http://m.wral.com/w/news-top/story/83108935/

1/19/2013 1:28:06 PM

This is sure to help things...

1/19/2013 1:38:59 PM

Quote :

"Maybe you didn't see the cone of fire in the daylight?"

anything is possible I suppose

Quote :

"A witness told WRAL that a gun went off after being checked by a law enforcement official at a safety check, hitting a man in the hand and a woman in the side."

http://www.wral.com/two-people-injured-in-shooting-at-raleigh-gun-show/12000843/

that's a rather ambiguous statement... does this imply that it went off as a result of the safety check, or just that the safety check didn't catch a loaded firearm

1/19/2013 1:55:17 PM

The cop doing the safety check pulled the trigger....fucking moron.

1/19/2013 3:02:07 PM

well, that's certainly one way to check the chamber

1/19/2013 3:11:08 PM

Cops should clearly be the only ones trusted with guns

1/19/2013 4:02:58 PM

press conference now:

http://www.wral.com/news/video/12001157/#/vid12001157

1/19/2013 4:31:49 PM

according to conference...

shotgun was in the case.
gun went off when the case was opened.
gun show WILL go on tomorrow.
no charges filed YET.

[Edited on January 19, 2013 at 5:12 PM. Reason : ]

1/19/2013 5:11:42 PM

Something does not add up. Shotguns (or guns for that matter) dont just "go off".

Still, some of the questions the reporters were asking were stupid.

1/19/2013 5:22:18 PM

Gun cases kill

1/19/2013 6:28:16 PM

I was in line when the shot went off and close to the incident to have heard it through the doors (about 20 yards). I didn't talk to anyone, or have since read anything, other than goloers and mouth-breather commenters on N&O, to support any evidence that an LEO was handling the gun.

Everyone I talked to said it was the gun-owner that was handling the gun when it discharged.

And the most plausible scenario I have heard is that the man placed the gun on the table and was zip tying it when the gun discharged. This is only rumor & hearsay I've heard, but strikes me as believable since 2 hands and a hip were hit, all of which would have been at the level of the table.

[Edited on January 19, 2013 at 6:35 PM. Reason : ]

1/19/2013 6:34:53 PM

If you are bringing a firearm to a private sale, why on earth would it be loaded. This is common sense failure 1.

But a shotgun going off on it's own as he opened the case? That's highly unlikely. Someone set it off. A machine does not simply misfunction like that own its own. Something had to "provoke" the firearm to discharge.

And fucking christ, those interviewers are stupid. Half of them didn't even listen to what the chief was saying before the questions poured in.

[Edited on January 19, 2013 at 7:13 PM. Reason : .]

1/19/2013 7:11:18 PM

Question: am I the only person on earth that doesn't keep a bullet chambered?

Just seems its more likely to go off accidentally than a situation coming up where i have a split second to pull it out and fire it.

[Edited on January 19, 2013 at 10:51 PM. Reason : ?]

1/19/2013 10:48:57 PM

no. My buddy doesn't keep one chambered. He fully acknowledges the risk in carrying without one chambered in his glock 26, but wants to physically have to "load" a round before he starts shooting. It's like his final "mental" check.

Me, however, if I have to pull it, I intend to shoot it. Pulling it in the first place is my final "mental" check.

The shotgun is loaded with shells, but not one in the chamber. It doesn't have a firing pin safety block AFAIK and I don't need it falling over and going off on accident.

Quote :

"Just seems its more likely to go off accidentally than a situation coming up where i have a split second to pull it out and fire it. "

That's why you train. It takes less time to move your finger from off the trigger to on than it is to rack a slide. And if you have a split second to pull and fire it, are you going to have enough time to rack one too? One more step does potentially complicate things, and if you don't practice regularly, your instinct may be to just pull firearm, pull the trigger in a desperate rush to shoot your target, hear a "click!" and find yourself in an "oh shit" moment (unless you have a revolver and the gun is on an empty cylinder and the next cylinder is also empty so you have to pull twice to get the first round to go.)

[Edited on January 19, 2013 at 10:58 PM. Reason : ..]

1/19/2013 10:54:41 PM

i pocket carry an LCP with a full mag and one in the hole. no safeties besides a long heavy double action trigger pull. draw, aim, squeeze.

1911 with a full mag and one in the hole. hammer cocked. safety on.

[Edited on January 19, 2013 at 11:01 PM. Reason : shotgun waits with one in the chamber and as much 00 buckshot i could fit in it. safety on.]

1/19/2013 10:59:56 PM

Just haven't been able to talk myself in to it.

1/19/2013 11:05:25 PM

i can't talk myself out of it

1/19/2013 11:06:48 PM

What accident are you trying to prevent? Pull the trigger as you draw? You need to practice. It's a system training issue, not a hardware issue, IMO.

Let me ask you this, if you pull, your firearm, do you believe you have enough time and are skilled enough to rack one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxrpLbaEuY

If you are going to carry, you should do yourself and others the favor of being "fluent" with it; that means regularly practicing your system. Not only is it the responsible thing to do, but it will honestly help you should you ever encounter a stressful situation; your muscle memory will help you execute a quick draw with minimal fumbling, delays, or complications. If you practice your system, carrying with one in the pipe shouldn't be an issue. If carrying without one in the pipe is your system, you have to make sure you incorporate racking the slide to chamber a round as part of your draw sequence (if semi-auto)


[Edited on January 19, 2013 at 11:18 PM. Reason : .]

1/19/2013 11:08:16 PM

Quote :

"Question: am I the only person on earth that doesn't keep a bullet chambered? "

You're definitely not the only one. There are tons of people who don't trust themselves. If you don't trust yourself then maybe it's a good idea not to keep one chambered.

Quote :

"Just seems its more likely to go off accidentally than a situation coming up where i have a split second to pull it out and fire it."

There are very, very, very few gun "accidents" but there are many negligent or unintentional discharges of firearms.
What happened at the fairgrounds wasn't an accident. Some fairy didn't magically put a round in the chamber of a gun that should have been emptied and some fairy didn't magically pull that trigger. Some ray of sunlight didn't suddenly appear and blind someone causing them to accidentally put pressure on the trigger. The owner was negligent in ensuring the chamber was empty. If the wire tie story proves to be true then the worker putting it on was negligent in personally ensuring that the gun was empty.

1/20/2013 12:18:34 AM

^^For the type/price range I had in mind 5 years ago, that's one of the biggest reasons I chose for CC the Springfield XD over other reliable semi auto polymers like the M&P (active safety) or Glock (no safety at that time); with the two passive safety locks on the trigger and back of the grip it was a good fit for a newbie like I was and still valuable to someone with years of experience. I'd feel comfortable saying a similar passive set up like that on the accidental shotgun discharge that happened in Raleigh would have prevented that one in a million chance down to one in ten million. Still possible but just much less probable.

Being the first pistol I ever truly owned, I was fearful of carrying one in the pipe and pulling a Plaxico Burress. I'm appreciative of having safety redundancy in place on top of what IMHO should be mandatory and frequent training for any new people who daily CC or even OC. Once I was comfortable with it and could test pull in different positions and environments with good finger control I started carrying with it chambered after a few years and haven't looked back since.

I'm not ignorant of the fact it all comes down to personal preference, experience, training etc, but in mine I'd rather everybody's firearm had some sort of safety engaged (or actually being used) so I wouldn't be on the receiving end of an accidental discharge from ol' Billy Bob who's been around guns for over 40 years or whatever. That don't mean shit if those 40 years weren't spent respecting the weapon.


[Edited on January 20, 2013 at 12:26 AM. Reason : ^You put it more succinctly than I did]

1/20/2013 12:23:28 AM

This is pretty much the reason I will carry one in the chamber. Guy dies after he can't rack his slide when being attacked (graphic)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712

Generally there is no excuse when the holster covers the trigger guard.

[Edited on January 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM. Reason : set]

1/20/2013 8:25:17 AM

I've always been of the mindset that if you don't trust yourself to carry chambered you probably shouldn't carry.

What about gun fights at contact distance? Are you going to kungfu your way to safety and then shoot someone?

1/20/2013 8:55:02 AM

Quote :

"What about gun fights at contact distance? Are you going to kungfu your way to safety and then shoot someone?"

Even on a loaded chamber, this might be your only option. You have to protect yourself first, the gun can't always be your first option. For instance, at a conversational distance the bad guys presents a knife, I'm going for the knife because I would rather get my hand(s) and arm(s) sliced (if it came to that) a couple of times before I would go for my weapon and let him have a relatively clean shot at vital areas. That just my mindset and training; YMMV.

In a fight, the bad guy will ultimately control what happens.

1/20/2013 12:44:53 PM

This is why I always try to buy conceal holsters that lock the gun to me in some way, at minimum a tight fit that will only release with a deliberate draw pattern. At close range like the youtube video Hiro posted I still intend to fight like I would with no gun in order to distance myself from the attacker, I don't want it falling out or easily dislodged. Obviously depends on the situation but I'd rather be stabbed while getting away than give him my gun. Pulling a gun at that range is incredibly dangerous no matter who you are, especially so for the great majority of civilians like myself that have never had any CQC training.

That said, the only pistol I don't presently CC chambered is my Glock and that will probably change when I get a better IWB holster for it. My 1911 is always carried cocked and locked, and now my P226 carried chambered and decocked for the DA pull.

[Edited on January 20, 2013 at 1:18 PM. Reason : ^ or i could have just read this post]

1/20/2013 1:17:44 PM

^^Do you guys get a lot of counter knife training?

I'm not fucking with a dude with a knife. I'm not going to grab it or wrestle him for it. I'm going to create enough space to give him the old gut shot.

1/20/2013 1:58:44 PM

^ With my last job, we had quite a bit of counter knife training. That said, I'm generally of your mindset if its possible to break and create enough distance. Don't want to fuck around with a knife if I can help it.

1/20/2013 2:58:28 PM

^^Yes - mirror drills, range rover, etc.

Most progressive LE training barrows a lot from the military but its such a different animal all together; contact is much more closer in proximity in the everyday (traffic stops, field contacts, who stole your lawnmower?) routine. At my prior agency, we had several S.P.E.A.R. instructors and almost all of our training (force on force, building searches, firearms) relied heavily on it. I miss the drill where everyone faces the wall and the instructor taps two guys and you turn around, find the threat and act.

Nowadays, I get to shoot twice a year and maybe do one session of protective tactics.

In other news, I if anyone is interested I still have an AIMPOINT PRO for-sale w/ a DD BUIS. I might also part w/ my ESEE-3mil knife (comes w/ molle jump sheath and boot clip).

1/20/2013 4:36:13 PM

nvm. i'll do my research.

[Edited on January 20, 2013 at 8:30 PM. Reason : trying not to be lazy here.]

1/20/2013 8:28:35 PM

Quote :

"Question: am I the only person on earth that doesn't keep a bullet chambered?"

I prefer to not keep one in the chamber. Although I trust myself with my guns and I trust their manufacturer, I also tend to favor having one last "mental check" before I am ready to fire. I've been this way since I was first taught how to use a gun when I was very little, and I'd prefer to not change my method now.

1/20/2013 8:37:36 PM

hell, i keep a couple of them chambered even when sitting in my safe.

1/20/2013 9:16:32 PM

I always have one chambered if I'm carrying it.
If it is in a holster, there is one chambered, in the safe or not.
If it is not holstered, not loaded, not even a mag in it.

1/20/2013 9:23:28 PM

I think I've just about decided to build a Kushnapup (bullpup conversion) out of my new Saiga 12 when it arrives.

1/20/2013 9:29:41 PM

uuggghh

1/20/2013 10:25:27 PM

^^ Doesn't that run the risk of making an already dubiously reliable gun even more unreliable? And make an already unpleasant trigger even worse?

I love Saiga 12's, don't get me wrong, it just seems like a bad idea to bullpup it. I'm all for restoring it to proper AK style pistol grip and stock and all that though

1/21/2013 10:28:16 AM

^ exactly what i was thinking but, he has another one so maybe he doesn't care?

1/21/2013 10:52:15 AM

^ Ah, if Duke has two, then by all means proceed with the bullpupping

1/21/2013 11:32:43 AM

i ordered an Zastava m76 in 8mm mauser

4 month delay tho...

1/21/2013 11:52:38 AM

Picked this up today: Spikes Tactical .22LR w/ 3 Black Dog mags and fake suppressor.

1/21/2013 4:53:44 PM

Nice. I saw that online. Sweet setup

I've got the same 22 upper. Not jazzed up like that though.

1/21/2013 5:38:57 PM

apparently CSC doesn't like hotlinking.

1/21/2013 6:48:51 PM

What do you all think of the sig mpx-c I just wish it was in 45 acp

1/21/2013 7:08:08 PM

I think it will be one of the MP5 replacements, or that is the purpose.
I don't think it will make it to market, or won't last long there, because of the muzzle device.
That is essentially a mono-core suppressor design, and it is way to easy to slide a tube over it, and have a home made can.
The ATF wouldn't allow the GSG-5 with a full barrel shroud, so this is going to get killed quickly I would guess.

Overall I do like it though.

1/21/2013 7:13:17 PM

Yeah, when I saw it I thought about the mp5 replacement. It just has that look. yeah would be so nice to sbr it. Or if you could get the full auto . But like you said we will never see it here. Going to keep my eye on it.

1/21/2013 7:24:39 PM

Quote :

"I don't think it will make it to market, or won't last long there, because of the muzzle device. That is essentially a mono-core suppressor design, and it is way to easy to slide a tube over it, and have a home made can."

I was wondering why the baffles were facing the wrong direction for a compensator.

1/21/2013 7:49:51 PM

http://www.slickguns.com/product/independence-ammunition-556x45mm-nato-55-grain-m193-case-500-25-boxes-20-site-down-21999


.223 in stock it seems

1/22/2013 12:47:42 PM

I just want to be able to buy 22LR again.

1/22/2013 3:21:03 PM

^ I've got a buddy trying to get rid of either 2k or 4k rounds of 22 in Clayton. Can't remember the details but pm me if you want his info.

1/22/2013 6:56:45 PM

if he's getting rid of it at a decent price, id be interested. im talking like $.03-.04

1/22/2013 7:03:47 PM

Sorry, just sent me a text that he traded the .22 so ignore my previous post.

[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 7:39 PM. Reason : Sold]

1/22/2013 7:11:50 PM

40 percent of gun purchases are private sales, the majority of which require no background check

gun hoarders that sell and trade weapons privately are responsible for arming our nation's criminals

1/22/2013 9:10:25 PM