Quote :

"Not receiving the maximum amount possible for the land does not equate to paying for it"

That's exactly what it equates to. It's giving you the difference between what you're paying for the land and what you should be paying for the land. The state does give out $1 leases to places that, you know, need a small park, they shouldn't give away 300 acre tracks of land for under market value to cities who could pay for it themselves, don't even need it, and probably won't be able to put a decent park there anyways.

Quote :

"For reference, independent valuations I saw were around $22MM"

No, that's about how much they'd end up paying in todays dollars, but that's no where close to the market value. It's worth between 75-100 million in today's dollars, meanwhile Raleigh is going to pay about 20 millon in today's dollars. The difference between the two is the amount that Bev has been able to again fleece the NC taxpayer for the betterment of Raleigh.

Quote :

"I'm not understanding how the state receiving annual revenue from the city for land that has been operating essentially at a loss for the past 10+ years is exactly a bad deal for the state."

Because it's pennies on the dollar. Pay fair market value, even close, but don't make the state foot more than half of the bill, maybe 3/4, heck even 1/2, but don't pee on my car and tell me it's a free car wash.

[Edited on December 4, 2012 at 4:16 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2012 4:09:17 PM

Quote :

"don't even need it, and probably won't be able to put a decent park there anyways"

Ah so now the true feelings come out.

But please, do tell me how often fair market value comes into play in land transactions between two government agencies.

12/4/2012 4:33:05 PM

The state still owns the land. Think about how much it will be worth in 100 years.

12/4/2012 4:59:25 PM

^Nothing because the world is ending in two weeks.

12/4/2012 5:49:46 PM

Divebar and V11 closing. Most might call it revitalization, I call it the death of rock&roll in Raleigh

Back to house shows I guess

12/4/2012 6:03:45 PM

Quote :

"where close to the market value. It's worth between 75-100 million in today's dollars"

The state valued it around $85MM, independent non-partisan appraisal was around $22MM (i.e. it's worth $22MM, not $75MM-$100MM)

[Edited on December 4, 2012 at 9:46 PM. Reason : Or in another way, "fair market value" is about $22MM]

12/4/2012 9:45:36 PM

^^ yeah I heard that via Joel. That really bums me out

12/4/2012 10:16:30 PM

I live downtown and have always been in this area, I have never even heard of v11

12/4/2012 10:21:26 PM

Quote :

"The state valued it around $85MM, independent non-partisan appraisal was around $22MM (i.e. it's worth $22MM, not $75MM-$100MM)"

I know what you're reading, and I know why you are reading it wrong. The LEASE is valued at $22M which means Raleigh is paying the state $22M. The property value is assessed between 75 and 100 million dollars. I've quoted it below for you to teach yourself how to read.
The Dix property has been appraised as high as $86 million, but a study by the General Assembly’s nonpartisan Fiscal Division and Program Evaluation Division values the lease deal at $22.6 million.

Of course common sense would clear that up for most people, but whatever.

12/4/2012 11:33:47 PM

Stop trolling, Kris.

12/5/2012 12:36:37 AM

I think Volume 11 is over near the Farmer's Market on Lake Wheeler, but I could be thinking of the wrong place.

12/5/2012 1:13:59 AM

Quote :

"I live downtown and have always been in this area, I have never even heard of v11"

Not really downtown, it's between Dawson and Lake Wheeler. Lots of metal shows. I've only been there a couple times, but it sucks it's shutting down. http://volume11tavern.com/

12/5/2012 10:39:59 AM

For some reason I always thought that place was some sort of microbrewery. I have no idea why I assumed that when driving by on my way to the Market

12/5/2012 10:45:36 AM

New convenient store in Oakwood

http://www.newraleigh.com/article/former-rubens-building-becoming-downtown-convenient-store/

12/5/2012 11:16:10 AM

Quote :

"Stop trolling, Kris."

This issue really does upset me. Raleigh and other places in the triangle thinks they deserve non-stop handouts from the state, meanwhile other NC cities like Asheville, Wilmington, Charlotte and Winston Salem have to do stuff for themselves and pay for whatever big new thing Raleigh wants.

[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 11:17 AM. Reason : ]

12/5/2012 11:16:55 AM

Quote :

"meanwhile other NC cities like Asheville, Wilmington, Charlotte and Winston Salem have to do stuff for themselves and pay for whatever big new thing Raleigh wants."

Wat. Did the State of NC not throw a big chunk of money at Charlotte for their light rail system? Does Wilmington not get a crapload of money annually for beach nourishment? Do they also not prop up the film industry in Wilmington by providing millions in tax breaks? I can't speak for Gboro or Asheville since I don't pay much attention to their projects but you can't honestly believe Raleigh is the only metro area with pork barrel spending and subsidies courtesy of the NC legislature.

12/5/2012 11:45:40 AM

Whoa, whoa, whoa. There's no need to bring logic into this debate.

12/5/2012 11:51:15 AM

Kris, you expressed an opinion that was different than one held by the rest of us. That's called trolling. So stop it.

These guys are right. It's our god given right as city dwellers to use tax dollars from the rural poor of this state to fund our wildest ambitions. All the other cities get their entitlement; why shouldn't we?

[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 11:54 AM. Reason : .]

12/5/2012 11:51:29 AM

The state will still own the land as an asset, which means they can sell it later down the road when it is worth even more.

12/5/2012 11:58:28 AM

^^In every post you try and make things personal with stereotypes and extreme demeaning sarcasm about the people you disagree with, and you wonder why everyone calls you a troll?

While I disagree with Kris it's a pretty good discussion and he doesn't resort to that sort of bullshit.

[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 11:59 AM. Reason : .]

12/5/2012 11:59:06 AM

having fun, smc?

12/5/2012 12:03:58 PM

It's a discussion that I started.

12/5/2012 12:10:01 PM

Quote :

"Did the State of NC not throw a big chunk of money at Charlotte for their light rail system?"

They are for the planned extension, but the light rail was paid by a Charlotte tax and a grant from the federal government. Raleigh could have done something similar and bought a smaller part of the land, made that into a park, and if it worked well the state would probably be happy to help them out, but nobody in Raleigh wanted to do that because WE WANT A BIG PARK.

Quote :

"Do they also not prop up the film industry in Wilmington by providing millions in tax breaks?"

That seems to have garnered the state more tax dollars, a unneccesarily big park seems unlikely to do that.

Quote :

"you can't honestly believe Raleigh is the only metro area with pork barrel spending and subsidies courtesy of the NC legislature."

No, but it is the one with the most.

Quote :

"The state will still own the land as an asset, which means they can sell it later down the road when it is worth even more."

They could lease it for market value and still do that.

12/5/2012 1:05:29 PM

Quote :

"No, but it is the one with the most"

Well, that kinda makes sense, since it is the capital of the State, and by far the 2nd largest city.

12/5/2012 1:07:30 PM

What's happened to all the Dix Hill patients?

12/5/2012 1:16:10 PM

A fate worse than death. Goldsboro.

12/5/2012 1:17:54 PM

I think it would be interesting to see a breakdown of how much money each county receives from the state for various projects. I would think something like that would have to exist. So far I've just found this: http://www.osbm.state.nc.us/new_content/Citizen_Guide_to_Budget.pdf

12/5/2012 1:19:18 PM

*shudders*

Was there any deinstitutionalization involved, or was it a 1 to 1 tranfer of beds? I can't seem to find out.

12/5/2012 1:20:24 PM

Most of them got transferred to the new hospital complex in Butner, which isn't as bad as Goldsboro I suppose Others were transferred to one in Goldsboro and Morganton. Dorothea Dix has just been doing outpatient treatment since 2008 I believe. Or maybe it was 2009 I can't remember.

12/5/2012 1:25:26 PM

I was (kind of) right? Haha, I just thought of the worst town I could.

12/5/2012 1:29:57 PM

From what I was able to glean from some...urban exploring in the old Dix buildings, they basically just stopped admitting new patients, and let the numbers peter out semi-naturally.

12/5/2012 1:36:24 PM

Quote :

"I think it would be interesting to see a breakdown of how much money each county receives from the state for various projects. I would think something like that would have to exist. "

I was looking for something like that too earlier. Would be interesting to see.

My guess (based purely on my own speculation) is that it is actually the opposite of what Kris suggests. I would bet that rural areas bring in more state funds than they pay in taxes, whereas urban areas pay more than they receive. I could be totally off; that is based on my own understanding of the political system and the fact that on the national level that is how it plays out.

[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 1:48 PM. Reason : .]

12/5/2012 1:48:11 PM

^ That would be my guess as well. I have a couple of friends that work in various state government departments. I wonder if any of them could point me in the right direction for where to find those numbers.

12/5/2012 1:54:11 PM

Education most likely. Education takes up about half of the state budget and is disproportionately sent to rural areas because they lack the tax base to provide adequate education. I don't have any numbers to back me up, but I definitely learned it in one of my classes this semester.

12/5/2012 1:58:26 PM

Here's an article that just came out, releavant to this discussion, about $25 million being spent on the beaches for dredging: http://www.wral.com/-25-million-spent-to-renourish-nc-beaches/11844829/

12/5/2012 2:14:08 PM

I see that as a more justifiable state expense than NC buying Raleigh a 300 acre park.

[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 4:15 PM. Reason : ]

12/5/2012 4:15:27 PM

If you lease your car to your brother for less than you could get for it by selling it to a stranger, did you buy your brother a car?

12/5/2012 4:17:36 PM

^^well, that's your opinion.

12/5/2012 4:24:48 PM

Quote :

"If you lease your car to your brother for less than you could get for it by selling it to a stranger, did you buy your brother a car?"

If you lease your car to your brother for less than half the amount you could lease it to a stranger, did you take on a good deal of the financial burden of getting your brother a car?
I think your brother should pay a fair market value on the lease of your car, or at least most of the fair market value, and not put getting him a car he doesn't really even need on someone who isn't even going to use the car.

Quote :

"well, that's your opinion."

It sounds like it might be the opinion of the article you posted too:
"Maintenance dredging is usually done every three to five years. The last work was done in 2010. The new effort was moved up because of damage from last year's winter storms."

Cities with an inflated sense of entitlement don't need a huge park every 3-5 years.
Also that money was federal, state, and local, as opposed to your park, which is almost entirely state.

[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 4:33 PM. Reason : ]

12/5/2012 4:32:36 PM

See, this discussion could take place if you weren't saying stupid ass things like this:

Quote :

"Cities with an inflated sense of entitlement don't need a huge park every 3-5 years."

STFU

12/5/2012 4:39:00 PM

Lol seriously when was the last time Raleigh established a 300+ acre park?

12/5/2012 9:55:17 PM

I believe the last was Yates Mill a few years ago. 500 acres.

Or possibly the art museum's park, which was also given more land this week(free gift from the state, no lease). Up to around 200 acres now I think.

Or Lake Wheeler, 800 acres.

The city already has 9,000 acres of parks[according to their Parks & Rec website], not including Umstead(5,500 acres) since it is state land.


[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 10:17 PM. Reason : .]

12/5/2012 10:02:05 PM

Yates Mill is a county park under 200 acres established in 2005. The art museum is state property and I know those trails at the very least have been there since the late 90s because I used to use them a lot in high school, though the state has renovated them. Lake Wheeler has been a park since the 1950s. None of those would classify as happening within the past 3-5 years.

12/5/2012 10:10:03 PM

Nah, it's within a mile of the city limit. It's definitely a Raleigh park. I say so. I don't understand Yates Mill Park, actually. They already had Lake Wheeler just down the road. Seems like it would have been best to save the mill but sell the rest of the land.

Raleigh will consume the rest of Wake County within a decade or two anyway.

That's actually an interesting topic, come to think of it...

What are your opinions on Raleigh taking complete control of the whole county? I assume that's how most major metropolitan areas do it. The city limits are already completely blurred with Garner, Morrisville, Knightdale and the "Town" of Cary. Seems like eliminating those local governments would get rid of Cary's many recent peculiarities and controversies, for instance. Once 540 is finished and makes a complete circle, I see no reason why everything contained within shouldn't fall under one, consolidated municipal government.

____________________________________
In downtown news:
Raleigh police are searching for a gang of violent thugs that robbed and beat a couple unconscious on Fayetteville street. The City of Raleigh reminds you that the next time you see preppies dressed in khakis and North Face pullovers you should Lock, Take, Hide, and Cower.



[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 10:41 PM. Reason : .]

12/5/2012 10:15:37 PM

Fuck off, dude.

12/5/2012 11:00:00 PM

I give you three distinct and interesting topics to choose from and discuss(hoping to move past the Dix controversy), and this is how you respond?

[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 11:17 PM. Reason : .]

12/5/2012 11:16:43 PM

Quote :

"I believe the last was Yates Mill a few years ago. 500 acres."

Yates Mill park is actually owned by NC State, NOT Wake County or the City of Raleigh. Its 174 acres, and was purchased in the 60s
http://www.wakegov.com/parks/yatesmill/Pages/information.aspx

[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 11:17 PM. Reason : ]

12/5/2012 11:16:49 PM

That brings up something that I think is at the heart of the Dix issue as well: why do government agencies fight each other and needlessly duplicate services? Why is N.C. State University considered a separate and untouchable kingdom within Raleigh? It's the largest employer, to be sure, but offering it vast concessions and land like you would if attempting to lure a lucrative industry to the city seems counterproductive. Specifically, how would the city and NCSU go about sharing responsibility for the Dorthea Dix property or a property with a public focus like Yates Mill? Why is a university in the Parks and Rec business?

I see lots of different acreage for Yates Mill. This site even says it's 600 acres. But that doesn't really matter.
https://trianglewiki.org/Historic_Yates_Mill_County_Park

What matters is that within three miles there will now be a 300 acre city park, a 174 acre university park, and an 800 acre county park. All with independent backers, fundraisers, and maintenance. Seems a little silly to me. You must understand how crazy and wasteful this must appear to a taxpayer that will never visit any of the three?

Here's a link to the story about the Raleigh Preppy Posse, by the way.
http://www.wral.com/five-wanted-in-connection-with-fayetteville-street-assault/11847419/

[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 11:30 PM. Reason : ,]

12/5/2012 11:22:18 PM

Quote :

"understand how crazy and wasteful this must appear to a taxpayer that will never visit any of the three?"

I think rebuilding NC12 constantly the way they do is crazy and wasteful but I also recognize that tax dollars are not always going to be spent on projects that directly benefit me. What should really irk people is pork such as in 2006 I think it was Johnson and Wales receiving $2 million in state funding for no discernible reason other than Rep. Jim Black promising them the money while campaigning.

12/5/2012 11:50:13 PM

I see your point, but perhaps a better example would be if they were building three separate, parallel highways along NC 12.

12/5/2012 11:53:53 PM