Any person who has taken even an introductory, hell probably even a remedial logic course understand that it is not argumentum ad hominem to point out the bias of a person purporting to establish a fact. It is done in law all the time - what do you think the courtroom device of "impeachment" is?

9/11/2005 2:38:21 PM

Let's look at the logic.

Group 'A' produces study 'B'.
You claim group 'A' has motives and vested interests and such.
Thus you claim study 'B' is flawed.

That my friend is the very definition of ad hominem.

You can observe biases and motives and such all you want, but don't try to make it look like you are making some kind of arguement agianst the actual study, because you aren't.

9/11/2005 2:43:29 PM

Quote :

"Any person who has taken even an introductory, hell probably even a remedial logic course understand that it is not argumentum ad hominem to point out the bias of a person purporting to establish a fact"

Medicine is not like law. This medical study doesn't seek to provide fact as you stated. It's conclusion is only representative of the case studies that they reviewed. Other studies have different conclusions.

9/11/2005 2:52:06 PM

Wolfpack, I think you have misinterpreted my statements. I haven't attacked the Popes morals or honesty. I don't even know him (just like you don't know Lee, et. al.). By all appearences he seems to be a sincere, humble, and honest man. I just don't happen to believe that he is God's representative on earth. I believe he is human, like all other humans which have varying degrees of human frailty. I believe there is a long history of Popes that brings this out. All in all, I just prefer to think for myself.

In making the statement, I was just pointing out that he also has a vested interest in seeing that people become Catholic. That being said, I don't believe that his intent is to convert people to Catholisism for profit any more than I believe Lee et al's real goals are to kill babies for profit.

9/11/2005 2:55:25 PM

don't even bother arguing his "vested interest" shit, it's logically irrelevant

wolfpack would know that if he had any understanding of logic.

9/11/2005 2:59:33 PM

There was a large right up about the lee et. al. study. The editor for the journal is a strong catholic who is against abortion and she stands by the the study. So that negates much of wolfpack's argument about the vested interests.

[Edited on September 11, 2005 at 3:06 PM. Reason : .]

9/11/2005 3:03:33 PM

Quote :

"And if you commit more abortions, you get paid more. If you commit fewer abortions, you get paid less. And since most people would prefer to get paid more than to get paid less, it should be clear that abortionists want to commit as many abortions as possible. What is difficult to understand here?"

That's right. Hence your arguments about the value of life are worthless. You wanna live - hence you're inherently biased. gg, moron.

9/11/2005 3:18:48 PM

Quote :

"That my friend is the very definition of ad hominem."

Nope. Here's what you need to do - go to the Philosophy department, I think it's in Caldwell hall, and ask them if they have remedial logic courses you can sign up for. I'd recommend Professor Barbara Levenbook if she is still teaching. Or even ask for a tutor to help you - you might have to pay but judging from your posts here you would benefit greatly.

Quote :

"Medicine is not like law. This medical study doesn't seek to provide fact as you stated. It's conclusion is only representative of the case studies that they reviewed. Other studies have different conclusions."

Of course. And they colored the facts, colored their interpretation of the studies, etc, in order to reach the result they wanted. There are tons of other studies that disagreed. You can always color facts and interpretations in order to make them seem like how you want them to seem.

Quote :

"Wolfpack, I think you have misinterpreted my statements. I haven't attacked the Popes morals or honesty."

On the contrary. I said that the authors of this "study" have a vested interest in abortion, and so they lied and colored the facts in their "study". You compared the Pope's statement to this. In order for the comparison to fit, you imply that "the Pope has a vested interest in conversions.. and therefore he lied..."

Quote :

"In making the statement, I was just pointing out that he also has a vested interest in seeing that people become Catholic. That being said, I don't believe that his intent is to convert people to Catholisism for profit any more than I believe Lee et al's real goals are to kill babies for profit."

The statement I quoted was not a call to conversion. But Lee's "study" is designed to get rid of something that might cause women to think twice about having an abortion. Why don't you believe that the motivation is profit? Do you know how much money Planned PArenthood makes each year? Why is it so hard for you to believe that abortion is a profit based business?

9/11/2005 3:46:23 PM

Quote :

"How is it ridiculous? If I own a Burger King, I have a vested interest in selling as many Whoppers as possible. If I work at Sears, I have a vested interest in selling as many TV's or refrigerators or what not as possible. If I am a dentist, I have a vested interest in cleaning as many people's teeth as possible. I thought this was common sense. What do you think abortion is? It is a business. You commit an abortion, you get paid. And if you commit more abortions, you get paid more. If you commit fewer abortions, you get paid less. And since most people would prefer to get paid more than to get paid less, it should be clear that abortionists want to commit as many abortions as possible. What is difficult to understand here? The substance of the study is colored if the person doing the "study" has such a bias or a vested interest."

The goal of a doctor, or should I say MOST doctors, is not to practice as much medicine as humanly possible. That's fucking ridiculous. Most people become doctors because they want to help people.

Once you get a law degree, are you going to be serving as many clients as possible as quickly as you can? Or are you going to try to make a difference in the world?

9/11/2005 3:48:30 PM

I have a law degree. You mean once I pass the Bar. And to be perfectly honest, billable hours are a large part of a firm lawyer's life. The number of billable hours you rack up not only affects your salary but also affects how quickly you make partner, or even if you are retained at all. Many firms have no hesitancy at all to fire associates who are not meeting billable hour expectations.

That said, there are many lawyers who do pro bono work. It is strongly encouraged, and even firms encourage it.

9/11/2005 3:51:15 PM

Quote :

"There was a large write up about the lee et. al. study. The editor for the journal is a strong catholic who is against abortion and she stands by the the study. So that negates much of wolfpack's argument about the vested interests."

Oh and the lee et al is just a review of a study. Besides, it was also peer reviewed. It just shows what all Wolfpack2k knows about science.

Quote :

"I have a law degree. You mean once I pass the Bar. And to be perfectly honest, billable hours are a large part of a firm lawyer's life. The number of billable hours you rack up not only affects your salary but also affects how quickly you make partner, or even if you are retained at all. Many firms have no hesitancy at all to fire associates who are not meeting billable hour expectation"

Doctor's offices do not function like that.

[Edited on September 11, 2005 at 3:53 PM. Reason : .]

9/11/2005 3:52:28 PM

Sorry for not keeping up with your progress on the way to becoming a shitty politician.

9/11/2005 3:53:02 PM

I do not engage in discussions with people who are name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.

(Doctors need to eat like everyone else.)

9/11/2005 3:54:02 PM

Doctors need to eat. Wow. That's shocking.

Do you understand the concept of a peer reviewed medical study?

9/11/2005 3:57:44 PM

My dad (a doctor) gets paid whether or not he sees a patient.

and Peer Reviewed.

Or is there some sort of massive conspiracy in the medical world?

9/11/2005 3:59:38 PM

Quote :

"I do not engage in discussions with people who are name calling. Sorry, I can't help you."

9/11/2005 4:01:22 PM

My dad (a doctor) gets paid whether or not he sees a patient.

and Peer Reviewed.

Or is there some sort of massive conspiracy in the medical world?

9/11/2005 4:05:01 PM

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

[Edited on September 11, 2005 at 4:07 PM. Reason : add]

9/11/2005 4:06:44 PM

Nice cop out.

9/11/2005 4:07:23 PM

My dad (a doctor) gets paid whether or not he sees a patient.

and Peer Reviewed.

Or is there some sort of massive conspiracy in the medical world?

9/11/2005 4:07:32 PM

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

9/11/2005 4:07:57 PM

My dad (a doctor) gets paid whether or not he sees a patient.

and Peer Reviewed.

Or is there some sort of massive conspiracy in the medical world?

9/11/2005 4:08:58 PM

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

9/11/2005 4:09:47 PM

My dad (a doctor) gets paid whether or not he sees a patient.

and Peer Reviewed.

Or is there some sort of massive conspiracy in the medical world?

9/11/2005 4:10:18 PM

^^ He said "peer reviewed", not "peeping lewd". I know it sounds almost the same in Georgia.

[Edited on September 11, 2005 at 4:11 PM. Reason : .]

9/11/2005 4:10:49 PM

I don't care. You cannot call someone names 1,000 times and then ask a serious question and expect them to respond to your serious question because there was no name calling in that one. I require respect and honesty in people I am debating with, and if I don't have both of those things then I also do not have time for the person.

9/11/2005 4:12:00 PM

My dad (a doctor) gets paid whether or not he sees a patient.

and Peer Reviewed.

Or is there some sort of massive conspiracy in the medical world?

[Edited on September 11, 2005 at 4:12 PM. Reason : let the record show, I have not called you a name. You cannot confront the facts.]

9/11/2005 4:12:20 PM

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

[Edited on September 11, 2005 at 4:13 PM. Reason : the record shows.]

9/11/2005 4:12:50 PM

My dad (a doctor) gets paid whether or not he sees a patient.

and Peer Reviewed.

Or is there some sort of massive conspiracy in the medical world?

9/11/2005 4:13:01 PM

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

9/11/2005 4:13:14 PM

My dad (a doctor) gets paid whether or not he sees a patient.

and Peer Reviewed.

Or is there some sort of massive conspiracy in the medical world?

[Edited on September 11, 2005 at 4:13 PM. Reason : How am I being dishonest?]

9/11/2005 4:13:30 PM

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

[Edited on September 11, 2005 at 4:14 PM. Reason : look at "the record" ]

9/11/2005 4:14:01 PM

My dad (a doctor) gets paid whether or not he sees a patient.

and Peer Reviewed.

Or is there some sort of massive conspiracy in the medical world?

9/11/2005 4:14:27 PM

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

9/11/2005 4:14:34 PM

My dad (a doctor) gets paid whether or not he sees a patient.

and Peer Reviewed.

Or is there some sort of massive conspiracy in the medical world?

9/11/2005 4:14:49 PM

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

9/11/2005 4:14:58 PM

My dad (a doctor) gets paid whether or not he sees a patient.

and Peer Reviewed.

Or is there some sort of massive conspiracy in the medical world?

9/11/2005 4:15:30 PM

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

Quote :

""I do not engage in discussions with people who are dishonest and name calling. Sorry, I can't help you.""

9/11/2005 4:15:36 PM

My dad (a doctor) gets paid whether or not he sees a patient.

and Peer Reviewed.

Or is there some sort of massive conspiracy in the medical world?

9/11/2005 4:17:37 PM

Quote :

"I do not engage in discussions with people who are name calling. Sorry, I can't help you."

9/11/2005 4:25:54 PM

Quote :

"I do not engage in discussions with people who are name calling. Sorry, I can't help you."

9/11/2005 4:26:25 PM

Quote :

"Nope. Here's what you need to do - go to the Philosophy department, I think it's in Caldwell hall, and ask them if they have remedial logic courses you can sign up for. I'd recommend Professor Barbara Levenbook if she is still teaching. Or even ask for a tutor to help you - you might have to pay but judging from your posts here you would benefit greatly."

Another wonderful example of ad hominem.

Do you care to explain how your arguement is any different than I have described or would you just like to continue trying to insult me?

9/11/2005 4:55:08 PM

Quote :

"On the contrary. I said that the authors of this "study" have a vested interest in abortion, and so they lied and colored the facts in their "study". You compared the Pope's statement to this. In order for the comparison to fit, you imply that "the Pope has a vested interest in conversions.. and therefore he lied...""

[No] Please re-read. You didn't say the researchers lied, you just said they had a motivation to lie. Having a vested interest does not always mean you act immorally, it just means that you will benefit if you do.

As the head of the church, there is no question that the Pope has a vested interest in it. I was pointing out that just because someone has a vested interest in something doesn't mean they've acted immorally. I'm sure there are plenty of people that work for planned parenthood that support the cause regardless of financial gain. Just as there are many in the church who do so for reasons other than money and power.

9/11/2005 5:07:16 PM

From near the bottom of the wikipedia article, cracked me up.

Quote :

"You say airplanes are able to fly because of the laws of physics, but this is false because twenty years ago you said airplanes fly because of magic."

9/11/2005 5:42:35 PM