Doesnt matter what you think. The fact is that Vick wins and gets into the playoffs when healthy. If he had never been 'jured to begin with, maybe he would be a better passer. Not every qb has the same learning capabilites. Some try to hard and others not enough. Vick will give 100% whenever he is on the field. Thats all a coach ever wants because that will give you the chance to win.

8/25/2005 12:13:36 PM

Quote :

"If he had never been 'jured to begin with, maybe he would be a better passer"

If Jay Davis hadnt thrown any INTs maybe we would have have won the national championship last year

8/25/2005 12:16:12 PM

Quote :

"Wideouts are only as good as the guy throwing the ball to them."

Explain James Thrash, Freddie Mitchell, Todd Pinkston then



They had McNabb throwing them the ball and they were wickedly bad.

8/25/2005 12:18:08 PM

the term was "only as good"... not "is as good"...

basically, you look at the Detroit Wideouts... Roy Williams, Charles Rodgers, and Mike Williams are "only as good" as Harrington...

8/25/2005 12:24:37 PM

slightly unrelated...but is Harrington even gonna be the starter this year? I thought Garcia or somebody was 1st on the depth chart?

8/25/2005 12:28:42 PM

^ pretty sure its still Harrington.

8/25/2005 12:29:18 PM

Quote :

"Vick couldn't hit the broad side of a barn"

8/25/2005 1:22:28 PM

It's still Harrington but Garcia will likely come in when Detroit gives up on Joey.

8/25/2005 1:25:09 PM

^But he had a billboard in Times Square!

8/25/2005 1:28:03 PM

harrington has everything he needs - a running game worth respecting, a first since el barry retired; and a decent passing game with 3 WRs, AND a tight end (which they haven't had since rodney holman). dunno about their o-line though.


he should be fine this year. he knows what he's up against

8/25/2005 2:05:11 PM

Quote :

"Vick couldn't hit the broad side of a barn"

But he could run around it faster than any other QB!

8/25/2005 2:54:35 PM

You guys are fucking idiots honestly.


Quick someone show me the Falcons record with Vick starting the last 3 years.

Then show me the Falcons record without Vick starting the last 3 years.


Off the top of my head I'm gonna guess they win about 75% of their games with him starting and about 18% without him starting.


Based SOLELY on passing he is not one of the top 15 Quarterbacks in the game, no doubt.

But when you factor in his rushing ability, his big play ability, his ability to come up with drive-saving plays, he is one of the top 5 QB's in the game without a doubt.

Without a doubt.

There is NO way you can argue that he isn't a top 5 QB in the league right now, you simply can't.

This is like arguing that Greg Maddux was never that good of a pitcher because he didn't have one of the best fastballs in the game.

Or that Michael Jordan wasn't great because he didn't lead the league in rebounds like Bill Russell.

We are talking about a YOUNG QB who already has playoff wins to prove that he is one of the top performers in the game.

8/25/2005 4:58:38 PM

vick sucks

8/25/2005 5:04:15 PM

Quote :

"Based SOLELY on passing he is not one of the top 15 Quarterbacks in the game, no doubt. "

THATS ALL WE'RE TRYING TO SAY

and the jordan comparison is TOTALLY WORTHLESS cause its not a guards job to rebound

8/25/2005 5:05:29 PM

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Duante Culpeper
Donovan McNabb
Brett Favre


the question? name 5 QB's you'd have on your team before michael vick.

8/25/2005 5:06:13 PM

Favre is too old. I put Vick right there w/ Daunte. The other three are deserving.

8/25/2005 5:10:11 PM

Delhomme led his team to a Superbowl

8/25/2005 5:12:17 PM

Here is a comparison i think is interesting

look at michael vick's statistics from last season, where they reached the NFC championship game (also 2002 season is a good comparison):
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/VickMi00.htm
look at eric crouch's statistics for his heisman season, and college career totals
http://www.ecrouch.com/html/stats1.shtml

those statistics look pretty similar (given crouches #'s are a little lower, but for fewer games)

so why did the rams draft crouch to be a WR?

(i hardly follow college football, but i just remembered that he won the heisman and was more of a runner, like vick; the comparison could be terrible, i don't know)

8/25/2005 5:25:40 PM

Look a Quarterback being good is all about putting him in the correct system.


Peyton Manning is in a perfect situation. He has a stud Running Back, a stud WR, a stud TE, and two other good WR's. He also has maybe the best pass blocking OL in the league.

That being said, he's still an awesome QB and his numbers prove that.


Tom Brady is in a perfect situation for him. He has a stud RB. He has multiple WR's/TE's and a pretty effective pass blocking OL. He moves EXTREMELY well in the pocket and that allows him to find his receivers and march the ball down the field.


Michael Vick is in the anti-perfect situation. He has two good (NOT STUD) RB's one of which is never healthy. He has a #2 WR in Peerless Price, no #1 WR, and a stud Tight End. He is in the West Coast offense which prides itself on QUICK decisions and short timing routes.

It's obvious Vick is not the most cerebral QB. It's obvious he doesn't have the MOST accurate arm.

Even still he went 11-3 last season. How can you argue with those results???

He helped put one of the biggest playoff asswhippings of all time on the STL Rams.... 47-17 for gods sake.

HE got stifled by the Eagles defense and the Buccaneers defense in the playoffs twice. That's because each team said hey lets focus every bit of defensive attention on MIchael Vick and make someone else beat us. And the Falcons didnt have enough weapons to counter that strategy with.

So what????

Peyton Manning gets his ass raped by the Patriots every year DESPITE having a plethora of other options of offense.

Vick is probably as close to a One Man team as you will ever see in the NFL. And he's been successful at it.

You think Brady would be winning SUper Bowls in Atlanta???? I'd wager he wouldn't even make the playoffs...

8/25/2005 5:42:20 PM

ok let's look at some numbers. last year the godly michael vick made it to the playoffs, so i'm going to assume you consider that a good year for him. i'm looking at passing and rushing stats combined, so we can see the full contribution made by every player.

The following chart shows player rankings for Total TDs (Pass and Rush) and uses Total Yds (Pass and Rush) to deal with ties. (Hopefully the formatting comes out alright)

Rank	 Player	                Att     Cmp      Yd	 TD	Int	Rate	Att	Yd	Avg	TD	TOTAL TD TOTAL YDS
1st	Manning, Peyton QB	497	336	4557	49	10	121.1	25	38	1.5	0	49	4595
2nd	Culpepper, Daunte QB	548	379	4717	39	11	110.9	89	406	4.6	2	41	5123
3rd	McNabb, Donovan QB	469	300	3875	31	8	104.7	42	221	5.3	3	34	4096
4th	Favre, Brett QB 	540	346	4088	30	17	92.4	16	36	2.2	0	30	4124
5th	Delhomme, Jake QB	533	310	3886	29	15	87.3	25	71	2.8	1	30	3957
6th	Brees, Drew QB  	400	262	3159	27	7	104.8	53	85	1.6	2	29	3244
7th	Plummer, Jake QB 	522	303	4089	27	20	84.4	60	215	3.6	1	28	4304
8th	Brady, Tom QB   	474	288	3690	28	14	92.5	43	28	0.7	0	28	3718
9th	Green, Trent QB 	556	369	4589	27	17	95.2	25	85	3.4	0	27	4674
10th	Brooks, Aaron QB 	542	309	3810	21	16	79.5	57	199	3.5	4	25	4009
11th	Bulger, Marc QB 	485	321	3964	21	14	93.7	19	89	4.7	3	24	4053
12th	Hasselbeck, Matt  SEA	474	279	3382	22	15	83.1	28	94	3.4	1	23	3476
13th	Collins, Kerry QB 	513	289	3495	21	20	74.8	17	35	2.1	0	21	3530
14th	Bledsoe, Drew QB 	450	256	2932	20	16	76.6	21	52	2.5	0	20	2984
15th	Griese, Brian QB 	336	233	2632	20	12	97.5	30	17	0.6	0	20	2649
16th	Harrington, Joey QB	489	274	3047	19	12	77.5	49	175	3.6	0	19	3222
17th	Palmer, Carson QB	432	263	2897	18	18	77.3	18	47	2.6	1	19	2944
18th	Volek, Billy QB 	357	218	2485	18	10	87.1	11	50	4.5	1	19	2535
19th	Testaverde, Vinny QB	495	297	3532	17	20	76.4	20	42	2.1	1	18	3574
20th	Roethlisberger, Ben QB	295	196	2621	17	11	98.1	56	144	2.6	1	18	2765
21st	Vick, Michael QB 	321	181	2313	14	12	78.1	121	902	7.5	3	17	3215

Rank	Player	               Att	Cmp	Yd	TD	Int	Rate	Att	Yd	Avg	TD	TOTAL TD  TOTAL YDS
1at	Culpepper, Daunte QB	548	379	4717	39	11	110.9	89	406	4.6	2	41	5123
2nd	Green, Trent QB 	556	369	4589	27	17	95.2	25	85	3.4	0	27	4674
3rd	Manning, Peyton QB	497	336	4557	49	10	121.1	25	38	1.5	0	49	4595
4th	Plummer, Jake QB	522	303	4089	27	20	84.4	60	215	3.6	1	28	4304
5th	Favre, Brett QB 	540	346	4088	30	17	92.4	16	36	2.2	0	30	4124
6th	McNabb, Donovan QB	469	300	3875	31	8	104.7	42	221	5.3	3	34	4096
7th	Bulger, Marc QB 	485	321	3964	21	14	93.7	19	89	4.7	3	24	4053
8th	Brooks, Aaron QB 	542	309	3810	21	16	79.5	57	199	3.5	4	25	4009
9th	Delhomme, Jake QB	533	310	3886	29	15	87.3	25	71	2.8	1	30	3957
10th	Carr, David QB  	468	286	3539	16	14	83.4	72	303	4.2	0	16	3842
11th	Brady, Tom QB 	        474	288	3690	28	14	92.5	43	28	0.7	0	28	3718
12th	Testaverde, Vinny QB	495	297	3532	17	20	76.4	20	42	2.1	1	18	3574
13th	Collins, Kerry QB	513	289	3495	21	20	74.8	17	35	2.1	0	21	3530
14th	Hasselbeck, Matt QB	474	279	3382	22	15	83.1	28	94	3.4	1	23	3476
15th	Brees, Drew QB  	400	262	3159	27	7	104.8	53	85	1.6	2	29	3244
16th	Harrington, Joey QB	489	274	3047	19	12	77.5	49	175	3.6	0	19	3222
17th	Vick, Michael QB 	321	181	2313	14	12	78.1	121	902	7.5	3	17	3215

8/25/2005 6:31:11 PM

haha I love the Vick haters. You all are just pissed because your team doesnt have him. Shit, I bet we can find something wrong with Lebron and why he sucks on the Cavs. But there isnt a GM that wouldn't kill to have him on their team. Like it has been said before. Vick wins games. He puts fear into the opposing teams defense, and his athletic ability alone wins the games. So what if his passing isn't top notch. The only thing that matters is those few times a game when he breaks away and runs a TD by destroying a defense or catches a receiver open. So fuck it, his overall stats might not be that good, but he makes the plays when they are needed and gets the games one. What would you rather have? Him throw for 10,000 yds in a season and rush for 3,000 and never score a touchdown, or have average stats, but score when it matters most and set up his team to score. Exactly. So stfu.

8/25/2005 6:46:31 PM

ron mexico show on at 8pm on espn1

8/25/2005 6:47:51 PM

i just proved why he sucks at doing what you say he's good at.

8/25/2005 6:48:39 PM

Does Vick win games? Yes. Who gives a fuck what his overall stats are.

8/25/2005 6:54:26 PM

there's 11 guys on that football team. dunn and duckett were responsible for the falcons season last year just as much as vick. i'm not saying vick is completely worthless, but i wouldn't even rank him in the top 10 at the quarterback position, let alone top 5.

8/25/2005 6:59:03 PM

Then Manning must suck too since he has a good receiver?

8/25/2005 7:08:59 PM

ok so you're trying to argue that vick is God because he has crappy stats, and that manning sucks because he has awesome stats?

8/25/2005 7:12:27 PM

when statistics substitute for critical thinking: the ncWOLFsu story

8/25/2005 7:17:26 PM

No, I am going to say Vick is good because he wins games. Just take a look at the win loss records when Vick plays, and when he doesnt. They should speak for themselves.

8/25/2005 7:23:12 PM

^^ok, with quarterbacks you have stats on paper and you have intangibles. are you seriously trying to tell me that with those stats i posted, his intangibles somehow miraculously propel this guy into the top 5 quarterbacks? top 10, even?

you can't be serious

8/25/2005 7:52:29 PM

Yes, I am. He is the best athelete in the league. He is one of the fastest, and has more god given raw talent than anyone. So yeah, thats what I am saying and I am serious.

8/25/2005 8:09:34 PM

so according to those stats, vick is responsible for only 17 TD's (half of the offensive TD's, less than half total TD's) and 17th in TOTAL YARDS (yes, rushing included).

yet his team managed to win 11 games.

I think that means the rest of his team must have been a huge factor in their # of victories, especially the defense.

When Vick passes for 30+ touchdowns, I'll consider him a great QB

8/25/2005 8:17:04 PM

Ok, so explain to me how when Vick doesnt play. They rarely win? I am not saying that the Falcons as a team don't contribute. But Vick is one of, if not the main factor that they consistently win games. You are a fucking idiot if you don't think he is one of the top 5 QBs in the league. Not top 5 in stats, but top 5 overall as a QB. He and Manning are prolly the only 2 QBs that teams do not want to face. And I would say Vick is at the top because when he is on his A game, he is almost unstoppable. And if he had some top talent at the receiver position like Cullpepper and Manning do, his passing stats would obviously be better. Its kinda like last year with Randy Johnson, his stats werent all that good because his team blew, but he had one hell of a year. So what if Vick mainly runs the ball. If that gets the job done and wins games, why the fuck would you wanna pass more? His style is running and he is damn good at it. Who is "your team" anyway?

8/25/2005 8:22:55 PM

Watch the game on ESPN right now and listen to the commentators and watch Vick play. You all who are hating on him are fucking morons. Its almost funny how hard you try to hate on the guy, but he backs up all the shit he portrays.

Quote :

"When Vick passes for 30+ touchdowns, I'll consider him a great QB"

Like I said, why does he have to be a great passer to be considered a good QB?? He is redefining the position and obviously running is a big part of his game. I mean shit as if rushing for 900yds as a QB isnt enough for you

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 8:27 PM. Reason : ..]

8/25/2005 8:25:47 PM

yeah i mean, obviously being responsible for half of your team's scoring is good, but i mean the facts are all there. yes he is ridiculously athletic, but those stats reflect what he does with it. his 900 rushing yards as a qb are unprecidented. his 2300 passing yards aren't.

manning was 2 touchdowns shy of tripling vick's combined touch down numbers. some of you rank vick "right up there with" culpepper's 41 total td's and 5123 total yards... i don't think so.

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 8:30 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2005 8:27:25 PM

I could give a fuck less how much of 'a QB' he is. He leads his team and wins games in the playoffs. Something Peyton can't seem to do.

8/25/2005 8:29:46 PM

ok how the fuck is he "top 5 overall as a quarterback"?? what else is there to look at? i showed you how he ranks passing and rushing, what the fuck else does he do? just because the falcons suck without their starting quarterback doesn't mean he is top 5 in the nfl. a lot of teams would lose more games if you took away their starting quarterback. vick is the best player on the falcons, but that says absolutely nothing about how he stacks up against the rest of the players in the NFL.

the quarterback isn't the only player on the team. it takes a team effort to succeed and win super bowls. dan marino never won a super bowl, are you going to tell me michael vick is better "as an overall quarterback" than dan marino was?

and it isn't exactly the most difficult thing in the world to make the fucking NFC championship game... the falcons would NOT have made it there in the AFC

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 8:32 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2005 8:30:39 PM

Like I said, stats arent all that make a great QB. And neither is PASSING! Jesuss. How many times does Vick scramble and get a 1st down by himself. Or break away and get a huge gain for the team? Yes, there are blockers, but Vick is getting them because of his speed and talent. They have a pretty good running game that they put into use in the red zone that limits his TDs. And I by no means think he is a good passer, average at best. But overall, he is top 5 easy. If you are gonna bring stats into the game, you can say Manning is only an average QB because his rushing yards arent anywhere near good. I'd really like to see it set in stone somewhere that to be a good QB, you HAVE to have good passing stats.

You a fucking idiot for thinking that stats are all that matters in sports. Talk to pretty much anyone who knows anything about Football and Vick will be in their top 5.

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 8:32 PM. Reason : .]

8/25/2005 8:31:10 PM

dude, my stats include the rushing too

8/25/2005 8:32:50 PM

Quote :

"Watch the game on ESPN right now and listen to the commentators and watch Vick play. You all who are hating on him are fucking morons. Its almost funny how hard you try to hate on the guy, but he backs up all the shit he portrays. When Vick passes for 30+ touchdowns, I'll consider him a great QB Like I said, why does he have to be a great passer to be considered a good QB?? He is redefining the position and obviously running is a big part of his game. I mean shit as if rushing for 900yds as a QB isnt enough for you "

that's the beauty of those stats, the 900 yards are accounted for in the ranking, so 3200 total yards only makes him 17th for quarterbacks. And he is also only 21st for quarterbacks in scoring (17 td's).

If he is so overwhelmingly responsible for their success, where is the evidence?

I don't hate Vick as a quarterback by any means. But his athletic ability alone doesn't make him a better quarterback than all the other guys who can be more productive by moving the football (TOTAL yards) and scoring (TOTAL touchdowns)

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 8:36 PM. Reason : fixed quotes]

8/25/2005 8:34:16 PM

So Cullpepper is a top 5 QB because his overall stats are good, but he cant win games. Even though he has/had a better offensice weapon in Randy Moss. Do you honestly know how much better Vick would be if he had Randy Moss to throw to??

8/25/2005 8:35:22 PM

You are forgetting that included in those 900yds rushing are so many badass plays that won games for his team that its not even funny. Like I posted early, stats dont mean shit because you dont know the situations in which they occur.

Wait, let me rephrase, they do mean something, but not everything.

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 8:36 PM. Reason : .]

8/25/2005 8:36:25 PM

we don't know how much better he can be because he hasn't proven that

ok so say he does get on a good offensive team, and he does become a productive quarterback (gets lots of yards and lots of points), then I'll consider him a top 5 QB

he gets average offensive stats on an average-above average offensive team, not very impressive

8/25/2005 8:39:32 PM

obviously vick is going to be better than 21st or 17th overall quarterback. accounting for the stuff you cant see on paper, i'd put him in the top 15, not higher. i'm not saying he'll never change that, but right now that's where i'd rank him.

good quarterbacks make the receivers they have better, not the other way around. just look at jeff blake and carl pickens at cincinnati in the 90's. pickens was a nobody until blake became the starter and started getting him better looks. then 2 years ago blake got boldin started in arizona. when mcnown was in there, boldin's stats were nowhere near as good. but i bet you'll try to tell me the stats don't matter and that boldin was better "overall as a receiver" with mcnown in there or something stupid like that.

do you really think Brandon Stokely would have gotten 10 touchdowns with anyone other than Peyton Manning throwing him the ball? the dude was the 3rd string WR. When Moss went down, Culpeper turned Burleson and Robinson into excellent targets, enough so that they decided they don't need Moss and I think they'll do fine this year without him.

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 8:46 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2005 8:43:21 PM

Lets look at it this way. Week 2 of the NFL season. Vicks team wins the game, and in that game, he only had 90 yds rushing and 20 yds passing. Pretty shitty stats. But if you watched the game, you would have seen that in one play in the 2nd qtr with the score tied at 14, Vick broke away from a pass rush and ran for 37 yds setting up a 2yd run for a TD by Dunn. The next possesion he scrambles and only runs for 10yds total, but each play got his team a critical 1st down that they badly needed. Later, he runs 43 yds down to the 14yd line and sets his team up for another score. Now, his stats are shit, but he won the game and obviously had a terrific game. Now, lets look at Cullpepper, and lets say he still has Randy Moss to throw to. Now Cullpepper has a badass game, throws for 500yds but none for TDs, gets sacked a few times because he cant scramble all that well, and fails to score some first downs when he was under pressure and running. He also managed to tally up 100yds rushing. Well, Cullpeppers stats sure are better. They are fucking badass is what they are. He has a shitload more offensive yards, and they are both even on the TDs with 0. But there isnt a person alive that cant tell me that Vick didnt have the better game. So dont look at stats as the sole determination of how good a player is.

8/25/2005 8:46:15 PM

you are probably one of those people that think Terry Bradshaw is a quarterback god just because was on the Steelers and won 4 superbowls and a bunch of games

look at his productivity:
http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/players.nsf/ID/05110003

3339 + 111 Total yards in his best season => not that great
28 + 1 Total TD's in his best season => not that great
212:210 career TD:INT ratio => pretty terrible
51.9% career completion percent => not very good
70.9 career passer rating => hardly Hall of Fame quality

after looking at that, i wonder how he got voted into the hall of fame

8/25/2005 8:47:10 PM

but they aren't even on the td's

culpepper got 41 and vick got 17

^probably the 4 super bowl rings


and i'm not discounting those games vick has that don't look great on paper. if he single-handedly wins his team a super bowl or two with a couple 10 yard scrambles, then great, he can be the awesome quarterback you say he is. i just don't see that happening anytime soon.

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 8:50 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2005 8:48:43 PM

He got voted in BECAUSE HE KNEW HOW TO WIN GAMES! Look at my last post. Jesus fucking christ you people are too set on looking at paper stats and not what happens during the game.

^No shit, I said IN THAT GAME they were even, and asked who had the better game. Obviously Vick did even though his stats were way worse. The point of that post was to show stats dont mean as much as you make them out to.



[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 8:50 PM. Reason : .]

8/25/2005 8:49:38 PM

Quote :

"you are probably one of those people that think Terry Bradshaw is a quarterback god just because was on the Steelers and won 4 superbowls and a bunch of games "

You just lost any cred you might have had. God damn, if you dont think QBing 4 teams to super bowl wins doesnt make you a QB god, you are a complete fucking idiot.

8/25/2005 8:52:57 PM

i know stats don't mean everything, but they do mean a lot. how else do you compare players in the NFL?

i'm conceding that vick is better than what those stats show, but you're trying to propel him past 10-15 quarterbacks that did more for their teams with baseless opinions.

^i definitely agree that bradshaw was a great quarterback. if vick ever accomplishes half the things that bradshaw has, i'll admit i was wrong about him. i just don't think he will.

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 8:54 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2005 8:53:12 PM