Quote :

"So the Palestinians actually acting as human shields don't deserve it? Or are you saying that no one is actually acting as a human shield or trying to be a martyr. Because I'm pretty sure there are confirmed reports that Hamas is actually encouraging people to go contribute to the body count so Hamas can get better press. "

no one is climbing onto roofs to act as martyrs, people are being "human shields" by hiding in their homes and if you think that means that they deserve to die you are a mouth-breathing shit-stain

i think your confusion is that you misunderstand the reporting. when people report that Hamas is using human shields it means that Hamas moves into a civilian area to hide behind civilians. It's an action by Hamas, civilians are not moving to Hamas to protect them. You have repeatedly stated or implied that civilians are actively moving to protect Hamas, and that's not true. There are maybe a few cases of true martyrs but those are not normal, most civilians are trying to seek shelter and are innocent. Blaming these civilians and sentencing them to death because of the actions of Hamas is immoral and disgusting.

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 9:51 AM. Reason : .]

7/24/2014 9:38:49 AM

Quote :

"Or are you saying that no one is actually acting as a human shield or trying to be a martyr. "

I'm sure there are some that are doing this. But I feel safe in saying that the majority aren't. They're common people, trying to live a normal life and raise their family. And a lot of them are women, children and infants. Knowing that, how can you keep repeating "But they're acting as human shields, it's justified!"?

7/24/2014 9:48:31 AM

Dude come on, you're smart enough to know I don't literally mean they're hanging out on a rooftop waiting to die. And name calling? Really? We're just hanging out having a discussion about Israel and Gaza. Or are you just trolling at this point?

And why do you think everyone who has died was just hiding in their home with their family? Why is it when there are literal reports of Hamas encouraging martyrdom, you dismiss it and claim all the "human shields" are just scared families hiding?

7/24/2014 9:56:45 AM

Yeah, the name-calling is unnecessary. But it is frustrating that you keep saying "There are literally reports of Hamas encouraging martyrdom". I'm sure there are. That doesn't mean that any significant number of those being killed are actually traveling and staying in buildings with the intention of being blown-up.

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 10:12 AM. Reason : ]

7/24/2014 10:04:51 AM

Quote :

"And why do you think everyone who has died was just hiding in their home with their family? Why is it when there are literal reports of Hamas encouraging martyrdom, you dismiss it and claim all the "human shields" are just scared families hiding?"

why does it matter what Hamas is encouraging? if Hamas says "every citizen of this nation, we encourage you to kill Israelis" does that suddenly make every citizen guilty of murder or attempted murder? No, that's ridiculous. Hamas is a terrorist organization, they say all kinds of terrible shit.

And I'm not claiming that they are all hiding in their homes, many are in the streets or shelters or schools or hospitals, etc... It's not their fault if Hamas takes over a vacant building nearby to launch rockets, that means that Hamas is using them as human shields but does not mean that they are guilty for being human shields. You can't punish civilians for actions that Hamas takes that they often don't even know about.

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 10:18 AM. Reason : .]

7/24/2014 10:14:02 AM

Quote :

"why does it matter what Hamas is encouraging?"

Because Hamas is more than just a terrorist organization. It's easy for us to classify them as such given their history, but they're the democratically elected majority ruling party in Gaza. People tend to listen to the government they elected.

If Israel warns Gazans living in an area that they're going to bomb a bunch of stuff and that it'd be a good idea to leave, and Hamas tells the people not to flee and to stay where they are, with whom does the fault lay when all the people die because they stayed in their homes?

7/24/2014 11:15:12 AM

holy shit man. how can you not understand that many don't have the option of "fleeing"? many have (large) families that are young or elderly, are poor and have to continue doing whatever they do to make money, there's nowhere to flee to... and no guarantee that the building they flee to won't be demolished the next day.

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 11:23 AM. Reason : ]

7/24/2014 11:20:15 AM

^^ yeah, because those 4 kids on the beach were meat shields for a Hamas super weapon!!!11

7/24/2014 11:28:27 AM

so why didnt the palestinians throw out hamas?

why arent they helping israel throw out hamas?

if hamas is the source of everyone woes like the majority of this thread claims?

oh wait thats not true-

back to my original point (punish israel no matter what, they suck for some reason).

fucking jews.

7/24/2014 11:30:53 AM

Some people really despise and want to throw out the Obama administration.

Why don't they go ahead and impeach Obama and throw his administration out?

Why aren't they helping Putin or Kim Jong Sun defeat the Obama administration?

You're really trying to fit this into a black and white narrative.

I mean, what are you suggesting? That the common poor Palestinian family who's trying to live a normal live while missiles are raining down on them should form a resistance army and overthrow Hamas?

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 11:37 AM. Reason : ]

7/24/2014 11:37:15 AM

your last sentence yes exactly

it would be much more likely and possible to happen in a place like gaza

not so much the US versus obama

7/24/2014 11:40:05 AM

Quote :

"holy shit man. how can you not understand that many don't have the option of "fleeing"? many have (large) families that are young or elderly, are poor and have to continue doing whatever they do to make money, there's nowhere to flee to... and no guarantee that the building they flee to won't be demolished the next day."

Holy shit dude. How do you not understand that I don't literally mean leave Gaza? No, they can't leave Gaza, but movement within Gaza is still entirely possible and is still taking place right now. No car necessary, you can probably walk from one side of Gaza to the other in a day.

And no, I'm not arguing there is a "safe" place in Gaza. But safety in this context is relative, and I will argue that some places are probably safer than others. For example, if Israel tells my neighborhood, "You're gonna get bombed", I would assume that getting myself to an area of Gaza that Israel hasn't explicitly warned of bombing might increase my chances of living another 24 hours.

Or are you arguing that attempting self preservation at this point is futile and that Gazans should just sit there and wait to see if their number comes up?

7/24/2014 11:52:32 AM

http://www.truthrevolt.org/israel-revolt/howard-stern-gives-impassioned-defense-israel#.U9EQK9CW_-4.twitter

weird.

7/24/2014 11:57:56 AM

Quote :

"Or are you arguing that attempting self preservation at this point is futile and that Gazans should just sit there and wait to see if their number comes up?"

I'm saying most don't have an option to do anything else. They can't just pick up their entire family and move somewhere on a moments notice. And they have nowhere to go to. Sure, if Israel tells them "you better leave this apartment now, we're bombing it in an hour", then they should get the hell out of there. But I doubt this happens very frequently. And again, many wouldn't have a place to bring their family of young kids and elderly parents. And they'd have to leave their job or however they're making what little money they're making.

7/24/2014 12:08:03 PM

Sayer is living in his own reality

7/24/2014 12:13:54 PM

no i'm just arguing against you guys because this place is really boring when everyone agrees with each other

and playing devils advocate is fun

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 12:16 PM. Reason : the debil!]

7/24/2014 12:15:33 PM

and there is his acknowledgment that he lost this one

7/24/2014 12:23:36 PM

you're hilarious

7/24/2014 12:27:14 PM

Palestinian casualties are at over 750 dead, and another 4,500 injured, according to aljazeera in 17 days of bombing. The number killed will probably be over 1,000 by this weekend.

7/24/2014 2:27:52 PM

A UN shelter in Gaza was hit killing women, children and UN workers. Israel is saying that it might have been an errant Hamas rocket.

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 2:57 PM. Reason : ]

7/24/2014 2:39:06 PM

Most Israelis would prefer a much more precise operation than what's been happening so far and are passed off at their own government for the casualty count on the other side. If there was an election held today, no way Netanyahu stays in power. His Likud party had been partnered with Yisrael Beiteinu but they recently split and now his party only has the majority by 1 seat.

The action on the ground, which has contributed to most of the Israeli casualties, is a better move as far as precision. It gives soldiers the opportunity to get closer to their targets and take out weapons capabilities without creating large blast zones. There's more reports now of locating weapon storage and seizing as opposed to blasting. However, because there is a ground operation, anti-Israel sentiment has turned to calling it an invasion and a land grab.

7/24/2014 2:57:45 PM

The Likud party is the right wing nationalist party of Israel (led by Netanyahu). They are not secular. They have formally recognized the "right of settlements" in the west bank and Gaza, and have often refused to acknowledge the right of an independent Palestinian state.


While they may be in charge, it would be ridiculous to hold all Israelis responsible for the actions of this government. Likewise, it is ridiculous to hold all Palestinians responsible for the actions of Hamas. The left in Israel is very vocal about their opposition to this offensive.

But a serious question for you, bd: do you seriously see Israel ever relinquishing control of Gaza or the West Bank? They've occupied those territories for decades. And the Likud party, (and Netanyahu in particular) have openly stated their desires for a "greater Israel," and defined the current Israeli borders as "indefensible." How exactly do you interpret those remarks?

This is from the Likud charter, straight from Wikipedia. It's hard to believe they've strayed from this position considering current events:

Quote :

"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."

Seriously, how can you defend this shit? You CONSTANTLY refer to the Hamas charter to validate Israel's offensives. But the current government in charge in Israel is just as open about their desires to expand their borders.

[Edited on July 24, 2014 at 5:11 PM. Reason : ]

7/24/2014 5:07:10 PM

Israel is a racist, classist, discriminating, apartheid scum of a state, there is no denying that.

7/24/2014 5:16:36 PM

^^I'm still getting up to speed with this situation, if that wasn't already clear. Probably shouldn't have joined in with my opinion. I had no idea Israel's party in power held those views, which are indeed not very unlike Hamas' as far as their desire for conquest. I'm surprised this wasn't brought up earlier.

7/24/2014 5:54:40 PM

i didn't realize that the zionist goals of the current leadership were not common knowledge

7/24/2014 7:56:49 PM

Here's the Israeli political breakdown of the last 20 years:

In the early 90's Yitzhak Rabin (Labor Party) made more effort towards a peace plan than anyone thought was possible at the time, but was assassinated by an Israeli who didn't agree.

Netanyahu (Likud) replace him and ruined the whole deal (not that many people trusted Arafat to follow through on his end, but at the time he was at least given a chance).

Then was Ehud Barak (Labor) who also made a bigger effort for peace, but he resigned during a rise in violence and was replaced by Ariel Sharon (Likud).

Sharon was a lot like Netanyahu, but something changed and he left the conservatives and founded the much more moderate Kadima party, and pulled every Jew out of the Gaza settlements and pushed for Palestine to have autonomous elections. That backfired when Hamas was elected and shot hit the fan on both sides. Sharon had a stroke and had to be replaced by Ehud Olmert, also from Kadima, but he finished when the natural term ended.

Then Netanyahu came back (following a trend of Israelis voting more conservatively during times of heightened violence in the countries around them, and that's what was happening in 2008-2009).

Likud barely beat out Yesh Atid, a brand new party formed just before the last election. My political leanings are more closely aligned with them than any other party. Their platform caters to the more secular middle-class citizens, and promotes equality amongst all citizens and a two state solution. Likud has 20 seats in Parliament, Yesh Atid has 19.

7/24/2014 9:00:33 PM

Aside from the 700 dead and 4,000 injured, there is the extensive destruction of schools, mosques, and hospitals.

Quote :

"Israeli forces have also succeeded in destroying at least 475 houses and 2,644 have been partially damaged. Some 46 schools, 56 mosques and 7 hospitals had also suffered varying degrees of destruction, say Palestinian officials. The Palestinian human rights group Mezan said that 477 homes have been destroyed in targeted hits since July 8, and that 332 people died in their homes as a result of military operations."

If those are not war crimes, I don't know what are.

7/25/2014 12:01:11 AM

^^ so what I wanna know is what exactly did the peace talks between Clinton & Arafat & Rabin accomplish? The PLO is almost unanimously regarded as a terrorist organization to the western world yet it seems like they were more willing to bargain back then, perhaps due to Arafat being a more reliable leader or Israel having less belligerent tendencies

[Edited on July 25, 2014 at 12:41 AM. Reason : ]

7/25/2014 12:40:03 AM

Eh... Arafat used money that was meant for humanitarian aid and used it to pay off the families of suicide bombers. Millions of dollars.

Nevertheless, those peace talks would have likely had a major positive effect on the future of both peoples if it hadn't been for the assassination. Netanyahu wasn't as willing to negotiate with the PLO and things deteriorated from there.

7/25/2014 1:25:15 AM

So.....a US backed ceasefire was not agreed upon, but a 12 hour break may occur. Israel says they will not sponsor any permanent truce that includes an end to the siege of Gaza. Meanwhile, protesters in the West Bank are being fired upon by the IDF, with a few Israeli settlers getting in on the fun.

bdmazur, answer my this question: Do you ever see Israel giving up control of the west bank or Gaza?

[Edited on July 25, 2014 at 6:16 PM. Reason : ]

7/25/2014 6:13:54 PM

thats the whole point of this. keep these areas angry, desperate and unstable that way they will never reach peace. no peace= no palestinian state.

7/26/2014 8:14:14 AM

Quote :

" keep these areas angry, desperate and unstable"

That seems to be Hamas' goal, along with the rest of the Arab world.

^^The protesters in the West Bank weren't just protesting. Hamas called for a "Day of Rage" and they attacked Israeli Police. This was not a peaceful protest with signs and banners.

In case you missed it the other 200 times it's been mentioned, Israel did have a 100% pull-out of Gaza in 2005. That's how a terrorist organization was able to take power into he first place.

Most Israelis want to not be militarized and want a 2-state solution. The settlements are a different issue because while a lot of them are new, some of them have been there for hundreds of years. 2005 was the first time there were no Jews in Gaza since the end of the Babylonian empire.

There's a 12-hour truce on right now, and there are talks happening now to try to extend it. Hamas broke both of the previous 2, so we'll see what happens.

Over 60 entrances to at least 20 tunnels have been discovered, most of which lead right under Israeli communities and kibbutzim. They are each several miles long. So why isn't the world asking...where did the money come from to build all of them? The Palestinian people are suffering so greatly and relying on aid from everywhere else in the world, but Hamas had the resources to build these tunnels. Terrorists imprisoned by Israel have confessed that the tunnels were built for a massacre meant to take place on Rosh Hashanah that would "bring Israel to it's knees."

7/26/2014 12:38:46 PM

And Hamas breaks the ceasefire, again. Just as Israel was discussing extending it.

7/26/2014 4:15:42 PM

Probably not Hamas but Hamas wasn't even responsible for the kidnapping that started this so I guess that doesn't matter


Nations are lining up now pledging millions in aid to Gaza. Israel needs to except Hamas' very reasonable terms.

7/26/2014 6:05:12 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/26/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

IDF broke the ceasefire as well

7/26/2014 6:41:25 PM

Quote :

"Probably not Hamas but"

Bullshit like this is why these threads are insufferable.

Quote :

"Israel needs to except Hamas' very reasonable terms."

It's hilarious how smart you think you are.

7/26/2014 7:24:20 PM

^^I didn't see anything into hat article about IDF action, but they did say they would "act against violations of the ceasefire."

And even though Hamas broke the truce, Israel is still trying to create another ceasefire to give more time for humanitarian support. Hamas is yet to accept it.

[Edited on July 26, 2014 at 9:11 PM. Reason : -]

7/26/2014 9:11:36 PM

Hey look at that, y0willy0 is pretending to be smarter than everyone else while not adding anything to the discussion again. Try harder , Mark.

7/26/2014 9:39:48 PM

So let me get this straight-

You think I have five aliases here, and now you think my name is Mark?

Also:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10992921/Hamas-and-North-Korea-in-secret-arms-deal.html

"Oh thank God, Hamas is so righteous; look they pick the best of friends!"

"But but the US and Zionists are worse than NK!"

7/26/2014 9:42:42 PM

I know your name, you friended a fake Facebook profile that I created after social engineering you

[Edited on July 26, 2014 at 11:09 PM. Reason : too many clues]

7/26/2014 11:02:11 PM

You're psychotic.

Seriously.

Nobody pretends or brags about being a stalker.

Or calls people by made up names.

7/26/2014 11:50:22 PM

Here's the series of events of the last day:

1) Hamas breaks ceasefire
2) Israel offers to extend it
3) Hamas says no
4) Hamas fires 40 rockets into Israel overnight
5) Israel resumes attempts to destroy rocket capabilities
6) Hamas calls for a 24-hour ceasefire

7/27/2014 1:11:18 PM

Why are you so certain that Hamas broke the ceasefire and fired rockets? Anything from Gaza is the action of Hamas?

[Edited on July 27, 2014 at 4:50 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2014 4:26:31 PM

http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/the-most-important-video-about-israel-ever-made

7/27/2014 8:29:31 PM

^...
wow.

That is commendably well done propaganda. Seems ironic he calls out Palestinian media for indoctrinating people against Jews, in a video designed to indoctrinate people against Palestinians.

7/27/2014 10:48:06 PM

Sadly, this has been making the rounds in my FB feed.

[Edited on July 27, 2014 at 10:49 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2014 10:49:18 PM

I saw this one on FB, which has a strikingly similar tone, using some of the exact phrases: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg1IVjnRuXk

Makes me believe Israel (or someone) is coordinating the creation and release of these videos.

[Edited on July 27, 2014 at 11:15 PM. Reason : ]

7/27/2014 11:12:33 PM

They pay students to spread them, I posted a link about it.they also have organized volunteer centers to spread propaganda.

7/28/2014 7:33:15 AM

Sorry I haven't read all of this thread, but how do the Hamas sympathizers explain or legitimize the fact that Hamas includes the destruction of Israel in their charter?

[Edited on July 28, 2014 at 11:07 AM. Reason : b/c wanting the 1967 borders is different from wanting Israel not to exist]

7/28/2014 11:04:26 AM

I don't think there are any Hamas "sympathizers" in this thread, only some Palestinian sympathizers.

Further up on this page the current Israeli regime's "charter" is discussed.

7/28/2014 11:31:45 AM