Quote :

"That man committed murder in cold blood. Nothing he did can be construed as right. "

you and i weren't in the courtroom, so i'm sure we don't know everything, but i'll lay out what i happen to believe happened, based on what i've read.

i think that Lt. Pantano saw enough to know that the 2 guys in question were insurgent fighters. I think that he also knew that if he detained them and had them interrogated, there was a pretty good chance that they would be released to go terrorize local iraqis and bomb U.S. servicemen again. i think he did what he felt he had to do.


of course, that's assuming that his disgruntled RTO's case against him is 100% legit. those two guys very well could've made a move against him just like he says.

i've met a couple of guys who personally know Pantano and the Sgt. they have nothing but good things to say about Pantano (i mean, the dude's record and history is STELLAR), and nothing good to say about the Sgt (i'm sure you have to really suck to be demoted from squad leader, in charge of a third of the platoon's men, to RTO, where you're right by the Lt's side where he can watch you all the time)


i mean, maybe i'm wrong. it's all a guessing game to everyone except for Illario Pantano. if i had to make a wager, though, i'd give myself pretty good odds with what i posted above.

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 3:35 PM. Reason : fsasdfa]

8/9/2005 3:32:23 PM

well if you didn't somebody else would

its not paranoia - i know how soapbox works

8/9/2005 3:35:26 PM

if you kill 20 terrorists, the government throws in one free state-side kill

8/9/2005 3:35:46 PM

make that one count.

8/9/2005 3:36:40 PM

^Hadn't heard that much of the inside bit. Yeah that does say a lot about the RTO. I agree anyways, i wasn't there. I put my trust in the man on the ground dealing with the always stessful situation of Iraq. Its waaaayyyyy to easy to quarterback from the couch at home. Having been in similar frustrating and highly explosive situations, as always, I go with the man on the ground.

As for nut, again.....i don't personally go around complaining, wasn't my post in the first place. However, being one of those rare beings that was in the Army prior to SEP 11, and having posted this on the wolf web long before then. 2 years prior I believe, I will once again relay the poem of Rudyard Kipling's, Tommy, a poet for soldiers who knows what love is and isn't.

Quote :

"Tommy I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o'beer, The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here." The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die, I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I: O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away"; But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play, The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play, O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play. I went into a theatre as sober as could be, They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me; They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls, But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls! For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside"; But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide, The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide, O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide. Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap; An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit. Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll, The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll, O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll. We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too, But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you; An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints: Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints; While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind," But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind, There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind, O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind. You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all: We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational. Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace. For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! "

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 3:40 PM. Reason : .]

8/9/2005 3:38:21 PM

I tend to trust an NCO who has put his time in the military over a man who only recieved his rank because of a college degree. And no matter if the men murdered were insurgents, when Pantano took justice into his own hands and killed two individuals who posed no threat at the time, he violated killed in cold blood.

Quote :

" As for nut, again.....i don't personally go around complaining, wasn't my post in the first place. However, being one of those rare beings that was in the Army prior to SEP 11, and having posted this on the wolf web long before then. 2 years prior I believe, I will once again relay the poem of Rudyard Kipling's, Tommy, a poet for soldiers who knows what love is and isn't."

I don't care when you joined the military. Being in the military doesn't give you a get out of jail free card when you fuck up.

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 3:47 PM. Reason : .]

8/9/2005 3:46:08 PM

Quote :

"having posted this on the wolf web long before then. 2 years prior I believe"

unless you posted it under a different username on ncsu.2y.net, I don't think you did

and furthermore, was ncsu.2y.net even alive in '99??

8/9/2005 3:46:23 PM

99 or 00 don't remeber exactly, but yes.....ask my old nemesis OEPII, formerly known as Trapezius i believe. he likes to keep my old posts on file.

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 3:49 PM. Reason : .]

8/9/2005 3:48:50 PM

yes, fuckland has been around that long.


And by the way, Imperialist Kipling isn't the best person to quote when you are trying to make the miitary seem good.

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 4:05 PM. Reason : .]

8/9/2005 4:02:20 PM

Quote :

"I tend to trust an NCO who has put his time in the military over a man who only recieved his rank because of a college degree. "

first of all, saying that a Marine Lieutenant only earned his rank because of a college degree is ridiculous. We're trained more severely and more thoroughly, and held to a higher standard. The Vietnam stereotype of the incompetant Lt, straight out of college, just doesn't fly.

furthermore, Pantano was prior enlisted. He was an infantry (and later scout-sniper) NCO...i believe he was a Sgt, but maybe he was a Cpl. either way, whatever. He'd gotten out and had a job in NYC making somewhere north of 6-figures, but decided to go back in as an officer when the Iraq war started. This was actually part of the case against him--the prosecution basically argued that he was a bloodthirsty psychopath for joining back up to go to Iraq.

Pantano graduated #1 in TBS and IOC, the two schools that new Lieutenants go through (TBS is where i just finished; IOC is kinda sorta the USMC counterpart to Ranger School, except it's mostly for Lieutenants and Warrant Officers).


I don't think the defame Pantano and praise the dirtbag Sgt who accused him argument is gonna get you anywhere.

8/9/2005 4:04:37 PM

well, Patano doens't need me to defame him. He's already done it himself.

8/9/2005 4:06:32 PM

Well, I've already said that I think that, legally speaking, he's a murderer. I'll even go so far as to say that taking matters into his own hands like that is a grey area.

I won't condemn him further than that.

8/9/2005 4:08:23 PM

Quote :

"yes, fuckland has been around that long."

question is, was ncsu.2y.net around before sept. 11, 1999

8/9/2005 4:13:53 PM

no, no it didn't.

8/9/2005 4:17:21 PM

So you base your racism on the tales of one or a handful of people who go through sf training? I bet I could go find 5 minorities at NC State and have a book written about the racist culture at NC State because of some bad experiences they've had.

I didn't even go to something as hard core as special forces, but I know that during our beatdowns, nothing was out of order behind closed doors. They want the pussies to wash out. If you're going to get your panties in a wad over getting called names, then you probably shouldn't be in the military, let alone the sf. You are supposed to be treated like shit - it's part of the process.

8/9/2005 4:27:43 PM

there is no need for racial slurs though.

8/9/2005 4:29:48 PM

yeah no need to call them niggars, wetbacks, spics, kikes, wops, greasers, or honkies, because god knows the enemy would never do something so terrible, let alone oh i don't know... KILL THEM.

8/9/2005 4:37:01 PM

yes, we should call them all those things so he'll love us and hate the enemy.

8/9/2005 4:42:44 PM

goalielax:

Quote :

"This is not your father's boot camp. Apparently, there have been some pretty big changes in the operating procedures of those infamous Army training centers where young men and women go to get, shall we say, seasoning for the rigors of military life. Veterans who went through the process 20 or 30 years ago might not recognize it today. And a lot of what they see, they might not like. The Pentagon has put military personnel on notice that it won't tolerate abuse or mistreatment of recruits by drill sergeants or anyone else. The higher-ups have even made an example of drill sergeants who may have gone too far in trying to mold green recruits into soldiers. Some of the sergeants have been court-martialed. When convicted, some have been demoted and dishonorably discharged. As the Pentagon's tougher policy takes hold, and word spreads, it's getting harder to find the sorts of instances of hazing and intimidation that have become legendary in military life. According to the new "regs," drill sergeants may address recruits only as "private" or "soldier" or by their surname. That certainly leaves out some of the more colorful expressions known to have been used by drill sergeants over the years. They also have to ask permission before laying their hands on a recruit. And at the end of the nine weeks of basic training, recruits are free to evaluate their experience with superior officers, including how they were treated and what they endured at the hands of drill sergeants."

original NYT story (free):
http://www.catholicpeacefellowship.org/print.asp?m=2362

original NYT story (pay):
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30616F7395B0C758EDDAE0894DD404482&incamp=archive:search

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 4:44 PM. Reason : s]

8/9/2005 4:43:16 PM

Unless you use the word imperialist, I don't think your going to get much of an answer out of him. Because god knows, it isn't as if every country that has succeeded in the world was somehow imperialist. The worlds a happy place with roses and fruit festivals. Imperialists are evil and touch little boys in their special place.

8/9/2005 4:45:10 PM

Kipling was an unabashed imperialist who viewed the european forces in africa and india as civilizing people. Sorry you have such a narrow view of the world.

8/9/2005 4:47:11 PM

Kiplings poem wasn't about imperialism, it was about the common foot soldier.

But go ahead and write off of all of his literary work because of his outdated political views. Sorry you have such a narrow view of the world.

8/9/2005 4:52:37 PM

Quote :

"I tend to trust an NCO who has put his time in the military over a man who only recieved his rank because of a college degree. And no matter if the men murdered were insurgents, when Pantano took justice into his own hands and killed two individuals who posed no threat at the time, he violated killed in cold blood."

There are a lot of good NCOs, but by God, have I not met a few (a minority) incompetent NCOs. I guess the same can also be said for lieutenants as well, though.

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 9:03 PM. Reason : .]

8/9/2005 9:01:06 PM

I heard of an NCO that stabbed himself with a Kbar while demonstrating safety to PFCs.

8/9/2005 9:19:15 PM

nerdBoy, if you actually think that everything put out to the press is the only thing that happens in the military, you've got another thing coming to you. And boot camp if a hell of a fucking different story from special forces training. stop quoting shit like you know what you're talking about.

8/10/2005 3:19:09 PM

Quote :

"Kiplings poem wasn't about imperialism, it was about the common foot soldier. But go ahead and write off of all of his literary work because of his outdated political views. Sorry you have such a narrow view of the world."

I'm not writing off Kipling's works of literature. I'm writing off the political views he expoused in them. and mr. Joshua, Tommy while being about the common foot soldier was mainly about British imperialism.

8/10/2005 3:47:13 PM

Quote :

"Tommy while being about the common foot soldier was mainly about British imperialism."

How did you come to that conclusion?

8/10/2005 3:55:55 PM

It's called reading the damn poem and actually thinking about what it means.

8/10/2005 4:30:22 PM

Well, no shit. I would still like to hear how you came to that conclusion, as "Tommy" isn't viewed as a poem with imperialistic undertones.

8/10/2005 5:18:38 PM

Article I

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

Article II

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

Article III

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

Article IV

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

Article V

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

Article VI

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

8/10/2005 5:35:00 PM