Quote :

"But I would recomend checking out Gary Becker's paper "Crime and Punishment" to further your understanding of the causes of crime (it isn't as simple as you think, and Becker hardly has the last word either)."

I hope I never claimed that poverty was the only cause of crime, but if Becker thinks that it isn't a major contributory to many types he can take his book and give himself a prostate massage with it. I look at Cary, I don't see a crime-ridden hellhole. I look at my neighbors on Method and I see rock-slinging dealers, flares of violence, frequent theft, and emaciated prostitutes. Anecdotal? Sure, but I'm willing to throw down mucho dinero that stats back me up.

Quote :

"To avoid a quote bombing contest i'm just going to respond to your first point (since it's the only one relevant to this thread)."

If they're irrelevant (and they aren't, you're just a prick), you're to blame...I only answered questions that you asked.

The second point is particularly important to what we are discussing because it explains why, having theoretically established that charity is good, the government should have to extort it from people, as it were.

Quote :

"So far, your opinion of what the government should do seems to be policies that maximizes the "welfare" or "happiness" or "well being" of a nation's citizens."

Eh...not so sure. It's the government's job to protect those things, not necessarily maximize it, because there are other things in the balance -- namely, the preservation of individual liberty. Unlike what the extremists will undoubtedly scream, I will maintain -- perhaps despite the lack of firm logic to back it up -- that a compromise between prosperity and liberty is the best thing going.

And the issue gets bigger. A nation with citizens who aren't poor is stronger than an otherwise equal nation with citizens who aren't, so it is better able to defend itself (another big job of government) in most respects.

Ultimately it appears clear to me, looking at history, that allowing poverty in a country to sink to certain levels sends the odds of major turmoil waaaaay up, and I'm quite confident that one government job is to stop civil strife. Right now we're at least satisfying that requirement -- the nation's poor might be a little prone to crime, but they aren't going to start handing out pictures of Mao and shooting everyone with a BMW, either. What I can't say (and won't risk) is whether or not things would get that bad if we laid off the aid a little bit.

8/18/2005 5:40:39 PM

While I do believe that desperation breeds criminality, it does not automatically follow that mere-poverty breeds criminal behavior. I know there is a correlation between poverty and criminality, but it has not been proven that there is a causation. Perhaps the types of individuals that are predisposed towards criminal activity are also predisposed towards poverty.

It makes sense to believe that people with a predisposition towards criminal behavior will find it difficult to hold down a job or get promoted. The argument that criminality breeds poverty has a very high correlation too, as detroit and baltimore were hard hit by crack related criminality before the desperate poverty we see nowadays became common.

[Edited on August 18, 2005 at 6:36 PM. Reason : sp]

8/18/2005 6:34:42 PM

Quote :

"^ he also got killed by mexicans. MEXICANS! Either he was lucky enough to find the only Mexican not asleep or drunk, or he was the worst soldier of all time. "

8/18/2005 6:35:22 PM

Quote :

"but the fact is, those taxes come from your average blue collar worker more than anyone else."

No, not true. Our government does NOT receive the majority of its taxes from average joe worker. These are from the 2001 tax year statistics, the latest year that the IRS has.

  Income >=  |  % of all returns  |  % of taxable income  |  % of taxes |
-------------+--------------------+-----------------------+-------------+
 $1,000,000  |        0.1         |         12.2          |     18.5    |
-------------+--------------------+-----------------------+-------------+
 $100,000    |        8.5         |         48.6          |     62.1    |
-------------+--------------------+-----------------------+-------------+
 $50,000     |       28.8         |         78.9          |     86.1    |

8/18/2005 6:53:29 PM

Quote :

"Perhaps the types of individuals that are predisposed towards criminal activity are also predisposed towards poverty. It makes sense to believe that people with a predisposition towards criminal behavior will find it difficult to hold down a job or get promoted."

True, but how many of those people who end up as criminals were born significantly above the poverty line?

8/18/2005 7:24:55 PM

i think it was Reagan who said (paraphrased) the point of welfare is to get people off of it

i believe in teaching a man to fish

so you la sez faire myopians as well as you angst ridden/trendy t-shirt commies can eat a dick

8/18/2005 8:19:17 PM

^^^ something about that table doesnt make sense.

maybe i am reading it wrong, but adding the percentages, it leaves 62.6% of tax returns to those making under 50k a year.

but the figures as given, 166.7% of taxes are paid by those making over 50k a year.

help?

8/19/2005 10:16:32 AM

You can't add the percentages quite like that. The $50,000 line includes all people who make greater than or equal to $50k. So the data in that line already includes those who make more than 100k or one million dollars.

Those with an income greater than or equal to $50k make up 28.8% of all tax returns and pay 86.1% of all income taxes. All of those who make less than $50k comprise 71.2% of all returns filed and pay 13.9% of all income tax collected.

8/19/2005 11:42:13 AM