Quote :

"The book is closing on Lowe. He has had time, now he has talent. This year decides whether he stays or goes."

People are constantly harping on the fact that he has the talent now and it's time to put up or shut up, but the same people always neglect to mention that 7 of the 10 players who see playing time are freshmen or sophomores. These guys aren't the fab 5 and Lowe isn't Tom Izzo or Coach K, so why not give him the time, say more than 1 year, to coach these guys up and make them into something good?

I know this idea isn't groundbreaking or anything, but some of Lowe's detractors on here act like just because these guys are "talented" freshmen and sophomores that we should be able to expect the same results as we would get out of a talented junior or senior-laden team. Sorry, but unless your John Calipari buying the best high-school talent every year, it doesn't work that way.

Obviously it took longer than we would've all liked to get the kind of players we need here to be successful, but now that we have them, running Lowe off for (possibly) not making the tournament would be short-sighted and in my opinion would set the program back far more than giving Lowe another year to see what he can do with his players.

12/9/2010 9:58:35 PM

Finally. Someone with a goddamn brain cell around here.

12/9/2010 10:00:28 PM

Quote :

"A lot of what happened with the Lowe situation was supposedly from Fowler's handling of the recruits after Sendek's departure."

Yes but we have a good AD now who knows what the hell is going on.

Quote :

"he's done a lot for this school already -- he gets more time."

This should not matter honestly. I hate that this might affect the decision.

12/9/2010 10:00:53 PM

NOPE HOLD ON. LET'S TALKING HERB SENDEK.

in herb's last year here, his tenth year here, he was starting three seniors, a junior and a sophomore nba first rounder, with four four-star guys on the bench in fells, brackman, mccauley and grant. if you're a head coach in your tenth year at a place, that is the year you wait for. you probably struggled through the years prior where you maybe had some good players but not a complete team. you were probably just trying to make the tournament and bide your time until the awesome year of a deep, talented and veteran team.

nope, herb finished 4th in the conference, lost his first game in the acc tournament to the worst team ever in wake forest (not to mention his last game of the regular season) and got his signature one win in the ncaa tournament. that is absolutely pedestrian and there's no reason to go out of your way to keep that around. if you want to give this guy a lifetime contract then you're a loser, b/c herb never won anything.

12/9/2010 10:02:16 PM

^That's all true but what each started with was completely different. I wish it would die.

Much like if Sid is fired after this year and everyone comes back. The new coach will be judged to a higher standard than either Sid or Herb...

12/9/2010 10:07:07 PM

Quote :

"LET'S TALKING HERB SENDEK"

[Edited on December 9, 2010 at 10:28 PM. Reason : a]

12/9/2010 10:27:47 PM

^ lol oops.

^^ no man, sidney lowe is irrelevant. our coach left and we had an AD that was blindsided by this. lee fowler failing to find a good replacement doesn't make herb sendek a good coach.

and you know this, but i would gladly hire a new coach every five years instead of settling for amazingly mediocre results for decades.

12/9/2010 11:16:16 PM

A++ post by statered at the top of this page.

12/10/2010 12:23:30 AM

I think that it is too early to be talking about axing lowe.

12/10/2010 12:28:37 AM

5 years is plenty of time to turn around a program, there's a million fucking examples of coaches turning around worse situations than the one Lowe inherited in half the time. Here's a list of coaches off the top of my head that inherited worse situations and turned programs around faster than Lowe:
Thad Matta
Mike Anderson
Bruce Pearl
Tom Crean
Rick Barnes
Lorenzo Romar

12/10/2010 1:19:18 AM

And how many of them had no college experiense?

12/10/2010 8:00:21 AM

tom crean finished 10-21 last year. what are you talking about?

12/10/2010 8:10:42 AM

^^^how many games is Bruce Pearl suspended for this season for his shady dealings with recruits????

[Edited on December 10, 2010 at 8:30 AM. Reason : s]

12/10/2010 8:28:23 AM

And Lorenzo Romar isn't even a real person

[Edited on December 10, 2010 at 8:31 AM. Reason : ]

12/10/2010 8:30:48 AM

excellent post to start the page. not even mentioning the other factors like coming into college coaching cold, the bungling of the coaching search and handling of the recruits, having 2 of the nation's top programs within throwing distance, nc state shit (kidding, kidding), etc. etc.

i saw a lot of improvement in last years team compared to the year before. and i think we'll see even more from this year's compared to last. we should make the tournament. i think we will make the tournament. but i don't think that should be the sole factor for sid keeping his job here.

12/10/2010 9:47:46 AM

Quote :

"People are constantly harping on the fact that he has the talent now and it's time to put up or shut up, but the same people always neglect to mention that 7 of the 10 players who see playing time are freshmen or sophomores. These guys aren't the fab 5 and Lowe isn't Tom Izzo or Coach K, so why not give him the time, say more than 1 year, to coach these guys up and make them into something good? "

I agree, to a certain extent.

We have experience at VERY important positions. We have a senior PG who has been starting for 3+ years now. That's invaluable. And when he gets back, Tracy Smith is one of the ACC's best front court players. Scott Wood has a whole year of experience behind him.

With the exception of Brown, these freshmen aren't being asked to carry this team right now (or at least they haven't been given that opportunity). And in college basketball these days, almost all of the programs rely on underclassmen. You rarely have senior/junior laden teams because good players leave early and the players that stay get recruited over. EVERYONE relies on young players.

This excuse will not work for me once Smith gets back. Veterans at the point and at center. Sophomore shooting guard who played the second most minutes on the team last year. All our back-ups and role players do have experience, and except for Howell playing a lot while Smith is out, no one is being asked to carry a big load on this team. Williams played 20 minutes a game and Howell 14 last year. Everyone is using Calipari as an example, but his freshmen are starting and carrying the team...ours aren't even doing that.

So everyone is saying "7 out of 10" underclassmen...blah blah blah. Well out of our starting 5, 3 are upperclassmen and 1 is a sophomore who almost led the team in in minutes last year. Sorry everyone on the team can't be a friggin junior or senior. Everyone else is dealing with it, so we should to.

Unless Smith gets hurt again and is out for the year, it's still tournament or bust for me.

12/10/2010 10:38:45 AM

^ I agree with pretty much everything you said however I only feel it fair to point out that.

Quote :

"We have experience at VERY important positions. We have a senior PG who has been starting for 3+ years now. That's invaluable. And when he gets back, Tracy Smith is one of the ACC's best front court players. Scott Wood has a whole year of experience behind him. "

The senior PG that you reference may be incapable of ever really being an ACC caliber PG. He has shown way to much inconsistency at this point for him to be considered a strong point on this team.

12/10/2010 10:46:34 AM

Who is accountable for that? If only Chris Wright didn't jump ship after Lee "Fowler'd" that... Not that he didn't make the correct decision.

12/10/2010 10:49:07 AM

jbrick

That's a lot of words to defend a stance that's entirely off base

There are 345 teams playing Division I basketball this year

16 of them are less experienced than our team

Experience: 0.97 yrs
Rank: 329
NCAA DI Avg.: 1.72 yrs

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=North%20Carolina%20St.

12/10/2010 10:50:55 AM

Not really to Ernies point, but lol at how fubar pomeroy is still.. When can we start paying attn to those efficiency ratings?

12/10/2010 10:57:04 AM

Fuck him and his weighting preseason ratings

Hiding that shit behind a curtain makes me discount his ratings entirely

Blog posts say they'll be a non-factor by January, though

12/10/2010 10:58:53 AM

Haven't some the best teams of recent years been nearly all freshman and sophomores? I realize our class isn't at the level of last year's Kentucky, but having lots of upperclassmen usually means you don't have NBA players. Duke (and to a lesser extent Kansas and Georgetown) is the one team who consistently has the elite college players who don't project well to the next level, so they stay 3-4 years.

12/10/2010 11:04:27 AM

^^^^

But which of those players play a lot of minutes. It's almost like you completely disregarded my entire post.

Two of our veterans play the majority of the minutes (one being hurt) and the other is a sophomore who played the 2nd most minutes on the team last year.

If all of our freshmen and sophomores were logging 30+ minutes a game, then you would have a point.

We've got a young team, but we're experienced in important positions and our freshmen should be talented and well coached enough to where we shouldn't be using that excuse.

[Edited on December 10, 2010 at 11:05 AM. Reason : .]

12/10/2010 11:04:48 AM

Quote :

"Two of our veterans play the majority of the minutes (one being hurt)"

So one of our veterans

Quote :

"If all of our freshmen and sophomores were logging 30+ minutes a game, then you would have a point. "

Top four in %Min: Wood, Brown, Harrow, Leslie

So none of our veterans

12/10/2010 11:07:02 AM

Quote :

" So one of our veterans"

My argument said that when Smith gets back, we don't have any excuses.

^What is a %Min? Javi actually averages more minutes than Leslie, but I do get your point (even though I think Leslie's minute would be down if Smith were playing). I said Brown gets a lot of minutes and Javi played a lot more than Harrow in that recent Syracuse loss.

We still have three "veterans" (sophomore be damned, Wood is a veteran in minutes played and experience). Only one freshmen has started for us, and besides Brown, neither has been asked to carry a big load for us yet.

12/10/2010 11:13:13 AM

%Min is amount of a team's minutes a player is on the court. Javi averages half a minute more than Leslie

Maybe Smith won't come back, who knows what's going to happen. That's what I meant when I called you guys out for being ansty the other day. It's like you've already been to March 2011 and have seen what's going to happen. Just let the season play out.

And no one's using inexperience as an excuse. Just realizing that it's a reality you guys seem to seem to be completely ignorant towards.

12/10/2010 11:16:45 AM

Quote :

"So one of our veterans"

And that one veteran would be relegated to a backup role on most other ACC teams. Just because we had no one else to log minutes at the PG position doesn't suddenly make him an ACC caliber senior pg.

V I am not denying his improvement I just don't think his ceiling is that high. He isn't terrible and would be an excellent back up guard for most ACC teams however I don't want people to delude themselves into thinking he was some returning stud player.

[Edited on December 10, 2010 at 11:27 AM. Reason : v I think you misunderstood me]

12/10/2010 11:17:13 AM

It's like no one realizes how much better of a player Javi has become under Sid

People don't see his transformation from a steaming pile of shit into a serviceable point guard in what is usually the best PG league in the country. All because we think Lowe should have pulled in a Jason Williams in his first recruiting cycle.

12/10/2010 11:22:49 AM

^I'm definitely not the biggest Javi fan (playing wise, I'm sure he's a good guy in general) and agree with you in regards to his playing ability.

However, he is "solid." He knocks down open shots, takes care of the ball, and USUALLY makes good decisions (although he definitely has his lapses). But he does nothing special, has a tough time creating a shot, and usually loses the match-ups against above average PGs. But having 3+ years experience as a starting pg in the ACC can't be ignored.

Having him and Harrow on the same team should be a blessing. I'm waiting for Sid to figure out how to use them properly, because it definitely hasn't happened yet.

12/10/2010 11:27:07 AM

^What's "properly" or do you have an opinion?

I, personally, think properly would be Harrow playing the 1 spot, and Javi playing a second 3-threat 2 or somewhere near the end of the bench.

12/10/2010 11:30:20 AM

Quote :

"I'm waiting for Sid to figure out how to use them properly, because it definitely hasn't happened yet."

What information are you basing this off of? I am assuming Syracuse which has been explained to death. ONE MORE TIME: He didn't get more minutes against Syracuse because once our fast break was stopped he was no more of an asset offensively (especially because his jumpshot isn't as good as Javi's) and was a bit of a liability defensively because of his size.

12/10/2010 11:30:53 AM

Quote :

"However, he is "solid." He knocks down open shots, takes care of the ball, and USUALLY makes good decisions "

i don't mean to bash on javi, but he's far from "solid". Some games he's very solid. Then some games (i think it was wisc) he makes 4 unforced TOs in the matter of about 20 mins. Two palmings, and two travels with nobody really guarding him. That's not "solid" play for a senior. But yeah, he's definitely coming a looooooong way since his freshman year.

12/10/2010 11:35:26 AM

Quote :

"ONE MORE TIME: He didn't get more minutes against Syracuse because once our fast break was stopped he was no more of an asset offensively"

Bull shit.

Harrow comes in at the 13 minute mark in the 1st half and we're down 8 points. Me makes a 3-pointer, a dunk, misses a couple shots, has three assists, and a couple rebounds and we go in the half down by 4 points and some good momentum. He was a catalyst on the break and did as good a job defending as Javi did (Jardin was abusing Javi at the beginning of that half).

Harrow came in at the 6 minute mark in the second half when we're down by 2 points. THE 6 MINUTE MARK. He was a huge part of our comeback in the 1st half and he doesn't get in until the 6 minute mark? If he was struggling that game, then why play him 13 minutes in the first half. He leaves at the 2 minutes mark and we're still down by 2 points. During that time he grabbed one rebound and missed one jumper. He got 4 minutes in the 2nd half and it was determined that our fast break had stopped?? wtf kind of logic is that?

The Georgetown game was another aberration. Harrow played almost the whole second half and he was out of control and nothing was working...Javi should have been put in to stop the bleeding. You have two point guards who do different things, learn how to use them.

Back to the Syrucuse game...we had that initial pop to start the second half, but you could see it start to unravel around the 13 minute mark. From the 11 minute mark to the end, Javi had 1 assist and zero points (he was only out of the game for a minute or two). And Javi was the better option??

You're lying to yourself if you don't think Lowe has problems with our rotation.

12/10/2010 11:50:31 AM

Quote :

"tom crean finished 10-21 last year. what are you talking about?"

Look what he did at Marquette man, not to mention that was year 2 at a program that was in WAY worse shape than the one Lowe inherited (NCAA probation, zero scholarship players returning).

Quote :

"And Lorenzo Romar isn't even a real person"

you are an idiot

12/10/2010 11:51:07 AM

Quote :

"i don't mean to bash on javi, but he's far from "solid"."

Again, I'm a huge critic of Javi...but I think he's a better option than a Larry Drew or Quentin Thomas type point guard. All three of those guys don't give you much in creating shots, they'll make some bone-headed plays, but Javi has the edge in that he usually knocks down the open jumper. That's a pretty big deal in college ball.

12/10/2010 11:52:29 AM

But he's also the guard that leads the "throw the ball around the horn for 25 seconds, try like hell to make something from nothing (or worse, don't even notice the shot clock), and throw up an air ball hail mary from half court with two guys coming at him" offense.

That's why he'd make a solid two, and should probably not be in the point guard position anymore

12/10/2010 11:55:53 AM

Play the 2? He's 6 feet tall and plays worse defense than Steve Nash. Terrible idea.

12/10/2010 12:00:00 PM

Quote :

"tom crean finished 10-21 last year. what are you talking about?"

I don't know how I missed this gem.

Crean was given about the worst situation possible an incoming coach could get. That guy's record shouldn't even count until about year 3 or 4. Fuck Kelvin Sampson. Ahh...found it. This is what Crean had in his first year:

Quote :

"Crean inherited a decimated team. Between Crean's hiring and the start of the 2008–09 season, freshman phenom Eric Gordon opted to leave early for the NBA, two players transferred and three others were kicked off the team. As a result, Crean was left with a roster with only two returning players, only one of whom was on scholarship."

12/10/2010 12:06:56 PM

Quote :

"^^^how many games is Bruce Pearl suspended for this season for his shady dealings with recruits????"

So you would rather have Lowe than Bruce Pearl? If so GTFO. He lied to the NCAA about having recruits over. He wasn't paying them UNC style. Last year's Elite Eight run should have been enough evidence for you. Now there's a coach who took over shit teams and turned them into gold. Buzz Peterson was God awful at UT.

12/10/2010 12:13:37 PM

Meh...I don't like Bruce Pearl. He's got that sleazy care salesman look going on that I do not like one bit. Tennessee can keep him. I have many doubts about Lowe's coaching ability, but I'd still take him over Pearl.

12/10/2010 12:23:45 PM

Quote :

"Harrow comes in at the 13 minute mark in the 1st half and we're down 8 points. Me makes a 3-pointer, a dunk, misses a couple shots, has three assists, and a couple rebounds and we go in the half down by 4 points and some good momentum. He was a catalyst on the break and did as good a job defending as Javi did (Jardin was abusing Javi at the beginning of that half). Harrow came in at the 6 minute mark in the second half when we're down by 2 points. THE 6 MINUTE MARK. He was a huge part of our comeback in the 1st half and he doesn't get in until the 6 minute mark? If he was struggling that game, then why play him 13 minutes in the first half. He leaves at the 2 minutes mark and we're still down by 2 points. During that time he grabbed one rebound and missed one jumper. He got 4 minutes in the 2nd half and it was determined that our fast break had stopped?? wtf kind of logic is that? The Georgetown game was another aberration. Harrow played almost the whole second half and he was out of control and nothing was working...Javi should have been put in to stop the bleeding. You have two point guards who do different things, learn how to use them. Back to the Syrucuse game...we had that initial pop to start the second half, but you could see it start to unravel around the 13 minute mark. From the 11 minute mark to the end, Javi had 1 assist and zero points (he was only out of the game for a minute or two). And Javi was the better option?? You're lying to yourself if you don't think Lowe has problems with our rotation."

So to your first point with Harrow on the floor we ended the first half +4. Hardly proof of a guard coming in and taking over the game. Again as I already stated most of his contribution came because we were able to push the ball once syracuse adjusted to that he was more limited (this happened in the first half).
Second half starts we go +6 (we pushed the lead to 4 several times with Javi on the floor).

Quote :

" From the 11 minute mark to the end, Javi had 1 assist and zero points (he was only out of the game for a minute or two). And Javi was the better option??"

And Harrow had 1 rebound and a missed jumper when he was put in. If he was the solution that you seem to think he is why didn't the team go on a run when he was put in at the 6 min mark? In fact the entire time that Harrow was in the team scored 1 pt and Syracuse scored 1pt.

Georgetown both guards looked like shit against some very good guards. Javi looked like he was in one of his patented funks.

12/10/2010 12:31:41 PM

Quote :

"And Harrow had 1 rebound and a missed jumper when he was put in."

....in 4 minutes after he had been sitting on the bench for over an hour. Javi's production was in 11 minutes. Our run in the 2nd half had plateaued and everyone could see it. Ryan should have gone in well before that. I was almost surprised that Harrow didn't start the 2nd half because it seemed liked Lowe had given up on Javi in the first half.

I'm just saying that Sidney's substitution patterns don't seem to make a lot of sense. As far as the Georgetown game, everyone seemed to be in a funk...but you gotta switch it up when the other team is on a 15-0 run...and Harrow was making a lot of mistakes.

It's the coaches job to figure out the strengths and weaknesses of different players and to know when and how to use them. In our games against teams that are on our level or higher (Wisc, Cuse, Gtown), I have not agreed with how Sidney has done that. But that's my opinion that you are more than welcome to disagree with, and I can see the points you're trying to make, I just don't agree.

12/10/2010 12:42:02 PM

Quote :

"I don't know how I missed this gem. Crean was given about the worst situation possible an incoming coach could get. That guy's record shouldn't even count until about year 3 or 4. Fuck Kelvin Sampson"

you probably missed it in the same way you missed the preface to crean

Quote :

"Here's a list of coaches off the top of my head that inherited worse situations and turned programs around faster than Lowe"

that program is currently not turned around.

Quote :

"Look what he did at Marquette man, not to mention that was year 2 at a program that was in WAY worse shape than the one Lowe inherited (NCAA probation, zero scholarship players returning)."

it's definitely a worse scenario at indiana, but you also said he had turned the program around. it's totally fair game to point out that a) a nice start against nobodies doesn't mean the program is turned around and b) your point, at least in regards to crean, was incorrect. i don't have too fond of a memory of the status of the marquette program in 1999, but if we're going back that far we can name coaches all day guy.

12/10/2010 1:13:03 PM

I wouldn't say he's got them turned around, but they're definitely heading in the right direction. They've beat everyone they were suppose to beat and their only loss was at Boston College. He's in year three after being handed a disaster and you could say he's on par with Sidney who was handed a much better situation and is in year five.

12/10/2010 1:32:06 PM

i'm just gonna kind of throw this out there generally speaking for everyone who thinks they know the best way to utilize our players

do you see them in practice every day? do you see how hard they work on their own time? do you see which players pick up concepts and plays quicker than others? do you see which players in practice have better chemistry with each other on different ends of the court in different situations? do you see which players are willing to put in the extra time and effort? do you see which players goof around together off the court and build that repoire? cause if all we're doing is watching the games and basing everything on that, whereas Sid (Herb, Les, V, etc) sees the guys every day...maybe he knows a little more about how to use them then we do

and thats not even factoring in that he's been a college or pro player or coach since before most of us were born

12/10/2010 1:33:01 PM

Quote :

"you could say he's on par with Sidney who was handed a much better situation and is in year five."

Jesus Christ

12/10/2010 1:33:05 PM

I don't even know if y'all know what you're arguing anymore.

The important point is this.

We are now in year 5. This team has the talent, depth, and enough experience to be a tournament team. I'm not expecting a final four or even a sweet sixteen, but making the tournament should be the minimum expectation.

Honestly, I think that we will, and this whole argument will be moot.

12/10/2010 1:36:43 PM

Quote :

"I wouldn't say he's got them turned around, but they're definitely heading in the right direction. They've beat everyone they were suppose to beat and their only loss was at Boston College."

if you're not supposed to beat a boston college team w/ a first year coach, then i would say that your team sucks. and that's fine, i'm not trying to shit on tom crean. i know that's a tough spot to be in. but forgive me if i'm not going to declare him grand champion of returning indiana to bob knight glory and personally taking a shit on sidney lowe in year 3.

Quote :

"He's in year three after being handed a disaster and you could say he's on par with Sidney who was handed a much better situation and is in year five."

you can't possibly say that. they've beaten seven teams, only one of which i even recognize by their abbreviation. and i only know who that team is b/c their campus is 30 minutes away from me (it's nccu). you can draw absolutely no conclusions right now on tom crean. no i take that back, you can draw one definite conclusion: it is absurd to declare indiana "turned around".

12/10/2010 1:48:03 PM

Quote :

"it's definitely a worse scenario at indiana, but you also said he had turned the program around. it's totally fair game to point out that a) a nice start against nobodies doesn't mean the program is turned around and b) your point, at least in regards to crean, was incorrect. i don't have too fond of a memory of the status of the marquette program in 1999, but if we're going back that far we can name coaches all day guy."

I never said he turned Indiana around, it's still too early to tell on that one...but he most certainly turned Marquette around.

12/10/2010 2:44:57 PM

i was going to make some ridiculous comment about how good of a job adolph rupp did at kentucky compared to lowe... but i guess '99 is recent enough for this conversation?

maybe?

12/10/2010 2:59:38 PM