Quote :

"As recently as yesterday, Hamas was projected to win only about a third of the 132 seats in the Palestinian parliament and now they take over half. Talk about a swing vote, eh? What's more alarming is that the Fatah party isn't even alleging voter fraud. At least not yet. Now we're faced with the unfortunate predicament of having a ruling secular political party replaced by a terrorist organization that's still committed to the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic theocracy in the region. Kinda makes me wish the administration had played a bigger role in promoting the peace process."

well first off, who said that Hamas are terrorists? just because they go to war with israel they are labeled terrorists. and just because they target civilians, just like israel, they are labeled terrorists. but i guess the only reason they are labeled terrorists and not israel is because one side has tanks and planes and the other has sticks and stones. oh and one side practicly owns the us, but i'll let you decide which side that is.


but not that i give a damn about hamas or palestine. i just don't think its right for the us of all places and especially israel to be calling anyone terrorists....fucking hypocrites.

1/27/2006 4:11:21 AM

Nope, I think it's pretty fair to label Hamas a bunch of dirtbag terrorists.

1/27/2006 8:28:16 AM

^^ you are a dumb fuck.

israelis at least go after legitimate targets, although they could be better about collateral damage. the hamas dick you're sucking only goes after civilians.

you're as big a piece of shit as they are.

[Edited on January 27, 2006 at 8:31 AM. Reason : *]

1/27/2006 8:31:25 AM

Some of the founders of the state of Israel were also terrorists.

Israel turned out okay though... well, sort of...

1/27/2006 9:09:45 AM

Quote :

"Gamecat: What's the difference between these Middle East democracies and the theocracies they replaced?"

I'll go out on a limb here, but my guess would be the whole concept of...well...voting

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: But what makes you think they won't be able to provide them at the same time they're still running what is essentially an armed resistance against Israel? "

The same "OMF guns or butter!!1" reason you and teh L3ft bitch about with W trying to run the War on Terror while domestic spending soars. If they try to do both they'll go broke, the Palestinian economy will be worse than it is now, and they'll get voted out.

Unless, as you deny, you really do think Palestinian voters are somehow different from everyone else...

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: Really, what makes Palestinian leaders any different than anyone else?"

Palestinian leaders are no different than anyone else, hence why their 1st priority is going to be placating the people that put them in office. Blowing up Israel isn't going to do it.

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: What's stopping Hamas, who gets to form the new government, from just recasting their private charities as government agencies?"

Nothing at all, I fully expected them to do so. But I'm assuming you missed the part where I said "And the social services their 'already up to their neck' providing don't encompass nearly everything Palestinian voters want and are going to demand of them."

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: Because I'm not seeing anywhere that I implied that they were any different than anyone else."

So you agree then that they'll all be clamoring for more social programs than they will blowing up Israel?

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: The picture? Or the fact that you don't think they're capable of multitasking while governing? In addition to their own arms, Hamas now controls the Palestinian security forces as well. What's preventing them from being able to use that arm of government while providing new social services?"

See above. According to you people on teh L3ft, we can't even do that. And we're rich.

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: And what the fuck have the Palestinians been doing in bad faith that the Israelis have not?"

haha I knew that anti-Israeli relativist mentality was gonna have to sprout up somewhere, gg

[Edited on January 27, 2006 at 10:20 AM. Reason : ---]

1/27/2006 10:19:19 AM

Quote :

"chembob: Mediterraneans are olive-skinned too, buddy."

It was sarcasm sparky. Or did you miss the post preceding it?

1/27/2006 10:21:30 AM

Quote :

"I say we pull out, and nuke the site from orbit. Its the only way to be sure. "

ahahahha, nice

1/27/2006 10:28:17 AM

1/27/2006 11:04:19 AM

when using U.S. as short for The United States of America, at least capitalize the 2 letters.

1/27/2006 11:47:22 AM

^^so we'll just blame carter for this one?

1/27/2006 12:10:15 PM

because democracy is only real when its pro-American

1/27/2006 12:40:31 PM

exactly

1/27/2006 12:42:59 PM

Quote :

"^^so we'll just blame carter for this one?"

yeah... that's fucked up

in fact, before i saw your comment i just assumed that was bush (that is, i didn't even bother looking at the nameplate)

totally lame

[Edited on January 27, 2006 at 1:17 PM. Reason : .]

1/27/2006 1:17:00 PM

its not terrorism when they are israeli civilians.

oh i forgot to add...

, you dumb pieces of shit.

[Edited on January 27, 2006 at 2:29 PM. Reason : fda]

1/27/2006 2:29:31 PM

It seems everyone missed the point of the cartoon. Check out this thread:

Pop Quiz: Democracy Leads to Peace?
http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=382932

I have very little respect left for democratic forms of government. Give me a constitution guaranteeing everyone a limited set of liberties and a supreme court manned by judicial activists. Beyond that, the King/Dictator/Parliament can do whatever it wants within it's limited sphere of control.

1/27/2006 2:55:46 PM

people are retarded and should not be allowed to govern themselves. this is true now b/c of this election.

whoever drew that cartoon is a fucking moron

[Edited on January 27, 2006 at 3:09 PM. Reason : .]

1/27/2006 3:06:15 PM

this is what happens when you don't use the CIA to rig foreign elections

[Edited on January 27, 2006 at 6:27 PM. Reason : or maybe they did rig it! </semi joking...>]

1/27/2006 6:26:53 PM

Quote :

"The same "OMF guns or butter!!1" reason you and teh L3ft bitch about with W trying to run the War on Terror while domestic spending soars. If they try to do both they'll go broke, the Palestinian economy will be worse than it is now, and they'll get voted out."

They've managed to do both for quite some time. I don't expect that to change now that they don't have the obstacle of internal authority trying to keep the peace.

Quote :

"So you agree then that they'll all be clamoring for more social programs than they will blowing up Israel?"

I'm fairly sure they're going to be asking for both. This isn't a one or the other proposition here.

Quote :

"haha I knew that anti-Israeli relativist mentality was gonna have to sprout up somewhere, gg"

That had to have been a hell of a lot easier than answering the question.

[Edited on January 27, 2006 at 7:47 PM. Reason : ...]

1/27/2006 7:45:58 PM

Quote :

"people are retarded and should not be allowed to govern themselves. this is true now b/c of this election."

I think you misunderstood. The cartoon is not anti-democracy, per-se. It merely points fun at those that would call any result "good" as long as it was derived through democratic means.

I would argue that a bad decision is a bad decision, regardless of how it was derrived, democratically or otherwise.

1/27/2006 10:34:50 PM

Quote :

"It merely points fun at those that would call any result "good" as long as it was derived through democratic means."

i.e. TGD

(who, btw, is thus far the only person I've encountered who's called this a good thing)

More news:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11067273/

[Edited on January 28, 2006 at 2:40 PM. Reason : ...]

1/28/2006 2:23:19 PM

never in my life did I imagine liberal Democrats would be so apoplectic over...well...liberal democracy

1/28/2006 7:23:31 PM

Quote :

"Gamecat: They've managed to do both for quite some time. I don't expect that to change now that they don't have the obstacle of internal authority trying to keep the peace."

So somehow they can do it despite being orders of magnitude poorer than we are, but we supposedly can't. I'm still trying to follow your logic chain on that one...

(to the extent such a chain actually exists of course )

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: That had to have been a hell of a lot easier than answering the question."

Oh it was, but there's no question the caliber of the answer was roughly equivalent to the caliber of the question.

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: i.e. TGD"

suggesting not you. so we should be working to stop democracy if it doesn't produce the results we want?

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: (who, btw, is thus far the only person I've encountered who's called this a good thing)"

Most pundits are myopic hyperbolic amnesiacs too...

1/28/2006 7:32:01 PM

Quote :

"TGD: So somehow they can do it despite being orders of magnitude poorer than we are, but we supposedly can't. I'm still trying to follow your logic chain on that one..."

Don't you mean your logic chain?

They were your words, not mine. You're the one that explicitly said that the royal "you" can't effectively run a government if "you" spend your time trying to blow shit up. Not me.



And apparently they seem to believe they can. Their military arm is becoming part of their security forces. We'll see how well(?) that works out for them. And while their social services don't satisfy everyone, they satisfy enough people (sort of like how our social services don't satisfy everyone, but satisfy enough people).

You never got around to answering though: "What's preventing them from being able to use that arm of government while providing new social services?"

I'm assuming your answer will be something like: "Us," or "Israel," or some combination thereof. Feel free to confirm my suspicions, though.

Quote :

"TGD: Oh it was, but there's no question the caliber of the answer was roughly equivalent to the caliber of the question."

That had to have been a hell of a lot easier than answering the question, too.

You do understand that there's more than one side to a peace negotiation, right?

Quote :

"TGD: suggesting not you. so we should be working to stop democracy if it doesn't produce the results we want?"

Was this from Karl Rove's Debating Handbook: Chapter 1: Totally Pulling Shit Out of Your Ass?

Because I was pretty sure that you, not me, were of the opinion that this result, as well as the result of any other free and democratic elections that empower tyrants, terrorists, and theocrats was "good" as long as it was derived through democratic means.

I tend not to think that any result is "good" as long as it's derived through Democratic means. But you knew that already. I don't think it's "good" that George W. Bush is president, though that result was arrived at through purely Democratic means.

I think the Palestinian people have made a mistake--a mistake that they were and should have been free to make of course, but a mistake nonetheless. I wouldn't go around defining a mistake as a "good result" for fear that someone may incorrectly assume I don't understand English (motherfucker, do you speak it?).

Where did I imply that I wanted us to work to end democracy for any reason?

Quote :

"TGD: Most pundits are myopic hyperbolic amnesiacs too..."

Pundits, heads of state, political analysts, and everyone except TGD. Right?

I mean, when (y)our own President called on the Palestinian people "to elect new leaders, leaders not compromised by terror," and then they turn around and elect new leaders who have claimed responsibility for terrorist attacks dating back two decades, and continue to indicate that they will attack Israeli civilians into the foreseeable future, how you can insist it's a good thing actually does blow my mind.

[Edited on January 29, 2006 at 3:05 AM. Reason : ...]

1/29/2006 2:54:12 AM

man i look at israel and i almost want to blame jews for the world being fucked up

1/29/2006 3:47:16 AM

Quote :

"Gamecat: They were your words, not mine. You're the one that explicitly said that the royal "you" can't effectively run a government if "you" spend your time trying to blow shit up. Not me. "

So we can keep cutting taxes and invading countries without affecting the economy then?

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: You never got around to answering though: "What's preventing them from being able to use that arm of government while providing new social services?""

Actually I did...

Quote :

"TGD: The same "OMF guns or butter!!1" reason you and teh L3ft bitch about with W trying to run the War on Terror while domestic spending soars. If they try to do both they'll go broke, the Palestinian economy will be worse than it is now, and they'll get voted out. "

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: You do understand that there's more than one side to a peace negotiation, right?"

oh absolutely, hence why Israel really had no choice but to kick things off unilaterally.

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: Pundits, heads of state, political analysts, and everyone except TGD. Right?"

I seriously doubt I'm alone in this view. Just b/c your fringe-l3ft news sources don't agree with me doesn't mean no one agrees with me

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: I mean, when (y)our own President called on the Palestinian people "to elect new leaders, leaders not compromised by terror," and then they turn around and elect new leaders who have claimed responsibility for terrorist attacks dating back two decades, and continue to indicate that they will attack Israeli civilians into the foreseeable future, how you can insist it's a good thing actually does blow my mind."

So b/c they didn't take W's advice, ipso facto, it's a bad result? You're trying to spin so fast I think you're starting to miss the asininity of your own bullshit...

Let's start with the obvious: the PM and his staff resigned. Resigned. In the Middle East. Tell me that doesn't help the concept of peaceful transfer of democratic government, and help fan democratic movements in neighboring countries.

Second, it puts neighboring countries on notice. Egypt, for example, is terrified of the Muslim Brotherhood. If Mubarak gets serious about trying to expand reforms in his country, his party is going to have to clean up and win the hearts of voters.

But most importantly, Hamas now is the Palestinian Authority. They didn't just win a big minority. That means no more hiding behind the PA, no more blaming the PA for mistakes and Palestinian misery, no more blaming Israel for Palestinian "oppression," no more excusing terror attacks by going "We're really trying. Really. We just can't control the militants"...which will now be tantamount to acts of war. That means Hamas has two -- and only two -- options:

1) domesticate and become an actual governing party. I doubt this would / will actually happen considering it's fundamentally a religious movement, but I could be wrong. If it did though, one of the biggest terror agents will have essentially morphed away from terrorism.

2) continue trying to blow shit up. Meaning they face constant international condemnation, lose pretty much all non-Iranian / Russian / Venezuelan funding, go bankrupt, and get voted out in the next election by a cleaned-up Fatah movement or some other party. And on top of it the great "vision" promised by terror groups in the region gets completely shredded in the eyes of the native populace.

Quote :

"TGD: How anyone could view this as a bad development is beyond me..."

[Edited on January 29, 2006 at 9:26 AM. Reason : ---]

1/29/2006 9:26:04 AM

Hahaha...we won't deal with Hamas, but we'll deal with Sunni insurgents.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11079548/site/newsweek/

I'll address your bullshit later.

1/29/2006 10:44:20 PM

Quote :

"TGD: So we can keep cutting taxes and invading countries without affecting the economy then?"

I'm not sure, to be honest. I certainly expect not, but then again, I'm not the one that commented so decisively on the matter.

What this has to do with anything at all escapes me...

Quote :

"TGD: Actually I did..."

I must've missed it because I couldn't believe you agreed with t3h l3ft.

Let me make sure I understand what you did there.

According to your assessment, the Palestinian Authority will go broke arming suicide bombers and militias if it increases domestic spending as well. This is like how t3h l3ft insists that America will go broke arming aircraft carriers, tanks, fighter jets, and bombers while opening military bases in foreign countries as well as repairing infrastructure destroyed by the WOT.

Apples, meet oranges.

From Saturday's Daily Standard:

"Some are speculating that participation in the democratic process and shouldering the responsibilities of governing will soften Hamas. Several senior members of the Israeli national security community I spoke with are doubtful. Even though most of their electoral support may have come from people angry at Fatah about poverty, unemployment, and lack of social services, the defeat and destruction of Israel are not mere policy preferences for Hamas but cornerstones of its Islamist faith."

Quote :

"TGD: I seriously doubt I'm alone in this view. Just b/c your fringe-l3ft news sources don't agree with me doesn't mean no one agrees with me "

Please, name your allies.

My fringe-l3ft mews sources include MSNBC, CNN, and such Fox News heavyweights as *gasp* Bill O'Reilly and Brit Hume, not to mention WaPo and the NY Times; and they are merely reporting what former & current ambassadors, current heads of state, and political analysts are saying is a "disaster."

I mean, might doesn't make right of course, but I really think you're stretching it here...

Quote :

"TGD: So b/c they didn't take W's advice, ipso facto, it's a bad result?"

And you accuse me of spinning...

Let's reword that for clarity: "So b/c they 'elected a terrorist organization to run their government,' ipso facto, it's a bad result?"

Yes, it is a bad result. And even if it weren't, you'd have one HELL of a hard time convincing me or most anybody with an ounce of sense that it was a GOOD result.

Quote :

"TGD: Let's start with the obvious: the PM and his staff resigned. Resigned. In the Middle East. Tell me that doesn't help the concept of peaceful transfer of democratic government, and help fan democratic movements in neighboring countries."

You're not arguing that it was a good result here. You're arguing that it could've been worse. Nobody disputes that a violent overthrow by Hamas would've been worse, but it doesn't make their election into parliament good.

Quote :

"TGD: Second, it puts neighboring countries on notice. Egypt, for example, is terrified of the Muslim Brotherhood. If Mubarak gets serious about trying to expand reforms in his country, his party is going to have to clean up and win the hearts of voters."

I honestly need you to expand on your point here.

Quote :

"TGD: But most importantly, Hamas now is the Palestinian Authority. They didn't just win a big minority. That means no more hiding behind the PA, no more blaming the PA for mistakes and Palestinian misery, no more blaming Israel for Palestinian "oppression," no more excusing terror attacks by going "We're really trying. Really. We just can't control the militants"...which will now be tantamount to acts of war."

So, you're arguing here that it's good because Hamas will provoke Israel into wiping Palestine off the map...? Excuse me for finding that a little sick.

Quote :

"TGD: [Palestine will likely continue trying to blow shit up] Meaning they face constant international condemnation, lose pretty much all non-Iranian / Russian / Venezuelan funding, go bankrupt, and get voted out in the next election by a cleaned-up Fatah movement or some other party. And on top of it the great "vision" promised by terror groups in the region gets completely shredded in the eyes of the native populace."

Ok. Next time I ask if you're saying that this is good news for the region because "[the Palestinians]'ll get to see up close how incompetently a terrorist organization runs a government?" Answer yes and save the bandwidth.

1/30/2006 11:55:30 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4664152.stm

Quote :

"The EU, US, Russia and the UN called on Monday for Hamas to renounce violence and recognise Israel or face the prospect of cuts in global aid. One Hamas leader, Ismail Haniya, said the "unfair conditions" would endanger the well-being of Palestinians. "

b/c both terms are so utterly unreasonable

1/31/2006 8:02:28 PM

Palastinian president Abbas called Condi Rice and begged her to have the US remove pressure for the elections, so they could delay it a while, because he feared that Hamas was going to win. Rice said 'no deal' and forced him to carry on with the free elections that our government so naively thought was going to be a show of support for pro-western policy.

BushCo are fucking idiots to think they can force democracy on third world middle eastern countries that have been ruled fior decades by corrupt, oppressive, and generally pro-western secular dictatorships --- and *not* have the election results come back overwhelmingly in favor of the fundamentalist islamic parties. groups like Hamas and the larger Muslim Brotherhood are totally supported at a grassroots level, by the masses of poor and uneducated and highly religious people in the region. precisely because they are religious and take care of their people.

does this administration not have a single person at a senior level who has studied the slightest bit of political science or middle eastern history? jesus christ already, i don't know shit, but this is freaking obvious.

2/2/2006 2:50:34 AM

It does good to expose the quacks to sunlight now and again. There is little Hamas can do at this point that the Palestinian Authority wasn't already doing <refusing to negotiate, crying fowl every three days, etc>. This is why Israel is unilaterally withdrawing. And since the "pease process" is going forward unilaterally, I suspect it doesn't matter what happens in Palestine short of raising an Army against Israel (which I think has already been done).

After four years of doing the same shit, the voters will see that Hamas is just as corrupt/incompetent/incapable and vote for someone else.

2/2/2006 9:46:03 AM

Hahahaha...four years...

[Edited on February 2, 2006 at 12:44 PM. Reason : all democracy = our democracy]

2/2/2006 12:43:45 PM