. and i've never heard any teammates or coaches call him a "loser."

i wouldn't be shocked if he's generally an entitled douche. but i'd say you're naive if you think that's unusual for any marquee athlete/entertainer. but what the fuck do i care about his personality. i'm not interested in turning sports into TMZ.

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 12:50 AM. Reason : ...]

4/15/2013 12:43:35 AM

Ronnie Brewer is great and Russell Westbrook doesn't suck he's an above average PG.

The league is so stacked at PG right now that you have to truly be a stud to grade out well at PG. Like CPIII


Dont forget how badly Utah fell off after they lost Brewer and how much worse the bulls got by signing Rip Hamilton to replace him.

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 12:51 AM. Reason : a]

4/15/2013 12:49:55 AM

Ronnie Brewer is great at basketball in the sense that he's a deserving rotational player in the NBA, but it ends there. no team is gonna win a championship with him as one of their best 4 guys. (Utah and Chicago lost more than just Brewer)

i'm with you on the total supremacy of Paul. i was saying he's a challenge to Isaiah Thomas as the greatest point guard ever seasons ago (and i think people here gave me shit for it).

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 12:56 AM. Reason : ...]

4/15/2013 12:55:20 AM

they should give you shit for it b/c thomas wasn't the greatest point guard ever

4/15/2013 12:58:31 AM

for me, Magic transcends position

4/15/2013 1:02:41 AM

Thomas was pretty overrated. He was like westbrook in that he's a ton of fun to watch but his statistics weren't all that great. Just played on some NASTY loaded teams.

He was great in 1985 and very good in 1984 and 1986 but average or below the rest of his career.

http://wagesofwins.com/2013/02/18/was-isiah-thomas-one-of-the-greatest-point-guards-ever/

Spells it out really nicely. He's a guy I was pretty shocked wasn't actually that great. (Most of his prime was a little before my time) because announcers and all always hyped him a lot. Mostly due to his personality and scoring/size i guess.

Quote :

" You see, Isiah Thomas simply isn’t anywhere near the same level as other point guards greats. Let’s just do a simple test, what if we look for point guards since 1978 with more wins than Isiah Thomas. Isiah is ranked 24th*! Is that “good”? probably. All time great though? Nowhere close. Isiah does have one thing to his credit. He played over 35,000 minutes, which is pretty rare. What if we restrict our list to players with 30,000 or more minutes and then examine by per-minute rank. How’s Isiah fair then? Isiah still ends up ranked 13th, right behind Derek Harper. In fact, if we check Isiah’s career totals, he ends with a WP48 of 0.099. What’s that mean? It means he was exactly average. Now, a long career of average play is in fact quite impressive (just ask Kobe) but it does not make you one of the top point guards of all time."

There's an excerpt from the link but the whole article is worth reading

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 1:09 AM. Reason : a]

4/15/2013 1:05:30 AM

don't sleep on The Glove

4/15/2013 1:09:10 AM

* Here’s the list of point guards with better win totals than Isiah Thomas (in order)

John Stockton
Magic Johnson
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Mark Jackson
Maurice Cheeks
Gary Payton
Terry Porter
Andre Miller
Chris Paul
Fat Lever
Nate McMillan
Rod Strickland
Chauncey Billups
Muggsy Bogues
Mookie Blaylock
Derek Harper
Doc Rivers
Anfernee Hardaway
Mark Price
John Lucas
Tony Parker
Rajon Rondo

4/15/2013 1:12:24 AM

his prime was definitely before my time. but his 16 pts in the final 90 secs vs the Knicks in 84 and his 24 in the 4th vs the Lakers in 87 (great ESPN/NBA Classic games) combined with the adulation of his peers/writers and his college success and being the best player on 2 championship teams (the only championship teams with a point guard as the best player) have always been enough for me to give him a nod. of course, i could totally be wrong because i didn't truly watch him play. that's one of the reasons all-time player rankings is generally pretty stupid.

based on purely my eye test, the best point guards ever go Chris Paul and then Jason Kidd/Gary Payton with Kevin Johnson closely behind because i was a huge Charles Barkley/Suns fan as a kid.

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 1:17 AM. Reason : ...]

4/15/2013 1:16:55 AM

well he wasn't the best player on those championship teams though. He was probably like 5th or 6th those teams were loaded with legitimate all-time greats like Rodman.

And yes his 24 point outburst is legendary. But still not an all-time great because he had major longevity issues. His game declined unexpectedly at age 25.

4/15/2013 1:19:54 AM

maybe he wasn't the best on the team according to wagesofwins, but until i hear one of his teammates/peers suggest that Dumars/Laimbeer/Mahorn/Aguirre were more indispensable than Zeke i ain't hearing it. i'm more willing to consider Rodman. definitely one of the most underrated basketball players of all-time.

Quote :

"But still not an all-time great because he had major longevity issues. His game declined unexpectedly at age 25."

the longevity thing is a personal quirk of mine. i don't think it necessarily has anything to with greatness. i'm more interested in the highest peak than the longest range. that's why i'll take Mount Everest over the Andes and Michael Vick over Troy Aikman all day.

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 1:33 AM. Reason : ...]

4/15/2013 1:30:37 AM

Vinnie Johnson was the James Harden of the Bad Boy Pistons

I'd expect face would say The Microwave was the best player on those teams

4/15/2013 1:34:16 AM

i wish Monta Ellis idolized Vinnie Johnson

4/15/2013 1:38:08 AM

People stil watch the nba? Even though half of the superstars are hurt?

4/15/2013 2:00:54 AM

Rondo is the only superstar i can think of that is hurt. Unless you mean superstar as in celebrity not really basketball skill and you're counting guys like Rose and Kobe.

4/15/2013 2:10:47 AM

4 of the 7 active MVP winners are out or were out most of the season. PLUS RONDO.

4/15/2013 2:16:46 AM

Okay Nash/Kobe/Dirk are no longer superstars in terms of basketball. Celebrity wise sure.

Derrick Rose was never a superstar, that MVP was just basketball writers trolling us.


Although there are some solid teams who have taken some hits injury wise none of the top contenders Miami, OKC, or SAS have really been ravaged by injuries.

It's not like this season needs an asterik or anything. Though it certainly makes the playoffs a little less thrilling, this western conf. playoffs could be the best of all time.

4/15/2013 2:38:04 AM

I know upsets don't happen a lot but we do need an asterisk when 4 teams that could get hot and beat anybody are out.

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 2:41 AM. Reason : lets not forget this was the bulls' nba before rose got hurt.]

4/15/2013 2:41:23 AM

Kobe is still a superstar

I still say he fucked face's girlfriend one time and he never forgave him

seems like the only plausible explanation for his unabashed hatred for one of the top-10 players in NBA history

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 2:49 AM. Reason : maybe he just fucked Dave Berri's girlfriend or Arturo Galletti's boyfriend]

4/15/2013 2:48:29 AM

uh the heat beat the bulls with rose remember? And the heat are a heck of a lot better than they were two years ago.


I wish kobe fucked my girlfriend that'd mean i have a really hot one probably.

I don't hate kobe i used to be a fan of his. Just went his game fell off so remarkably and he wouldn't play team ball i soured on him a little.

And i do kinda dislike really overrated guys for some reason. Since he's been arguably the most overrated player in the league for the past ~5 seasons it's easy for my posts on him to be construed as 'hate' when in reality i just hate that people can't look at Kobe objectively for some reason.

Like people dont seem to have a problem saying dirk is washed up. Weird they couldn't do that for kobe the last few years.

4/15/2013 2:59:57 AM

Quote :

"Since he's been arguably the most overrated player in the league for the past ~5 seasons"

who's been a more overrated player ever?

as this debate of whether or not Kobe's a superstar continues, shouldn't someone first define what a superstar is? i contend a superstar has to automatically elevate his team to playoff status. even though he's still highly-skilled at creating his own shot, used to be pretty good defensively, and is the best at making unbelievably difficult shots (mostly because he takes so many of them), he doesn't qualify as a superstar. if the league were reduced to one-on-one tournament, though, (pre-injury) he'd probably be a top-5 guy.

the thing that bugs me most about the current Kobe worship spreading around the NBA-following universe is that it retroactively diminishes how fucking incredible Shaq was in his Lakers heyday.

4/15/2013 3:18:46 AM

^^Kobe plays team ball, he just knows that many times he is the best option in crunch time when they need to win the game

But you'd prefer he be a spotup shooter that went 3/5 from the field every game because efficiency is the most important thing in the history of basketball

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 3:21 AM. Reason : lol at you 2 saying Kobe isn't a superstar]

i dunno about you screentest, but face says players like Nene and Stiesma are superstars, so his definition is pretty off-base

Carmelo is obviously a superstar, but face will barely recognize him as a top-20 player in the Atlantic division

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 3:25 AM. Reason : .]

4/15/2013 3:20:13 AM

i'm not down with a lot of face's player assessments, but i agree that Kobe is hella overrated.

as for the "superstar" label, presently it's a completely arbitrary designation. until it's defined, then it's interchangeable with great/spectacular/amazing/etc.

for me, Lebron, Durant, Chris Paul and Dwight Howard before this year (i'll be interested to see if a change of scenery/full recovery from injury elevates him to where he was) have an impact far beyond anyone else in the league. they'll take any crappy team to the playoffs, and make any good team a title contender.

4/15/2013 3:38:31 AM

Jordan is pretty much the only superstar SG to win a title without a dominant big man. I don't think anyone is saying Kobe is as good as MJ. But after MJ, Kobe is next on the list of all time great SGs. face likes to tout Drexler, but he couldn't get it done without The Dream. Nobody else other than those 3 are even really in the conversation unless you wanna go back to Jerry West or something, but I don't like comparing players from vastly different eras. Kobe might be overrated in that he hasn't won a championship in 3 years, but thats about it.

here are a few players who are more overrated than Kobe, and also not as good, just at the 2 guard position, and just in Kobe's era:

Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady

4/15/2013 4:30:48 AM

it's not necessary to mention the giants Kobe played with, right?

i think McGrady's better than Kobe, Wade is every bit as good, and Vince Carter, well, i hear he's a nice guy and he hangs with Dominique Wilkins in the best NBA dunkers club

4/15/2013 5:02:05 AM

It's a team sport, no one player wins a championship anymore.

MJ had a LOT of help from some GREAT(Hall of Fame) players, as did Kobe, as did Wade. McGrady hasn't sniffed a championship, so not sure why he's lumped in that discussion. It's like saying Phil Jackson is just an average coach and shouldn't make the HoF because he won surrounded by good players.

Kobe is still a "superstar". If you think the Lakers would have been sniffing playoff contention this year without him, you're lying to yourself. He's just as important to that team as Melo is to the Knicks and Lebron is to the Heat. Yeah he's lost a step or two along the way, but dude's been playing for quite a while now(since 1996) and is still competing and is a sure-fire first-ballot hall of fame guy. Hard not to consider him a superstar with the resume he's bringing to the table.

4/15/2013 7:45:09 AM

Quote :

"Since there seem to be an inordinate amount of Knicks/Carmelo fans on here I thought you'd find this interesting"

I'm pretty sure they are solely the people that seek out arguments with you on here. In fact, I don't really remember any other Knicks fans on here aside from me.

4/15/2013 8:06:25 AM

Ludicrous. You take kobe off the lakers they are slightly worse. LeBron is having the greatest season in nba history

4/15/2013 8:17:31 AM

Stop with the Shaq stuff. I'm not sure anyone has ever won a title without another dominant player.

4/15/2013 10:14:46 AM

I totally agree Lebron is the best player in the league right now and it's not even close. I was using the comparison to point out Kobe is just as important to his team as Lebron is to his team. Neither team is making the playoffs without either of them for an extended period of time this season.

Kobe and Lebron are both "superstars" in the NBA was more the point I was trying to get across.

4/15/2013 10:48:13 AM