I thought this was about determinism...

Fuck this.

10/5/2005 6:17:01 PM

I don't really care about the circumstances, I was just stating my opinion.

10/5/2005 6:20:19 PM

i was going to read this, but then i realized im a guy and i have about as much credibility on this issue as i would if i gave a speech to the UN on Zimbabwe.

10/5/2005 6:21:17 PM

i know. aint it crazy to think that you would have credibility on an issue of "reproductive rights" and "choice?"

10/5/2005 6:24:25 PM

so if i agreed with all that its ok to consider myself pro-choice, right?

10/5/2005 6:29:50 PM

Quote :

"Heartbeat starts around week 7 or 8 I believe. I wouldn't have a problem with banning abortions after it starts beating."

Aparently it starts beating during the 5th week

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/PR/00112.html

But, a lot of women don't find out that they are pregnant until this point or even for another week or two (keeping out the strange people that don't find out for months) so that would be able to eliminate most all abortions if you couldn't abort after the heart started beating.

10/5/2005 7:00:33 PM

morning after pills seem to be popular.

10/5/2005 7:08:33 PM

what about a "day before" pill that reminds you that BEING PREGNANT IS ALMOST PERFECTLY CORRELLATED WITH HAVING SEX.

10/5/2005 7:28:11 PM

I'm a libertarian, so I can say that I am pro-choice with consistency.

10/5/2005 7:30:30 PM

^^ Stop lusting after women first.

10/5/2005 7:38:43 PM

Hey Keynes, thank you so much for telling me what I actually think in regards to abortion.

It was so insightful.



[Edited on October 5, 2005 at 7:56 PM. Reason : ]

10/5/2005 7:56:11 PM

^^ so apparently women have no responsibility in preventing a pregnancy, then? and yet, we give them the sole choice after the pregnancy has occurred? don't make no sense to me...

10/5/2005 8:14:06 PM

Welcome to the spin zone.

10/5/2005 8:19:03 PM

Quote :

"so apparently women have no responsibility in preventing a pregnancy, then? and yet, we give them the sole choice after the pregnancy has occurred? don't make no sense to me..."

Uhm, yes they do in the most direct sense. While some fuck like yourself would just SAY that he takes responsibility, the woman would actually have to bear the consequence of either raising the kid or going through an admittedly unpleasant (to say the least) procedure of abortion.

Now, if you meant responsibility as in answering to YOU or any person other than the said woman, then I'm happy to inform you that since it's not your body nobody has to fucking explain themselves to you.

10/5/2005 8:55:28 PM

so... lemme get this straight, I have to take responsibility as a father, but since its not my body then its not my place to take responsibility... got it!

you'll often note that when I talk about abortion and thereby pregnancy, I don't talk about just one person as far as responsibility is concerned. I don't talk about just the man, and I don't talk about just the woman. I talk about BOTH people as a unified entity. The reason being that pregnancy from the standpoint of abortion is something that takes two people (excluding the extreme case of rape). Thus to conclude that i'm a sick fuck and just "talk about" responsibility is pretty fucking stupid. Furthermore, to accuse me of being "all talk" still doesn't address the actual point: responsibility is shared. And, I see abortion, in general, as being a case of irresponsibility and not accepting or even acknowledging the logical consequences of a course of action.

but yeah, just sit back and try and explain away the "responsibility" of a pregnancy belonging to only one person in a two-person (ignoring the baby, of course) scenario. it really sounds smart. If anything, to say

Quote :

"While some fuck like yourself would just SAY that he takes responsibility"

implies that there actually is responsibility on the part of the male, and for a woman to engage in an action with such serious ramifications with a person displaying such a level of irresponsibility is equally irresponsible.

Quote :

"Now, if you meant responsibility as in answering to YOU or any person other than the said woman, then I'm happy to inform you that since it's not your body nobody has to fucking explain themselves to you."

so again, the woman is the only responsible person in a two-person process?

10/5/2005 9:07:47 PM

ANYWAY, regarding the original poster's article, if he cares what I think...

I rather liked the original article, despite some of the problems (as pointed out by aaronburro regarding assumption of sentience). It's an interesting perspective and brings up points regarding the natural progression of logic regarding the pro-choice philosophy that I've never personally thought about.

For reference, I'm pro-life, even in the case of rape. I haven't made up my mind regarding the health of the mother yet. I'm athiest; my values have no bearing on any 'god' or higher power.





[Edited on October 5, 2005 at 10:15 PM. Reason : why can't i get user tag to work damn alkeehol]

10/5/2005 10:13:09 PM

its an interesting perspective, but it was poorly executed...

10/5/2005 10:15:39 PM

^^

Quote :

"Keep using extreme examples of abortions of which the majority of pro-choice people are against anyways. "

Quote :

"For reference, I'm pro-life, even in the case of rape."

Thats one instance were I will always be pro-choice, because thats just fucked up.

[Edited on October 5, 2005 at 11:26 PM. Reason : ed]

10/5/2005 11:24:57 PM

Quote :

"For reference, I'm pro-life, even in the case of rape."

I'm pro-death, of you, in this specific case.

10/5/2005 11:40:35 PM

i only support murder in the case of fetuses

the weak minded have no place in a modern world

10/6/2005 12:21:33 AM

its easy to call people weak because they disagree with you, and hard to prove them weak for the same

10/6/2005 12:51:27 AM

hahah I'm glad InsaneMan is posting in here again

10/6/2005 10:12:27 AM

Quote :

"BEING PREGNANT IS ALMOST PERFECTLY CORRELLATED WITH HAVING SEX."

But you are talking about the reverse. Having sex isn't perfectly correlated with pregnancy.

I don't see why people want to call these little lumps of flesh a person. Do you call an egg a chicken?

10/6/2005 12:26:17 PM

^ If it's a fertilized egg, yes.

Some people just don't get it...

[Edited on October 6, 2005 at 12:41 PM. Reason : cluck cluck]

10/6/2005 12:41:33 PM

I didnt read every post in detail, but as far as I can tell, a couple points that havent been brought up.

I am pro choice, and here are the reasons that havent been addressed in the above....

1. Okay, fine, outlaw abortion. What do you tell the 12-14 year old rape victim who gets knocked up? no, she has to have the child? Not just rape, but rape of someone that young and it DOES happen.

2. What do you tell the mother whose health is endangered by the kid? no, she doesnt have the right to live?

In both cases, even if a pro-lifer was to say "but those are exceptions" - how do you rule exceptions? It's not like there's a lot of time to play with and fight over the matter (there isnt, especially considering most pro-choicers are also perfectly fine with the no 3rd trimester restriction). You're going to send either of the above through court or tons of red tape?

I say hell no.

3. If you legalize it, you can regulate it. By keeping alcohol and tobbacco legal, the contents of it can be regulated. I'm ususally very much anti-government involvement, but in these cases, it's obviously beneficial as opposed to the alternative. Prostitution is legal in one state, nevada i think? I could be wrong on which one, and they in turn have an entire system of things that go with it - including mandatory STD testing and everything. And guess what? They dont have many of the problems commonly associated with prostitution. I'm not saying it's moral, but i dont want the goverment dictating my morals anyways, thank you very much. If you outlaw it, it goes underground. Abortions *will* not stop because theyre outlawed- history proves this for me. Sure there are less, but it also means that everything occurs in less than ideal situations and is overall a worse situation!

You have the right to believe your moral ways, why cant i have the right to believe mine? My opinion says - if you dont want to get an abortion or want to encourage your friends not to, then by all means, dont. I give you the *choice*. which is why it's pro choice, not pro abortion not pro murder or anything else.

4. I will be fucking damned if you can tell me that the child welfare system in this country works like it should. Hell no it doesnt. Look at the foster system, look at the unwanted kids, looka t the kids on welfare and look at the kids who wind up on the streets. You're telling me you want MORE kids whose mom and possibly mom or dad doesnt want them? You cant support the ones yo'uve got!!! For the wellbeing of the *kid* why would you sentence them to a life like that? Kids get yanked from good homes by social services and left in bad ones (depending on area) all the time.

*disclaimer - there are wonderful foster parents, and wonderful people inside the system. I have babysat and met several. The sytem itself however, is broken. and there are people who arent so wonderful *

Now, as for the one very good objection I saw on the first page, rights of the dad to have a say so, I can certainly see trying to rework the system to ensure that dads have a say so, if not officially then perhaps unofficially by allowing for some sort of councelling for the couple to allow them to work it out agreeably.



[Edited on October 6, 2005 at 1:23 PM. Reason : .]

10/6/2005 1:22:11 PM

a dad gave up all his rights when he gave up his sperm. As soon as it fertilizes the egg the man's 23 chromosomes become part of the woman's body.

Quote :

"If it's a fertilized egg, yes."

that's stupid. it's an egg untill it hatches. just like it's a fetus untill it is born.

10/6/2005 3:15:41 PM

Quote :

"a dad gave up all his rights when he gave up his sperm"

absurd

in other words, a man NEVER has a choice as to whether or not he becomes a father. that is discrimination if i've ever heard of it.

if they agree to have a child but she changes her mind, poof, no more baby. but if they agree to have a child and he changes his mind, 18 yrs of child support anyway, too bad.

10/6/2005 3:46:46 PM

Quote :

" As soon as it fertilizes the egg the man's 23 chromosomes become part of the woman's body."

yeah, but when I bust a nut all over a bitch's face, why does she get all pissed at me, then? I mean, its now part of her body, aint it?

Quote :

"in other words, a man NEVER has a choice as to whether or not he becomes a father. that is discrimination if i've ever heard of it."

nah, it aint discrimination. thats just the kind of "logic" that these pro-murder-pro-irresponsibility people have to resort to. I mean, its silly that for one person the right ends at one place, and at another it ends elsewhere...

Quote :

"What do you tell the 12-14 year old rape victim who gets knocked up?"

I say YAAAAAAY for the extreme case. now we have to outlaw cars because people sometimes crash and die, right? besides, don't rape victims get the morning after pill, anyway?

Quote :

"What do you tell the mother whose health is endangered by the kid?"

I say YAAAAAAAAAAY for the extreme case. now we have to outlaw cars because people sometimes crash and die, right?

How about you pro-murder and pro-irresponsibility people actually argue why a woman should be allowed to murder a child based solely on the fact that she (and her partner, too, really) was too fucking stupid to actually think about, you know, getting pregnant.

Quote :

"But you are talking about the reverse. Having sex isn't perfectly correlated with pregnancy."

Yes, but abortions only happen to pregnant women. crazy thing, aint it?

10/6/2005 4:07:42 PM

aaronburro, do you like having sex?

10/6/2005 4:13:21 PM

oh, i love it. and so do my women

10/6/2005 4:14:10 PM

Cool, me too.

10/6/2005 4:17:00 PM

i don't recall having ever s3x0r3d you, armabond...

10/6/2005 4:19:06 PM

Quote :

"that's stupid. it's an egg untill it hatches. just like it's a fetus untill it is born."

Glad to hear that you're the expert on what is and is not stupid.

And by the way, I'd personally call it a "chick inside a protective shell" rather than just "chicken," but a chick is a chicken so it works either way. It's more than just an egg though. The egg is the female sex cell. Once it's fertilized it's not just an egg.

Saying "it's an egg untill it hatches" is not analogous to "it's a fetus untill it is born." It's analagous to "it's an ova until it is born."

10/6/2005 4:26:06 PM

LIFE IS CONTINUOUS, NOT TRUE OR FALSE

Eggs and sperm are alive, obviously. They're made of living cells.

Not everything thats alive is bad to kill. Most food is made of meat and/or plants, which were alive.

Everything has the POTENTIAL to become a Human life, including dirt. Dirt can become plants, which can be eaten by Humans and become Human babies. POTENTIAL is not enough. Anyone who has bought a lottery ticket knows that.

10/6/2005 6:47:55 PM

the horror

10/6/2005 8:24:16 PM

Quote :

"in other words, a man NEVER has a choice as to whether or not he becomes a father. that is discrimination if i've ever heard of it."

Well you can sue mother nature for not giving you a vagina. Is it discrimination that a woman can never get an erection? If you want to be a father, have sex with a woman who wants a child, it's not that tough.

Quote :

"And by the way, I'd personally call it a "chick inside a protective shell""

That's seems like a case of molding the language to suit your idealogy.

Quote :

"yeah, but when I bust a nut all over a bitch's face, why does she get all pissed at me, then? I mean, its now part of her body, aint it?"

The last time your penis was near a woman you were on the uterus slip-n-slide.

Quote :

"nah, it aint discrimination. thats just the kind of "logic" that these pro-murder-pro-irresponsibility people have to resort to."

It's not my fault god didn't make you a woman.

Quote :

"Yes, but abortions only happen to pregnant women. crazy thing, aint it?"

What the fuck are you taling about?

10/7/2005 12:19:56 AM

LadyWolff said

Quote :

"1. Okay, fine, outlaw abortion. What do you tell the 12-14 year old rape victim who gets knocked up? no, she has to have the child?"

To pro-lifers, abortion is a human rights issue; that baby conceived by rape has the same rights as any other baby.
If one of your friends had been conceived by rape, would you be willing to tell her that she deserved fewer rights than you?

Quote :

"2. What do you tell the mother whose health is endangered by the kid? no, she doesnt have the right to live?"

Pro-lifers don't want mothers to die, this is a case-by-case basis scenario, not one on which you could base the legality of abortion. Besides, doctors would be prepared to do emergency abortions; they're on call nowadays for the ER, where they handle operations that are more medically complicated (and time-sensitive) than an abortion.

Quote :

"3. If you legalize it, you can regulate it...If you outlaw it, it goes underground. Abortions *will* not stop because theyre outlawed- history proves this for me."

A quick mention should be made that Roe's lawyers in Roe v. Wade lied about the number of deaths caused by illegal abortions. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040528.html
Your argument #3 does not prove anything logically, but I agree that it would be bad for women to get illegal abortions.
If outlawed, the number of abortions would decrease because: it would be illegal, it would be more expensive, women would share your concern of safety of covert abortions, and the culture would shift somewhat, so that abortion would be viewed more as a human rights issue rather than a womens' rights issue.

Quote :

"4. Look at the foster system, look at the unwanted kids, looka t the kids on welfare and look at the kids who wind up on the streets...For the wellbeing of the *kid* why would you sentence them to a life like that?"

You make this world sound as if it's not worth living in. Would you rather not be alive at this present moment?
Wellbeing != death
Why would you sentence them to a death like that?

10/7/2005 2:15:15 AM

Quote :

"You make this world sound as if it's not worth living in. Would you rather not be alive at this present moment? "

Plenty of people commit suicide, clearly they didn't like being alive.

But, with abortion, you might end up aborting someone who is a leech on society, or someone who is like Hitler, or someone who might be like Albert Einstein. There's no way to know for sure, so it's pretty irrelevant to either side of the argument.

Plus, all reasonable "pro-choicers" and most pro-choicers in general don't argue that abortion is a joyous event, to be pushed on as many people as possible. They simply want women to have the choice. I personally hate abortion, and wouldn't recommend it to anyone (outside of rape), but I don't think it should be a crime to get one.

10/7/2005 2:51:49 AM

Quote :

"That's seems like a case of molding the language to suit your idealogy."

Did you read that part about "saying 'it's an egg untill it hatches' is not analogous to 'it's a fetus untill it is born.' It's analagous to 'it's an ova until it is born.'"? Cause, ya see, attacking my phrasology does not make an egg any less of a single sex cell.

If it helps, let me break it down for you; what I'm saying is that egg=single sex cell (by definition, unfertilized), 'fertilized egg' (for our purposes, since you brought it up, this is a chicken egg)=zygotic or fetal chicken, and fetus=zygotic or fetal (duh) human. Therefore, egg!=fetus.

10/7/2005 8:14:57 AM

jesus christ, this article is so stupid

this reminds me of a girl that couldn't understand the concept of a metaphor in AP english

even the analogies used are completely irrelevant

10/7/2005 8:17:08 AM

Quote :

""4. Look at the foster system, look at the unwanted kids, looka t the kids on welfare and look at the kids who wind up on the streets...For the wellbeing of the *kid* why would you sentence them to a life like that?""

Quote :

"Plenty of people commit suicide, clearly they didn't like being alive."

The difference is that the person who commits suicide is ending their life by their own choice. I usually have no problem with a person making the decision to end their own life; it's theirs to end. The difference here is that the fetus has that choice made for them.

This would be similar to a situation in which I find a person who is of certain socioeconomic status or has a history of family depression or illness and deciding that they don't have good prospects for happiness (or, hell, even just contentedness so I end their life (I'll be kind and not end it in the same way that the aborted fetus has their life ended).

The problem here is that pro-choicers, as a general rule, feel that the fetus is not human in the sense that it deserves access to the same 'human rights' that most people feel that born humans have. I, and most pro-lifers, disagree; we feel that the fetus should have access to these rights. So, we disagree on a fundamental level and this whole topic cannot be argued. [/thread]

10/7/2005 8:38:38 AM

Wow.

An article that generalizes all pro-choice advocates into being hypocrites and doesn't even deal with the actual issue of abortion.

You never published it?

what a shame.

Wow.

10/7/2005 9:09:32 AM

If the supreme court does overturn roe v. wade, I'm sure it will not, in the same stroke, make all abortions legal. More likely, it will uphold a womens right to privacy while upholding state's rights to regulate abortion.

As such, few states will make abortion illegal except in special circumstances, most states will make partial-birth and late term abortions illegal, and that will be that.

I realize it will be a hardship on those seeking an abortion that are unlucky enough to be born in a bible state. But even with the fruition of the worse-case scenario they are still attainable, just drive to another state. Get a friend to drive you. If you're rich, get a plane-ticket and hotel room.

10/7/2005 9:24:17 AM

or if you don't have the money, just go to the closet and get a coat hanger, and fish it out yourself.

10/7/2005 9:37:00 AM

Quote :

"'fertilized egg' (for our purposes, since you brought it up, this is a chicken egg)=zygotic or fetal chicken"

so when you have breakfast, you say that you're eating scrambled fetal chickens?

cause that would be pretty awesome. "please pass some more scrambled fetus. and while you're at it, I'll take some more of that pig ass too."

10/7/2005 11:14:17 AM

Quote :

"so when you have breakfast, you say that you're eating scrambled fetal chickens?"

If you aren't going to read what I said or fail to truly understand written american english, please get the fuck out.

The eggs we eat at breakfast are not fertilized and therefore cannot be fetal chickens.

I don't understand how some of you bozos get admitted to universities...

---> How retarded posters make me feel:

10/7/2005 11:58:59 AM

You're still trying to mold the language.

If it's in an eggshell, its a goddamned egg. If it's in a woman's uterus, it's a goddamn fetus.

10/7/2005 12:13:20 PM

^^ it was a joke dipshit. You may now unknot your panties.

btw, you can eat either fertilized or unfertilized eggs. There's no difference.

[Edited on October 7, 2005 at 12:28 PM. Reason : .]

10/7/2005 12:17:34 PM

^^ No, sir, you are moulding the language.

^ If it's a 'joke' it's an asinine one.

10/7/2005 3:07:09 PM

Am I calling an egg an fertilized Gallus domesticus zygote?

It's an egg.

10/7/2005 5:46:24 PM