lol i was just wondering your take... i like mine ...
but they're both the same scope and i paid some dollar bucks for them

10/12/2012 10:30:33 AM

my take is it depends on what i'm gonna do with the rifle. i have a $30 scope that serves me well. I've had $150 scopes that i wasn't crazy about. I recently replaced a $700+ scope with a scope that retails for half that and i'm pleased. optics are weird.

10/12/2012 11:45:23 AM

yeah i have 2 leupold 4.5-14x40s mark 4s

one on the .338 and one was on my .50 i just sold.

10/12/2012 11:47:42 AM

Nikon makes pretty good midrange stuff.

A $2k scope is often no better than a $1k scope. A $1k scope is leaps and bounds above a $200 scope.

10/12/2012 5:12:38 PM

What would you say are the factors that make one scope so much better than another given same size/magnification? Hold zero? Clarity? Toughness?

10/12/2012 5:57:30 PM

E all of the above

10/12/2012 6:08:40 PM

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 10:12 PM. Reason : ar rear sight issue, figured it out]

10/12/2012 9:55:45 PM

Quote :

"What would you say are the factors that make one scope so much better than another given same size/magnification? Hold zero? Clarity? Toughness?"

In addition to those factors there's:

repeatability first and foremost. That's not just the ability to hold zero. The ultimate test is to check its tracking by zeroing the scope, adjust poi a set amount to the right and shooting a group to see if the real poi matches the adjustment. After that, adjust it that same amount but down and check again. Third, do the same thing to the left then back up. In the end if you and the rifle are capable then you should end up with four equally spaced groups. If a scope can't do that then it's no good for any shooting where you intend to make scope adjustments. If it can still hold a zero but the tracking sucks then put it on a deer gun and call it good. If the scope is variable power it should also hold the same zero at all magnifications. Lesser scopes will often shift poi in a circle around the original zero when used at different magnifications (this is why fixed scopes are favored by many).

Light transmission can be a factor, especially for some hunters. Light transmission is dependent on quality coatings and good lens quality and alignment. Some people make up for poor quality by getting bigger objectives to gather more light. I don't let light transmission weigh much in my own purchases. If you have good quality then good light transmission naturally comes with it.

clarity is always a funny thing to discuss with people. There's more to clarity than displaying a sharp line between black and white. I've had someone try to convince me their $160 Nikon is more clear than any Leupold because that's how they all look at the range. What the idiot didn't know is centerfire leupolds are set parallax free at 150 yards while Nikons are set to 100 yards; you simply can't compare how "in focus" the image looks between the two brands unless the particular scopes have parallax adjustment.

To me, the property of clarity is almost not worth talking about. Clear simply means the glass is free of defects, which is something you find in almost any scope above $120 or so. What people think of as clarity can be broken down into other properties, like:

-distortion - Glass with poor geometry will show distortion, usually towards the outside edge (center to edge distortion). There can also be rings of distortion due to bad geometry. Cheap scopes, particularly variable or A/O ones, may also show distortion in a pie shaped piece of the image that's the result of poor glass alignment.

-lens flare - basically bad light reflections that cause the image to look washed out.

-chromatic abberation - looks like you have multiple images that are different color and don't line up

-depth of field, which is...well...how deep the "in focus" field looks. This is dependent on a few properties, but I guess Leupold uses a farther parallax adjustment to increase the depth of field. Greater depth of field means your eye strains less and it's easier to find stuff.

-vignetting - the stupid fade to black edges of instagram pics. Good scopes have little or no vignetting.

I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of other properties. All of these things that contribute to "clarity" are dependent on the geometry of the glass, how the lenses line up, and the quality of the coatings, so I guess those are the rest of my answer.

IMO to get a decent scope for big game hunting you need to spend around $200 and the point of diminishing returns is probably around $350. For target shooting for fun you're looking at around $300+ to get parallax adjustment with decent glass and coatings. For competition/sniper stuff where you're making a lot of adjustments you probably need to be looking at the $800+ range. Most of that money in expensive scopes goes towards building beefy yet precise adjustment systems. Those SS scopes are popular in the budget tactical long range crowd because they have an excellent reputation for tracking.

[Edited on October 13, 2012 at 3:09 AM. Reason : ]

10/13/2012 2:57:23 AM

Great information, thanks for taking the time to write all that out. All of that makes a lot a sense.

10/13/2012 11:24:20 AM

If you want to spend money, and you're going to shoot past 500m, you can't go wrong with a Bushnell HDMR and Horus reticle.

Nobody needs 1/4 minute adjustments, that's too fine for most people's shooting. I'd recommend a first focal plane scope to most folks, if you want to crank around on the power. If you shoot always at full power, get a second focal plane scope and save some money.

10/13/2012 11:46:14 AM

Quote :

"Nobody needs 1/4 minute adjustments, that's too fine for most people's shooting."

they're great for hunting

[Edited on October 13, 2012 at 12:34 PM. Reason : or pretty much any shooting where you don't turn the knobs after you zero]

10/13/2012 12:33:27 PM

Essentially a point-blank style reticle.

10/13/2012 12:58:10 PM

nothing wrong with the MPBR method, especially when you've got buck fever

10/13/2012 1:47:13 PM

You're correct.

10/13/2012 1:53:45 PM

Shot the mosin today and enjoyed being able to hit a steel plate 170 yards away. Got it dialed in and it's ready to go!

Saw this and thought it was interesing.

This is a .40 round I shot that my wife found in the berm:







This is the other side of the .40 round, where another .40 hit it

10/13/2012 5:56:08 PM

where do you shoot? outdoors?

where's a good place to shoot outdoors? i was going to look into drake's landing. seems like the closest place.

10/13/2012 7:58:40 PM

Looking at getting a buddies Benelli Nova Tactical. Shot less than 100 rds through it. Any ideas on a fair price?

Really would rather have a supernova so I can add a pistol grip, but if I can get it for a song I will settle..

10/13/2012 11:55:51 PM

^^Drake's landing is nice. 200 yard rifle range, next to a 50yd range. The downside is it's kind of pricey.

The ideal setup is to find a friend with farmland.

10/14/2012 5:32:26 PM

Quote :

"where do you shoot? outdoors? "

Yes, outdoors. i know a guy with some land, though I think that's about to change

10/14/2012 9:01:18 PM

got a problem, curious to see if you guys know what could have happened

was out at the farm Friday putting about 1200 rounds downrange between several of my guns, and had a problem with my Glock 32 for the first time. Was teaching the gf how to shoot and between the two of us probably put about 200-250 rounds of some Georgia Arms .357sig through it.

I've never had so much as a hiccup with the G32 until I started shooting the GA stuff. I'd get a FTF once every 40 rounds or so, chalked it up to crappy QC with their reloading (get what you pay for, I guess). However, the FTFs started drastically increasing in frequency during this session; at first I thought it was something in the way she was shooting and saw the silver lining in her learning to develop tap/rack clearing. But it got to the point that it was happening 3-4 times per 13rnd magazine. At that point I retired the glock til I could take a closer look at it.

After the session we were picking up whatever brass we could still find and came across this:



I know a little splitting at the neck of reloaded brass isn't anything to cry about but this sucker is split damn near to the bottom. A cursory field strip with a bright light didn't turn up anything out of the ordinary, though there seems to be some gouging in the mag seat plastic.

Ideas? Any of you glock guys want to take a crack at it before I take it to a shop?

[Edited on October 14, 2012 at 10:09 PM. Reason : sfaasdf]

10/14/2012 10:04:36 PM

I don't know. I could throw you a few scenarios that may have cause that, but nothing certain. Sorry buddy

I'm glad you and your g/f are okay though. I'd be extremely pissed if I saw that happen to me.

You have a stock barrel, right?

On an unrelated note, I came in here to say I've got 1911 fever. I shot one like a beast yesterday and I can't shake this feeling of how awesome it was. So smooth, so accurate. I want need one.



[Edited on October 14, 2012 at 10:14 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on October 14, 2012 at 10:14 PM. Reason : .]

10/14/2012 10:13:16 PM

yeah, all stock. And she learned quick! I'm actually not terrified to see a firearm in her hands anymore!!

+1 on the 1911, mine has spoiled me. This thing is a dream to shoot. Get one soon and we'll go out and compare notes


on another note, we got some video of me shooting that pistol-grip 12ga from the hip at a spot on a hanging branch about 25' away, proving to you naysayers that I can hit almost anything the first time and every time from the hip


[Edited on October 14, 2012 at 10:21 PM. Reason : might upload for the lols]

10/14/2012 10:20:29 PM

Quote :

"I know a little splitting at the neck of reloaded brass isn't anything to cry about"

If I ever saw this, I wouldn't reuse the brass. I could just be paranoid, but if there is a little crack or splitting, that brass is done IMO. If the brass has this before being shot, I wouldn't use it. If it's fine before being shot, but not after, I'd try to diagnose what is causing it. Maybe the feed ramp or the metal magazine "guides"/"plates" causing the crack/nick. IDK

[Edited on October 14, 2012 at 10:43 PM. Reason : .]

10/14/2012 10:38:15 PM

oh, yeah i definitely wouldn't put a split cartridge into any firearm. I meant that a small crack at the neck for known reloads after firing isn't a big deal

10/14/2012 10:41:31 PM

there's nothing wrong with the gun. that's how pistol brass usually fails after some reloads. it's because the resizing process work-hardens the brass. it becomes more brittle and cracks. happens faster with bottleneck cases. even faster with non-fully-supported chambers i.e. glocks.

if you don't want split necks, don't shoot reloads.

yes, the one in your pic is more severe than usual, but it's nothing to worry about.

[Edited on October 14, 2012 at 10:46 PM. Reason : daf]

10/14/2012 10:45:32 PM

cool, that's good to hear


couldn't care less about split brass as long as I'm not saving it (I generally only worry about saving brass I've bought new or know the history of)

[Edited on October 14, 2012 at 10:57 PM. Reason : asdfa]

10/14/2012 10:56:27 PM

why not put a .40 barrel in it for practice?

10/14/2012 11:01:31 PM

Wanted to get well acquainted with the .357sig round first, but yeah that's in the future. Plan on picking up both a .40 barrel and a 9mm barrel and mag, the latter more of a "last resort" for when, you know, we're all hunting each other for ammo and squirrel jerky

10/14/2012 11:17:36 PM

I love my KKM barrel. A bit pricier, but when my barrel didn't drop in like they claimed, they machined it to fit my slide for free.

Lone Wolfs are the cheaper and work with equal reliability from my experience as well. I would recommend these also without hesitation.

I like that you can swap the calibers so easily.

10/15/2012 12:37:32 AM

if yall have a 1911 shootathon near raleigh lemme know... i'll go!

10/15/2012 8:21:08 AM

facepalm

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/shotgun-wedding-buy-engagement-ring-free-gun-184529691.html

Shotgun wedding: Buy an engagement ring, get a free gun
A jewelry store in North Liberty, Iowa, is offering a most unusual deal—a free hunting rifle to customers who purchase an engagement ring.
"Diamonds are a girl's best friend," Jewelry by Harold owner Harold van Beek told local ABC affiliate KCRG. "So say: I'm hunting deer, and here is a diamond ring, dear."
The official promotion rules require a customer to spend at least $1,999 on an engagement ring purchased before October 31, 2012. The customer will then receive a voucher for a Remington 870 hunting rifle that can be redeemed at local retailer Fin and Feather. A standard Remington 870 can typically be purchased for under $500, though there are more expensive options available, including those with accessories such as scopes. The Remington 870 is typically used for hunting and sport shooting but is also kept by some people as a means of home defense. The 870 is also popular with military and police organizations around the world. In the U.S. it is employed by the military, Secret Service, Coast Guard, Border Patrol, IRS and even the Department of Education.
"We hope people know about the crazy jeweler in North Liberty that does crazy things," van Beek said, preempting any criticism over the unusual offering.
"Fun is more important than anything else, we try to put some fun in it," he said, admitting that he originally got the idea from a jeweler in Georgia who had previously offered a similar promotion.
There are a few legal restrictions on the promotion. Anyone hoping to obtain one of the vouchers must be eligible under Iowa law to be a gun owner. Iowa is a "shall-issue" state, meaning gun owners must obtain a permit issued from a local sheriff's department and must complete a gun safety course.
Convicted felons and drug addicts are reportedly excluded from the offer.



tl;dr
Rifle =/= Shotgun

10/16/2012 11:27:36 PM

Sigh, I am sure there was just a run on AR15 parts after Obamas comment in the debate. Poor timing for me to want a new upper (will have the money saved up right after the election). Luckily the impulse buyers are probably not looking at Ranier or Noveske SPR uppers in the $1200+ range.

10/16/2012 11:52:00 PM

^yeah I'm waiting on the Tavor next year. Hopefully this douche gets voted out of office though.

10/17/2012 9:40:27 AM

doesn't make any difference. romney supported an AWB in massachusetts.

10/17/2012 9:42:22 AM

That argument is as bad as the one about Obamacare being modeled after what Romney did in Massachusetts.

As if Massachusetts is a good proxy for the rest of the country.

What the media portrays as flip-flopping Romney has constantly countered as inapplicable because things that are appropriate for Massachusetts aren't appropriate at a national level.

Maybe realistic is a better word than appropriate.

Fact of the matter is, what do you expect from a red governor in one of the bluest states? Once he's free from them why should he tow their line? I understand if you're upset politicians don't have principles anymore, but they haven't for over 20 years.

10/17/2012 10:15:03 AM

I definitely agree that Romney is no friend of gun rights but I do feel that there is less of a chance for anti gun laws with him as president rather than a second term Obama. I am still not voting for either because I think they both are clowns. When Obama got elected last time it was a long time before AR parts became readily available and I just hope we don't have to deal with that crap again.

Found a guy locally who can get me a Noveske SBR upper at the price listed on Noveskes website so I might go put a deposit on it this weekend just to avoid this mess. Might even get a Noveske stripped lower so I can make it a full Noveske gun later on. I realize that could be considered doing exactly what I am complaining about but I am just upping my schedule by a few weeks

10/17/2012 10:15:06 AM

^^^^^The real lulz is that they used Wiki to get a list of agencies using the 870.

10/17/2012 11:05:21 AM

Quote :

"but they haven't for over 20 years."

there are a handful with principles. i'll be voting for one of them for president.

10/17/2012 11:40:38 AM

I'm voting lib again... if for no other reason the the hope of getting three D bags to choose from.

10/17/2012 11:44:52 AM

Quote :

"When Obama got elected last time it was a long time before AR parts became readily available and I just hope we don't have to deal with that crap again. "

happened because of:

Quote :

"I do feel that there is less of a chance for anti gun laws with him as president rather than a second term Obama."

Quote :

"That argument is as bad as the one about Obamacare being modeled after what Romney did in Massachusetts. As if Massachusetts is a good proxy for the rest of the country. What the media portrays as flip-flopping Romney has constantly countered as inapplicable because things that are appropriate for Massachusetts aren't appropriate at a national level."

happened because of fear-mongering dumb people

10/17/2012 12:09:53 PM

that's all there are anymore.

10/17/2012 12:27:57 PM

^^ What's your point? Won't stop it from happening again.

[Edited on October 17, 2012 at 12:29 PM. Reason : A]

10/17/2012 12:28:42 PM

Just signed up for a two day shooting around vehicles class.
I've done about 4 hours of training on this so far, but going to add about 20 more in November.
I looking forward to trying out some of my new equipment.

10/17/2012 7:00:41 PM

Nice, that sounds like a lot of fun. What guns do you use and how many rounds?

10/17/2012 7:03:09 PM

Quote :

"Found a guy locally who can get me a Noveske SBR upper at the price listed on Noveskes website so I might go put a deposit on it this weekend just to avoid this mess. Might even get a Noveske stripped lower so I can make it a full Noveske gun later on. I realize that could be considered doing exactly what I am complaining about but I am just upping my schedule by a few weeks "

I ordered my Noveske from Rainier. They shipped it same day and I got it 2 days later, I was impressed.

[Edited on October 17, 2012 at 11:03 PM. Reason : quote]

10/17/2012 11:02:16 PM

I would do the same but they don't have the one I want

10/17/2012 11:05:50 PM

Was anyone glad to hear Obama say most crimes were commited with cheap handguns and that underlying social issues were the real problem? That's the first time I've ever heard a politician say something that actually made sense concerning guns used in crimes.

10/18/2012 3:16:31 AM

I liked it even better when Romney said there will be no additional legislation for gun control

10/18/2012 9:15:32 AM

LOL

10/18/2012 9:19:17 AM

I liked it even better when nobody was talking and Candy Crowley was just sitting there thinking of jelly-filled bearclaws.

10/18/2012 10:26:41 AM