^ *Sigh* Not that any of this matters at all concerning the topic (and you're probably just mining for info), but I have served my country, my state, and my city in various ways. Furthermore, I've been honored for heroism--I guarantee that you've never done and never will do anything heroic (meaning risking your life to save others) in your life.

Yes, I am a higher education professional. What of it? If one doesn't educate oneself, you complain. If one educates oneself, you complain. The lesson here is that you will complain regardless, McDanger. You have no real arguments to advance other that anyone who disagrees with you--meaning conservatives--are dumb, greedy, racist bigots who have no life. Well, I'm none of those things and I'll stack my life up against anyone's.

Nevertheless, I'll demonstrate that you simply cannot argue on the merits. You and some others here seem to be claiming that any who oppose the mosque are bigoted against Muslims, right? Well, as I pointed out, there are over a hundred mosques in New York, thousands in the United States, we honored a Muslim woman with the title of Miss USA, and we elected a president whose father was Muslim. These things matter.

Refute these points without name-calling or GTFO. BTW, to be saving the world as you claim, you sure spend a lot of time here.

8/24/2010 11:27:41 AM

Quote :

"What do his accomplishments, of lack thereof, have to do with his suggestion that you haven't accomplished anything? Isn't that a form of ad hominem?"

His original assertion that I (and others) hadn't accomplished anything or would never accomplish anything of importance was an ad hominem argument, on its own. Those attacks had nothing to do with the topic; it was purely an emotional outburst. That's a typical response from a person that can't adequately defend their position.

8/24/2010 11:30:57 AM

Quote :

"What do his accomplishments, of lack thereof, have to do with his suggestion that you haven't accomplished anything?"

Since the implication is that a person's opinions should be viewed in light of his or her accomplishments, and that therefore his opinion is superior, I would say it has everything to do with it.

Apparently, he thinks his background researching brain scanners affords him the ability to dismiss people's opinions about politics and religion without even bothering to offer a counter-argument. Consider me unpersuaded.

8/24/2010 11:36:50 AM

Quote :

" Apparently, he thinks his background researching brain scanners affords him the ability to dismiss people's opinions about politics and religion without even bothering to offer a counter-argument. Consider me unpersuaded."

hmm yes why would a joint expertise in mathematics, computer science, statistics, and empirical science/methods translate into knowing anything about politics and religion?

"politics" is it's own special domain that has nothing to do with causal reasoning, i see i see

Quote :

" His original assertion that I (and others) hadn't accomplished anything or would never accomplish anything of importance was an ad hominem argument, on its own. Those attacks had nothing to do with the topic; it was purely an emotional outburst. That's a typical response from a person that can't adequately defend their position."

Might you understand why I'm tired of discussing matters that are, at their heart, causal/statistical with people who don't know anything about either?

Quote :

"Nevertheless, I'll demonstrate that you simply cannot argue on the merits. You and some others here seem to be claiming that any who oppose the mosque are bigoted against Muslims, right? Well, as I pointed out, there are over a hundred mosques in New York, thousands in the United States, we honored a Muslim woman with the title of Miss USA, and we elected a president whose father was Muslim. These things matter. "

And the mosque protests in Staten Island, Brooklyn, Ohio, Tennessee, etc etc etc? These aren't protests about the 9/11 mosques, but about new local mosques. Should we just say "oh well we voted a muslim 'most adorable bimbo', so fuck em the age of islamophobia is over"? Get real.

Quote :

"Since the implication is that a person's opinions should be viewed in light of his or her accomplishments, and that therefore his opinion is superior, I would say it has everything to do with it. "

Not necessarily accomplishments. I was just flinging poo at the failures and know-nothings who crow on these boards nonstop. Somebody's opinions SHOULD be viewed in light of their expertise and knowledge, however. Look at the global warming thread; millions of pages and not a qualified person present to analyze the data. Just side A listening to pundits and side B listening to scientists. lol.

Political "scientists" are hilarious. They have the same little-dick syndrome that linguists, psychologists, and other soft scientists have. As if people should defer to their "specialized knowledge" that literally anybody with a decent high-school/college education could pick up in their spare time (see: Kris who owns you guys daily).

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 12:47 PM. Reason : .]

8/24/2010 12:39:22 PM

Quote :

"we honored a Muslim woman with the title of Miss USA"

Dude, "we" didn't choose Miss USA. A panel of celebrity judges chose Miss USA. Bringing this into the argument is making you look absurd.

8/24/2010 12:46:08 PM

Quote :

"Bringing this into the argument is making you look absurd."

Do you think he knows what absurd looks like? He misses it every day in the mirror.

8/24/2010 12:49:14 PM

Hahaha so let's get this straight

Optimum starts a thread suggesting everybody calm down and talk rationally. Everybody says "no, fuck you faggot". Then I decide hey, if they're not going to play nice, what's my INCENTIVE? None. Therefore, I'm going to remind you know-nothings that you know nothing until you decide to crack a fucking book.

hooksaw you are an "education professional"? In what? What is your area of expertise? So far as I can tell from your posts, you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. What skills or specialized knowledge do you have other than how to beat up browns in the state pen?

edit: gotta love the baseless charges of "superiority". Just because you fucking dolts don't know anything and are borderline mentally handicapped doesn't mean I think I'm a genius. Grow the fuck up and learn something.

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 12:53 PM. Reason : .]

8/24/2010 12:52:09 PM

Apparently in all your "expertise in mathematics, computer science, statistics, and empirical science/methods", you failed to pick up reading comprehension.

Quote :

"Do not consecutively reply to a topic - If you are within the alloted timespan for editing a message that no one has replied to and you think of something to add, EDIT the message. DO NOT REPLY AGAIN. Constant abuse of this will not be tolerated."

8/24/2010 1:26:37 PM

Quote :

"Somebody's opinions SHOULD be viewed in light of their expertise and knowledge, however."

McDanger

Okay, let's do that with just a few of your posts.

Quote :

"I don't hold a high opinion of myself, I just recognize the ridiculousness of an ex-prison guard turned shitty academic roleplaying O'Reilly vs. a bunch of 20-somethings"

First, I'm proud of my state service; why do you degrade it? You are so far out of touch that you don't even realize how much of an elitist you come across as.

Second, I realize that in your limited intellectual framework all conservatives are thrown onto a homogeneous pile of suck, but this is nothing more than laziness. O'Reilly, for example, is more of a populist but is not terribly popular among social conservatives like, say, Mark Levin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1-ZgouoJso

You reveal your ignorance of modern conservatism with every post. Please educate yourself before you pop off.

Third, I'm not a "shitty academic"--I happen to be an accomplished one. If you were to enter my name and "NCSU" into Google search, the first thing that comes up is "The Graduate School Honors Excellence."

Quote :

"hmm yes why would a joint expertise in mathematics, computer science, statistics, and empirical science/methods translate into knowing anything about politics and religion?"

McDanger

This is a big part of your problem. You think that your rather commonplace blend of education and experience makes you an expert of some sort concerning just about everything. This is just the type of thinking that brought us Al Gore (who holds a BA in government) and IPCC Chair Dr. R.K. Pachauria (who holds PhDs in industrial engineering and economics). I don't see you objecting to their education, which is not in climatology or a related discipline. Why not?

Speaking of climate change:

Quote :

"Look at the global warming thread; millions of pages and not a qualified person present to analyze the data."

McDanger

LOL! See above and I happen to hold a graduate concentration that is partly composed of energy policy. I have had more graduate coursework in and know more about energy policy than you will ever know. I have done the research (and continue to) and I have interviewed those implementing energy policy in our state and beyond (and continue to).

BTW, no one cares what you think of my coursework. If it were the best quantitative courses offered by Harvard, you'd find a way to put it down.

Quote :

"edit: gotta love the baseless charges of 'superiority'."

McDanger

The claim is not baseless at all. In fact, your smugness is a running joke around here. One has to look no further than just about any thread you post in. BTW, periods should be placed inside closing quotation marks, Captain Logic.

But can we please get back on topic? McDanger, you or no one else, frankly, has refuted my points. Care to give it another shot?

In any event, the point is that a country, the United States, that would do all the things I listed clearly does not hate Muslims, as you suggested. I wonder how many Muslim countries would allow a Jew or other infidel to hold a title representing them? (The former Queen Noor of Jordan notwithstanding.) And is Miss USA, for example, a bigot against. . .um. . .herself because she doesn't support the mosque near Ground Zero?

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 2:02 PM. Reason : BTW, Kris doesn't pwn anyone around here and neither do you and you never have. ]

8/24/2010 1:42:55 PM

My dad used to like O'Reilly.

Now he says that O'Reilly has changed sides. has become a liberal.

And he's serious when he says this.

I often wonder what would happen if my dad got on TSB.

8/24/2010 2:03:49 PM

^ O'Reilly is scared to death that someone is going to call him a racist or unfair to Obama. He appears to me to be guided by populist opinion rather than a strict set of core principles--thus his sign-off of "We're looking out for you" and other examples.

8/24/2010 2:09:57 PM

How can anyone stand to listen to Mark Levin? His nasally voice is just insufferable.

Even the US flag can't tolerate him (or the hundreds of other buffoons at this thing): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03xG9VacVoI&feature=related

8/24/2010 3:23:58 PM

^ Yeah, you've told me that before. And I've agreed that he can be a bit shrill at times.

I don't agree with everything Levin says or even the way he says it--I'm not a social conservative. But like a number of other conservatives in media today, he often raises important issues that I can't find on CNN or similar outlets.

8/24/2010 3:28:34 PM

Quote :

"Might you understand why I'm tired of discussing matters that are, at their heart, causal/statistical with people who don't know anything about either?"

They're not statistical at their heart, though. You might be able to make some inferences, or draw some correlations, by applying statistical methods, but we're talking about human behavior here. Statistics are just a tool. They don't prove anything; someone that had taken an introductory statistics class would tell you as much. This is not a hard science that you're accustomed to dealing with. It's a social science, and in social science, there are no absolutes like there are in mathematics or computer science. One plus one will always equal two, but humans (and animals, in general) are far too complex to boil down to simple equations or proofs. There are forces at work, that drive evolution and the advancement of society, that no one has come close to modeling accurately.

Quote :

"Political "scientists" are hilarious. They have the same little-dick syndrome that linguists, psychologists, and other soft scientists have. As if people should defer to their "specialized knowledge" that literally anybody with a decent high-school/college education could pick up in their spare time (see: Kris who owns you guys daily)."

Again, as long as you view things in this light, you'll be miles behind in the debate. Keynesian economics has often been supported by people, like you, that think econometrics and statistics are capable of modeling reality. It isn't possible. You're a tiny speck in this universe, and while you might think you can grasp the intricacies of our world, you can't. You're not even close, and you will never be close. Some of the most advanced software in the world cannot predict a crash when its programmers rely on false assumptions, as they so often do.

The fact that you think Kris has been owning anyone here exposes how off base you are.

8/24/2010 3:45:54 PM

Social scientists can and do mathematize their theories, sorry dawg but you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about and that anti-intellectual, uninformed "we can't ever crack these mysteries" bullshit is just that.

l o fucking l. Graduate undergrad and let your balls drop before you try and instruct everybody on what is and isn't mathematizable because you're talking sideways out of your ass, as usual.

Quote :

"Keynesian economics has often been supported by people, like you, that think econometrics and statistics are capable of modeling reality. It isn't possible."

You sound like theologians in the pre-modern period talking about physics

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 4:21 PM. Reason : .]

8/24/2010 4:20:04 PM

Will the unknown scientist Captain Logic save humankind by plugging all problems into his advanced neuroimaging device? Tune in next week!

8/24/2010 4:28:52 PM

I design the fucking device you idiot

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 4:34 PM. Reason : If by "device" you mean calculator for doing the analysis]

8/24/2010 4:34:20 PM

This thread isn't about my scientific work, anyway

It's about bigots and the wholesale sacrifice of american values

8/24/2010 4:36:06 PM

^^ It was satire. I'm not surprised that you don't get it.

^ Fine by me--what we should be doing is discussing the topic. You brought up your work in the context of claiming that others had no accomplishments or some such ad hom nonsense.

Now, refute my points--without more logical fallacies--or GTFO. How can a country that hates Muslims, as much as you claim, have so many mosques, overwhelmingly support the right to build more mosques, honor a Muslim woman with the title of Miss USA, and elect a president whose father was a Muslim?

And how do you explain the position of these people who also want the mosque near Ground Zero to be built elsewhere?

Quote :

"David Paterson Harry Reid Howard Dean 54 percent of Democrats polled 70 percent of independents polled 70 percent of Americans polled Some Muslims"

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 4:47 PM. Reason : How?]

8/24/2010 4:43:38 PM

^ That's like asking how a country with a black president could still be racist. Are you seriously questioning whether or not America is Islamophobic?

Quote :

"And how do you explain the position of these people who also want the mosque near Ground Zero to be built elsewhere?"

For the politicians, I'd explain it as pandering to the masses of people that want it built elsewhere. Those people's sensibilities are based solely around equivocation of < 20 people with 1.7 billion people.

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 4:50 PM. Reason : .]

8/24/2010 4:49:26 PM

Quote :

"David Paterson Harry Reid Howard Dean 54 percent of Democrats polled 70 percent of independents polled 70 percent of Americans polled Some Muslims"

Each and every one of them is entitled to their opinion (right or wrong), but the laws in this country protect the rights of minorities against mob mentality.

There is no compelling reason why Cordoba House (basically a muslim YMCA) should not be build wherever the hell the owners damned well please.

8/24/2010 4:54:13 PM

Quote :

"There is no compelling reason why Cordoba House (basically a muslim YMCA) should not be build wherever the hell the owners damned well please."

You are entitled to your opinion regarding whether a reason is compelling.

8/24/2010 5:01:10 PM

^^ Why are those against the mosque of a "mob mentality"? I'm not part of any mob--and I doubt that a lot of others opposed are either.

Yes, there are, in fact, compelling reasons. Many of those reasons have been described here and elsewhere--you and others simply don't agree with the reasons. And some choose to lazily write off any who disagree as nothing more than "bigots." But this just isn't the case.

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 5:07 PM. Reason : And what is the meaning in choosing the name "Cordoba"? Just asking.]

8/24/2010 5:04:48 PM

The people opposing the mosque might not be bigots themselves, but are certainly more concerned with protecting the feelings of bigots than protecting the rights of normal Americans.

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 5:06 PM. Reason : Why they'd want to do this is beyond me.]

8/24/2010 5:06:08 PM

Quote :

"How can a country that hates Muslims, as much as you claim, have so many mosques, overwhelmingly support the right to build more mosques, honor a Muslim woman with the title of Miss USA"

BHO is not a muslim, and has never been a muslim. his birth father disappeared from his life as an infant. he was raised an atheist. he later became a christian. most people know this, at least enough to elect him president. (...well, that, and combined with some people who correctly feared Palin more than they feared "secret muslim")

but why on earth are we talking about Miss USA? it's meaningless and a farce. anyhow, if they really wanted a Muslim woman, they'd pick some a woman who would only dare be seen fully clothed and with a head scarf. this woman, miss USA, is a Muslim only in the most nominal sense. strutting around in bikinis she does not even remotely represent 99.9% of the muslim women in this world

fact is, this country is full of people who are fundamentally biased against muslims. people who fear and loathe the muslim religion, of which they know little or nothing about. Islam has replaced communism as the boogeyman for americans nationwide.






[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 5:17 PM. Reason : ]

8/24/2010 5:10:07 PM

^^ That hasn't been your position up to this point. You've implied that anyone who opposes the mosque is a bigot and/or a coward.

Quote :

"Americans who oppose this Mosque are disgraceful cowards."

McDanger

message_topic.aspx?topic=595066&page=14

And I guess you have no meaningful retort to my points?

^ It is absolutely not a "farce" or anything of the sort! This is a valid point:

Quote :

"In any event, the point is that a country, the United States, that would do all the things I listed clearly does not hate Muslims, as you suggested. I wonder how many Muslim countries would allow a Jew or other infidel to hold a title representing them? (The former Queen Noor of Jordan notwithstanding.)"

hooksaw

Tell me where? And who the hell are you to judge whether Fakih is a "good" Muslim or not? That seems rather bigoted to me.

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 5:18 PM. Reason : I haven't seen you question Imam Rauf's "good" Muslim status--why question Fakih's?]

8/24/2010 5:17:08 PM

Quote :

"people who fear and loathe the muslim religion"

http://www.alternet.org/rights/147920/fallout_of_hate_is_spreading_across_america_from_%22ground_zero%22/

Quote :

"In May, a man walked into the Jacksonville Islamic Center in Northeast Florida during evening prayers and detonated a pipebomb. Fortunately, there were no injuries. It was the most serious of a series of incidents in which mosques far from the supposedly hallowed earth of Ground Zero have been targeted. A mosque in Miami, Florida, was sprayed with gunfire last year. Mosques have been vandalized or set aflame in Brownstown, Michigan; Nashville, Tennessee; Arlington, Texas (where the mosque was first vandalized and then later targeted by arsonists); Taylor, South Carolina; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; Eugene, Oregon; Cape Girardeau, Missouri; Tempe, Arizona; and in both Northern and Southern California. A mosque in a suburb of Chicago has been vandalized four times in recent years. In May, an Arab man was brutally beaten in broad daylight in New York by four young men. According to the victim’s nephew, "They used the bad word. 'The mother bleeping Muslim, go back to your country.' They started beating him and after that he don't know what happened.” A Muslim woman in Chicago was assaulted by another woman who took offense at her headscarf. A Muslim teacher in Florida was sent a white powdery substance in the mail. In San Diego, a man in his 50s became so incensed by the sight of an American of Afghan descent praying that he assaulted him after screaming, “You idiot, you mother f**ker, go back to where you came from." "

The media and politicians making the NY mosque an "Election Issue" are just going to fan the flames (I hope I'm wrong).

8/24/2010 5:21:41 PM

^^ They ARE disgraceful cowards. They want to pander to bigots (or ARE bigots).

I'm sorry but I take freedom of religion too seriously to spit in the face of Muslim Americans. Am I more pissed off because this issue plays right into the hands of Al Qaeda? You betcha. This serves as wonderful propaganda for their recruitment mills, and this event alone will probably account for dozens, if not hundreds, of new terrorists. Lovely.

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 5:23 PM. Reason : .]

8/24/2010 5:22:34 PM

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap


For you fox news fans.

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 5:31 PM. Reason : fucking embed doesn't work for TDS. ]

8/24/2010 5:30:06 PM

Quote :

"it is absolutely not a "farce" or anything of the sort! Tell me where? And who the hell are you to judge whether Fakih is a "good" Muslim or not? That seems rather bigoted to me."

Miss Universe pageant is not a farce? well, i agree it's quite serious at parading a bunch of hotties around. But you mean, it's a valid expression of the will of the American People? Really??

as for my questioning the depth of her professed religion, i admit it sounds a bit ... judgmental, but i think i'm pretty safe in claiming that any Muslim woman who parades around in public wearing a bikini without a family male escort, is willfully and blatantly violating some of the basic rules of their religion. I believe that posing topless for publicly viewed photos ist verboten as well.







but hey, if she says she's Muslim, then I say Muslim Grrlz Rawk!





[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 5:35 PM. Reason : ]

8/24/2010 5:32:25 PM

^^^ I just want to be clear and get you on record. Anyone who opposes the mosque near Ground Zero is (1) a "bigot" and (2) a "disgraceful coward," correct?

And you don't seem to have the same concern for Christians. I have seen no evidence of it here, at least.

^ Oh, c'mon, man! That's not the point and you know it. Whether the Miss USA pageant or the title itself has the relevance or prestige that it once did is not the damned point! The point is that a Muslim woman has been given the honor of the national title of Miss USA by Americans! And she has a national platform, such as it is, from which to speak and address various issues.

Furthermore, what Muslim countries would allow a Jew or other infidel to hold a title representing them? (The former Queen Noor of Jordan notwithstanding.) We are, at least, quite tolerant relative to those countries, some of which stone women to death for mere accusations of infidelity and other "crimes."

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 5:45 PM. Reason : I'm sorry but this simply must be acknowledged!]

8/24/2010 5:45:02 PM

Quote :

"I just want to be clear and get you on record. Anyone who opposes the mosque near Ground Zero is (1) a "bigot" and (2) a "disgraceful coward," correct? And you don't seem to have the same concern for Christians. I have seen no evidence of it here, at least."

Show me a place in this country where the same thing is happening to Christians and I'll get up in arms. I don't like Christianity OR Islam, but I don't have to like them to support their right to exist peacefully in this country. It's practically the fucking POINT of this country that they be allowed to do so.

Quote :

"Furthermore, what Muslim countries would allow a Jew or other infidel to hold a title representing them? (The former Queen Noor of Jordan notwithstanding.) We are, at least, quite tolerant relative to those countries, some of which stone women to death for mere accusations of infidelity and other "crimes.""

Why does this matter? I don't give a fuck what backwards, third-world shit-holes do. This is America, not Qatar.

8/24/2010 5:49:25 PM

Quote :

"we honored a Muslim woman with the title of Miss USA"

Miss USA is not elected by the american people. That's like saying the entire universe honored Mr. Universe. She won a beauty contest. What you are saying is downright silly. If this is the best argument you can make it doesn't surprise me that you generally resort to parroting news articles, it makes you look much less stupid.

Quote :

"we elected a president whose father was Muslim"

Yes, in fact many people who don't like him think he is, in fact, a muslim, and I'd be willing to bet that's one of the reasons they don't like him.

Quote :

"These things matter."

No, the outcome of a beauty contest is the very definition of something that doesn't matter.

8/24/2010 5:50:11 PM

Quote :

"Whether the Miss USA pageant or the title itself has the relevance or prestige that it once did is not the damned point!"

Miss USA has always been in the shadow of the original, Miss America, ever since it splintered off. Kinda like RC Cola. I mean, who really drinks that shit? Anyhow, since Donald Trump bought it, it's even less relevant

Quote :

"a Muslim woman has been given the honor of the national title of Miss USA by Americans! Donald Trump's handpicked elite panel."

fixed that for you.

Quote :

"And she has a national platform, such as it is, from which to speak and address various issues."

QUICK!

Name one thing that any previous Miss USA has accomplished!

No, you cant look on Wikipedia.

Quote :

"Furthermore, what Muslim countries would allow a Jew or other infidel to hold a title representing them? some of which stone women to death for mere accusations of infidelity and other "crimes." "

can't compare. most of them don't even compete. they won't put their own women in such contests.


And the vast majority of Muslims, the TRUE Muslims not the extreme radicals, consider Jews and Christians to be "People of the Book" and therefore NOT infidels.

Iran, for example, has been historically exceedingly tolerant of other religions: Jews and Christians especially have lived there for centuries. With the understanding that you dont try to convert each other's people.





[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 6:13 PM. Reason : ]

8/24/2010 6:11:00 PM

Quote :

"Social scientists can and do mathematize their theories, sorry dawg but you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about and that anti-intellectual, uninformed "we can't ever crack these mysteries" bullshit is just that. l o fucking l. Graduate undergrad and let your balls drop before you try and instruct everybody on what is and isn't mathematizable because you're talking sideways out of your ass, as usual."

They may "mathematize" their theories, but it's never taken as an absolute way of real world modeling. We don't have ways to model economics (or human behavior in general) with 100% accuracy. You're delusional if you think we can. The fact that you think that this is an open and shut case shows that you haven't even been exposed to the debates that have been occurring for centuries on this subject. I would think that the majority of students and faculty in CHASS would object to the assertions you're making about the appropriateness of applying mathematical models to social sciences. Of course, in your own mind, you know better than all of them.

I graduated, but I don't see how that would help here. A bunch of classes in American government, political theory, international relations, or law and justice wouldn't make me any more equipped to combat your "if you're not a mathematician you're not allowed to talk about politics" theory. I'm embarrassed for you, because I know you're not stupid or incapable of understanding the principles of social science, just willfully ignorant. I'm extremely curious how statistical analysis would answer the question of whether or not we should build a mosque near ground zero. Feel free to fire off some more insults when you inevitably draw a blank, though.

8/24/2010 6:11:04 PM

^^^^

Quote :

"I just want to be clear and get you on record. Anyone who opposes the mosque near Ground Zero is (1) a 'bigot' and (2) a 'disgraceful coward,' correct?"

Answer the question.

^^^

Quote :

"Miss USA is not elected by the american [sic] people. That's like saying the entire universe honored Mr. Universe."

No, she was named by Americans to represent the USA. And, no, it's not at all like that. Furthermore, many officials who represent the United States aren't "elected" either--yet they still represent America.

It's great how some of you smug judgmental know-it-alls just dismiss a position like Miss USA. FYI, the organization itself has humanitarian goals and charitable alliances that one would think some of you would support. And the position does a lot of good in the country and the world.

^^ But none of this is the point and you know it. My points stand on their own merits and no matter how much you flail, you can refute them.

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 6:12 PM. Reason : .]

8/24/2010 6:11:25 PM

Quote :

"I just want to be clear and get you on record. Anyone who opposes the mosque near Ground Zero is (1) a 'bigot' and (2) a 'disgraceful coward,' correct?"

They could just be misinformed by the media or various other pundits. But bigot, coward, or misinformed. Or: un-American. Get me on record all day with this shit if you feel like it, I'm willing to support American values like freedom of religion. Go ahead and write that in your diary if you want.

8/24/2010 6:13:54 PM

Quote :

"Miss USA. FYI, the organization itself has humanitarian goals and charitable alliances that one would think some of you would support. And the position does a lot of good in the country and the world. "

really? like what. tell us quick. no peeking.









[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 6:18 PM. Reason : ]

8/24/2010 6:14:27 PM

Quote :

"They may "mathematize" their theories, but it's never taken as an absolute way of real world modeling. We don't have ways to model economics (or human behavior in general) with 100% accuracy."

I never said this. Now you're shifting the argument to suit your low level of comprehension and I refuse to go with it. No statistical model is confident within 100% accuracy. Not using real-world data.

Quote :

"I'm extremely curious how statistical analysis would answer the question of whether or not we should build a mosque near ground zero. Feel free to fire off some more insults when you inevitably draw a blank, though."

Pretty sure common-sense should settle this one.

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 6:15 PM. Reason : .]

8/24/2010 6:14:57 PM

^^ I know the USO--I've personally benefited from this. But I don't carry that shit around in my head.

http://www.missuniverse.com/missusa/charities/index

http://www.missuniverse.com/missusa/info/faq

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 6:19 PM. Reason : ^ Answer my question. And you shift the argument continually. ]

8/24/2010 6:17:24 PM

actually, Miss USA doesn't very do much at all. 3 charitable alliances: two for breast cancer plus the USO.

yeah, i'm a bit underwhelmed.

mostly, i think, their contestants and winners just get caught stripping or some other scandal.



seriously: http://www.google.com/search?q=miss+usa+humanitarian

except for the single link to charities on their own website, theres nothing there.. it's all irrelevant "hits"





[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 6:22 PM. Reason : ]

8/24/2010 6:19:40 PM

I did answer your question, read above.

(1) Bigot
(2) Coward
(3) Uninformed
(4) Unamerican

Any union works

8/24/2010 6:20:24 PM

Quote :

"Answer the question."

Can't you make an argument without using this fallacy? Stop excluding the middle.

Quote :

"No, she was named by Americans to represent the USA."

You could say the same thing about the Leader of the KKK. The fact is that ITS A FUCKING BEAUTY CONTEST. She's picked to represent america as the winner of a beauty contest. (oh and I didn't spell america wrong)

Quote :

"We don't have ways to model economics (or human behavior in general) with 100% accuracy."

But we can model economics to a degree of accuracy, even more so on the aggregate. This is why we have economics.

8/24/2010 6:26:07 PM

Quote :

"I never said this. Now you're shifting the argument to suit your low level of comprehension and I refuse to go with it. No statistical model is confident within 100% accuracy. Not using real-world data."

You went on an all out diatribe against political science, and the "soft" sciences, dismissing them as irrelevant. Do you think they are relevant? If you can model everything, why bother with non-mathematical analysis? You should be able to plug everything into a program and figure out the answers. If that's not the case, then what limitations do you think apply to the hard sciences?

The problem is that quantitative analysis cannot be applied to every field of study. Human values are subjective. This goes for just about anything that requires a person to think, "hmm, what am I willing to give up in order to obtain X?" You will never design a calculator that contains enough algorithms to answer that question for every person on earth.

I know that you're not going to engage in a legitimate debate here, but the things you're saying do highlight a common misunderstanding of what technology is and is not capable of. I look forward to advancements that do allow us to create better models, but I know that there will always be outliers, and in many cases, those outliers will mark major turning points in history.

Quote :

"Pretty sure common-sense should settle this one."

Pretty sure you just dodged a question that you aren't willing to answer.

Quote :

"But we can model economics to a degree of accuracy, even more so on the aggregate. This is why we have economics."

You can model a herd of cattle too, but if they're heading towards a cliff and you don't account for it, your calculations will eventually be way off.

8/24/2010 6:43:57 PM

Quote :

"You went on an all out diatribe against political science, and the "soft" sciences, dismissing them as irrelevant. Do you think they are relevant? If you can model everything, why bother with non-mathematical analysis? You should be able to plug everything into a program and figure out the answers. If that's not the case, then what limitations do you think apply to the hard sciences?"

They're not irrelevant, but as they improve their methods they will move toward quantitative analyses. Mathematization is the final step of rigor in any science and yes, "soft" scientists want it. It's an ideal and a goal to move toward. Plenty of social scientists use quantitative methods. If you don't know this, then open a journal.

Quote :

"The problem is that quantitative analysis cannot be applied to every field of study. Human values are subjective. This goes for just about anything that requires a person to think, "hmm, what am I willing to give up in order to obtain X?" You will never design a calculator that contains enough algorithms to answer that question for every person on earth."

Human values are subjective, but given a set of values, the optimal set of actions are not. Determining these requires causal knowledge of the world, which is gained through careful mathematical and empirical analysis.

Quote :

"I know that you're not going to engage in a legitimate debate here, but the things you're saying do highlight a common misunderstanding of what technology is and is not capable of. I look forward to advancements that do allow us to create better models, but I know that there will always be outliers, and in many cases, those outliers will mark major turning points in history"

I have no idea what you're on about. Just because you're ignorant about both quantitative methods in science and the history of those methods doesn't mean there's not a strong tradition out there, accomplishing the things you say are "impossible". Good thing people learn things instead of listening to the ignorant.

Quote :

"You can model a herd of cattle too, but if they're heading towards a cliff and you don't account for it, your calculations will eventually be way off."

Oh boy, we'd better give up now. Our models might make incorrect predictions! Hahaha.

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 7:00 PM. Reason : .]

8/24/2010 6:59:13 PM

Quote :

"You went on an all out diatribe against political science, and the "soft" sciences, dismissing them as irrelevant. Do you think they are relevant? If you can model everything, why bother with non-mathematical analysis?"

Just because science doesn't have all the answers right now does not mean that soft sciences have the others.

Quote :

"Human values are subjective."

Are they?

Quote :

"You can model a herd of cattle too, but if they're heading towards a cliff and you don't account for it, your calculations will eventually be way off."

I know you think you're just arguing against my branch of economics, but you're not, you're arguing against all economics as they all attempt to predict aggregate human behavior.

8/24/2010 7:04:16 PM

Not like this shit matters, but still:

Quote :

"CNN: So, you represent even more than the Muslim Americans, is that how you feel? Fakih: I feel more Arab-American is the more correct name CNN: With no religion attached? Fakih: Religion does not identify me, I would like to say that. My family is more of a spiritual family rather than religious. We’ve never been religious, we’ve been never known to be religious, and on top of everything, we celebrate Christmas, I went to a Christian high school. We are Muslim, however, we appreciate and admire all faiths."

Even without the above, it is plainly obvious that she is a purely nominal Muslim. So yeah, she is not a good Muslim at all. It is just a label for her because of birth, doesn't define or identify her in any fashion.

8/24/2010 9:15:30 PM

AHA, this thread is funny.

Some people are kinda having an interesting argument.

And hooksaw is rambling about Miss USA.



BobbyDigital, good call on the Daily Show clip. Unbelievable stuff!

8/24/2010 9:33:46 PM

Quote :

"And hooksaw is rambling about Miss USA. "

His viagra must be kicking in.

8/24/2010 10:33:50 PM

now that ain't right.

i mean people are always accusing him of making personal attacks.


and if you really think you need viagra when you hit your 40's, we're all in for a rough time sooner than we all like to think.

8/24/2010 10:42:27 PM