I fully support the right of an owner to move his team. However, no fucking way a city and its residents should ever foot the bill for a new stadium. You laid out precisely why. It's the same reason no one wants the Olympics anymore. Hell, LA is making an Olympic bid for 2020 or 2024, and these new stadiums are a nice selling point and putting an NFL team there will help mitigate the massive losses, but it still doesn't make a damn bit of sense for the public to be paying for a new facility for a billionaire.

Sucks to be a St. Louis rams fan, but there was nothing they could do.

1/13/2016 3:35:35 AM

Quote :

"Nowhere in that formula is fan support even considered."

A city with a dedicated fan base is more willing to front the money. I'm not saying it's right or how it should be, but a bad/disenfranchised fan base creates much less staying power.

So when I say the Raiders/Rams left because of a shitty fan base, I mean they left because there wasn't enough money to be made.

1/13/2016 4:56:22 AM

Quote :

"No other country has this sort of endemic system in place where cities like Seattle or St. Louis or Cleveland or soon to be Oakland (again) lose their sports franchises like we do in the US."

at least NFL teams don't build their stadiums with slave labor.

1/13/2016 9:19:18 AM

Quote :

"Relocation is bullshit and nobody should support it."

I agree completely that cities/communities should not fund the building of stadiums for privately held businesses, but relocation is not always bullshit. Sometimes it is simply necessary in cases like the Expos in Montreal or eventually Tampa with the Rays.

An owner has a right to take his franchise to a better location if he thinks it will make him more money. Obviously cities dangling new stadiums are the carrots for these moves, but even if the stadiums were on the owner to build, I can see someone moving to a new location to escape an apathetic fan base, generate new revenue streams, get a better TV deal, etc. No different than any other business deciding to relocate or expand in new areas in order to maximize profit.



[Edited on January 13, 2016 at 12:41 PM. Reason : jh]

1/13/2016 12:40:56 PM

I've been reading up on the history of professional football trying to return to L.A. A couple of times it has failed because the community where the stadium would be built didn't want the increased traffic.

1/13/2016 1:01:55 PM

Quote :

"I agree completely that cities/communities should not fund the building of stadiums for privately held businesses"

What if the presence of the privately held business stimulates the economy and job growth in the area so much that public funding of infrastructure is a minimal investment?

Two sides to every coin.

1/13/2016 1:12:37 PM

Quote :

"at least NFL teams don't build their stadiums with slave labor."

Qatar has no business hosting the World Cup. I won't argue that.

Quote :

"Obviously cities dangling new stadiums are the carrots for these moves, but even if the stadiums were on the owner to build, I can see someone moving to a new location to escape an apathetic fan base, generate new revenue streams, get a better TV deal, etc. No different than any other business deciding to relocate or expand in new areas in order to maximize profit."

Riiight, but the argument against relocation is present in your post. Owners don't have to look for more creative ways to generate revenue, because they can simply pit cities against one another and see which one is willing to hand out half a billion dollars upfront. That's a HUGE incentive, and it encourages owners to bypass actual capitalism because they can just charge it to the state, subsidize their biggest expense, and privatize their profits. And it inflates the value of the team, because they're not on the hook for paying for their own overhead. It's a pretty sweet racket if you can get in on it. Totally immoral, but profitable.

Quote :

"What if the presence of the privately held business stimulates the economy and job growth in the area so much that public funding of infrastructure is a minimal investment?"

This argument is held up EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

And there's never any evidence to support the claim. And it's always in the details. Parking and concession revenue for non NFL/NBA/NHL events almost always go to the owners of the anchor tenant (which is bogus). The lease terms are usually only 30 years anyway, so any sustained theoretical economic growth (which is unproven) will fade away once the lease expires. Besides, any economic growth gained from a new stadium comes at the direct expense of the city the team is leaving. Jobs gained in Oklahoma City came at the expense of jobs already in place in Seattle, etc. And any evidence of a ripple effect of economic output surrounding the area is shaky at best.

A better municipal investment would be a museum, public transportation, or some other long-term institution. Not a sports team, because they will fleece you every time. If the public is going to pay for the stadium/arena, then the public should see a return on that investment via ownership and/or revenue from the stadium to pay back the construction and development costs and property value. A look into the details of some of these stadium deals, and prime real-estate is often GIVEN away to team owners. It's a hand-out, and it goes unchallenged every time, because.....

...because sports.

1/13/2016 1:43:27 PM

^ Notice, I didn't just mention stadiums. For example, Quintiles got millions to build their office tower, with the understanding that they would hire a certain amount of people over a certain period of time. Hard to argue that the public investment wasn't worth the squeeze.

And this isn't an uncommon practice. Cities are always providing incentives to private companies to relocate to their area. But because this is sports, it's somehow different?

1/13/2016 1:55:18 PM

There's a pretty staggering difference between a few million and 500 million (which is the going rate for stadiums these days). Besides, an office tower can be re-purposed with new tenants if Quintiles goes under. The same is not true for a stadium (look up Manaus, Brazil. A soccer stadium is now just a giant parking lot in the middle of the rainforest).

And how many people do you think Quintiles hire's? How many people do the Raider's employ? How many of them are full time? How many of them are above minimum wage? The "jobs" argument is ESPECIALLY hollow when it comes to sports franchises. You're comparing full-time, working and middle class jobs with mostly seasonal, part-time, minimum wage employees who work 8 Sundays a year.

You can't even begin to compare the two. They don't pencil out the same. Not even close.

No, it shouldn't be different because "it's sports." That's entirely the point I'm trying to make. If Quintile's asked for what the Raiders are asking for, they'd be laughed right out of the room.

The fact that sports teams can't just go to the bank and ask for a loan for their stadium's says a lot (Because the return on the investment is too risky and it doesn't pencil out for the lender). THAT'S WHY THEY GO TO THE CITY. Because they know they can take that loot from city coffers with less risk involved for the owners (and therefore shuffle that risk on to the taxpayer, instead).

City officials are supposed to protect the public interest, but they always default on that responsibility when it comes to sports teams.

And I say that as a sports fan who has watched his hometown team fight multiple (fuckin' Maloofs) relocation battles.




[Edited on January 13, 2016 at 2:33 PM. Reason : ]

1/13/2016 2:16:44 PM

Educate yourself HCH:

http://deadspin.com/john-oliver-explains-the-biggest-scam-in-sports-1717440394
http://deadspin.com/no-one-wants-publicly-financed-stadiums-except-the-peop-1748487455
http://deadspin.com/nfl-executive-its-unfair-to-ask-billionaire-owners-to-1747319950
http://deadspin.com/judge-rules-rams-can-build-publicly-financed-stadium-wi-1721820665

1/13/2016 2:28:45 PM

What the new stadium might look like. I think this is a pretty cool design.

1/13/2016 4:08:03 PM

Chip Kelly to Santa Clara, breaking the hearts of dozens of Wolfpack fans

1/14/2016 2:03:41 PM

ugh DO NOT WANT. Now this means they'll try to hold on to Kaepernick and it'll be another 2-3 shitty seasons. FML

1/14/2016 2:07:00 PM

Quote :

"They move so that owners can shake down local municipalities for huge public subsidies. Giant stadiums/arenas with large footprints and several streams of on-site revenue are essential to the business plans of team owners, and they'll be damned if they're gonna pay for their overhead themselves. Any business could be a successful business if the taxpayer was forced to pay for the facilities instead of the owners of said businesses. And there is no empirical evidence to suggest that the building of new stadiums provide any economic or civic boost to the cities in which they reside. No other country has this sort of endemic system in place where cities like Seattle or St. Louis or Cleveland or soon to be Oakland (again) lose their sports franchises like we do in the US."

How do we stop this?


I am sure we will never have a NFL team in Portland as there would absolutely be a citizen revolt if they ever attempted to use public funds to build some Billionaire a NFL stadium to extract more profits from its people. Hell there was a revolt about even building a much needed freeway. Charlotte on the other is a city that happily bends over to take it in the ass by Corporate American. They happily gave Jerry Richardson $$$$ for fucking escalators and a jumbo-tron against the general voice of the populace a few years ago. We all know that in Charlotte it is the opinion of the corporate overlords BoA, Wells-Fargo, Duke, etc that really matter.

Quote :

"What if the presence of the privately held business stimulates the economy and job growth in the area so much that public funding of infrastructure is a minimal investment? "

When extorting Charlotte for money for the Bank Of America upgrades Jerry Richardson used the
ole this will "stimulate the economy", "bring more tourism", and "bring jobs".

Not sure what planet he lives on but I doubt any football enthusiasts decide to make a special
trip to Charlotte because we have the latest and greatest Jumbotron nor did the new escalators
given any corporations an extra push to relocate their corporation to the queen city.

Honestly I used to be really into the NFL but I keep getting more and more put-off by the whole
cash cow, money sucking, ultra corporate aspect that is the primary driver behind the game.
Instead of such things as good competition, fans, etc.

Football is practically being engineered year-after-year through various rule tweaks to maximize profits $.


[Edited on January 14, 2016 at 2:32 PM. Reason : aa]

1/14/2016 2:28:28 PM

Anybody watch Super Bowl I on NFL Network earlier? They're replaying it right now. It's awesome. NFL Films basically pieced it together from old footage because there weren't any remaining copies. Then they restored it and refined the quality, etc. And they have a bunch of modern stat overlays about the game, teams, players

1/16/2016 12:10:59 AM

The sound of Alex Smith's baby hands' clapping was too soft and quiet for the Center to hear

1/16/2016 6:02:28 PM

Yeah, stadiums are an awful use of public funds. Tourism? There are 8 games a year there. 9 or 10 if you're super lucky.

Using them for concerts? Yeah, only 1 stadium had more than 7 concerts booked there last year.

So... you're going to spend a billion dollars for something that will draw additional people to an area 15-20 days out of the year? It's a horrible use of public money. Even the idea of businesses around there and revitalizing an area is super questionable at best. Look at where they've built new football stadiums recently. You haven't seen that effect anywhere. With a basketball/hockey arena maybe, if you can keep that thing in use regularly, but something the size of a football stadium? Nope.

1/16/2016 7:00:25 PM

Andy Reid clock management is an amazing thing to behold

1/16/2016 7:39:13 PM

I thought he said there were penalties against both teams, then he listed 2 penalties on the cards?

1/16/2016 9:04:34 PM

Refs are blind

1/16/2016 10:48:13 PM

It's a shame that the Cardinals have to use a challenge flag on such a shitty call on the field. Also, Richard Rodgers is shitty for trying to pass off that play as a catch.

1/16/2016 10:49:41 PM

as Seahawks fans, we're all rooting for the Cardinals, right?

1/16/2016 11:03:35 PM

No way Arizona blows this lead

1/16/2016 11:12:56 PM

This is exciting!

1/16/2016 11:22:58 PM

How do you take an extra 10 seconds and NOT spike it? jeez

1/16/2016 11:23:44 PM

wow

replays never show it hitting the ground, even after the punch

[Edited on January 16, 2016 at 11:28 PM. Reason : .]

1/16/2016 11:27:27 PM

the fucking Packers and Patriots have the biggest horseshoes up their asses

1/16/2016 11:27:33 PM

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCi-fytEQO8

1/16/2016 11:28:44 PM

I mean the catch clearly wasn't clean but I didn't see it hit the ground either. As long as he got control of it before the ball hit the ground it's a catch.

Need a better camera angle.

[Edited on January 16, 2016 at 11:29 PM. Reason : ]

1/16/2016 11:29:33 PM

that doesnt look like control to me, just because its trapped under an arm isnt control. But I bet they wont overturn it because its a playoff game

1/16/2016 11:29:50 PM

That's a td, my bros.

1/16/2016 11:30:22 PM

Really torn as to who I'd rather play if we beat Seattle.

1/16/2016 11:31:13 PM

"it didn't flip"

this shit is bananas

1/16/2016 11:33:24 PM

Football is hilarious.

1/16/2016 11:33:58 PM

^^^ I think it's obvious, the team we smashed a while back.

[Edited on January 16, 2016 at 11:34 PM. Reason : ...]

1/16/2016 11:34:12 PM

objectively, the ball didn't hit the ground in any of the replays. it was punched out but his left arm was between the ball and the ground. what happened to all the objective tww posters?

1/16/2016 11:34:45 PM

YES! I had a ton on the UNDER for number of flips. NAILED that shit

1/16/2016 11:34:54 PM

I..i..it didn't flip. Please don't hurt me!

1/16/2016 11:35:09 PM

Lombardi rolling in his grave

1/16/2016 11:37:52 PM

That play was nuts. Who is supposed to be covering the HoF receiver?

1/16/2016 11:37:58 PM

Quote :

"No way Arizona blows this lead"

told ya

#ObjectiveTKE

1/16/2016 11:39:57 PM

Awesome game.

1/16/2016 11:41:09 PM

Mike Carey is never right.

1/24/2016 3:50:03 PM

I'm watching behind. Want a Broncos win so bad.

And nobody post the Chapel Hill score. It doesn't air on ESPNU until 6:30, and I gotta watch Panthers first.

1/24/2016 3:54:08 PM

ahaha Brady you fucking bitch

1/24/2016 4:27:35 PM

1/24/2016 4:27:53 PM

The Gronkos are going to win.

1/24/2016 4:41:37 PM

Bridget, the UNC* game is on ESPN News right now

[Edited on January 24, 2016 at 4:57 PM. Reason : ]

1/24/2016 4:56:56 PM

Manning's arm is looking great today. Gotta respect what HGH can do for the human body.

1/24/2016 5:18:28 PM

Now, twista, you know it's Mrs. Manning that's taking the HGH, not Peyton. Come on, man

1/24/2016 5:27:12 PM