Quote :

"Yes the then GOP voted for it. The GOP that was actually socially liberal. You would not identify yourself with that GOP today. You'd call them pinkos"

This is not factually correct. Every major attempt to socialize various facets of our society (the Great Society, War on Poverty, Medicare, Social Security) were done at the hands of a Democrat President who had the luxury of having a Democrat Congress as well.

The GOP has always been known for being pro-business/capitalism and any attempt to socialize any segment of the private sector would have been vigorously opposed.

Or are you saying that the GOP today wouldn't stand for equal rights for all?

2/11/2006 10:27:13 AM

*psssst*

homosexuals

2/11/2006 1:49:27 PM

I'm a registered Republican and I fully support homosexual marriage. They are legally entitled to marry, as marriage is a legal contract, and of age, consenting adults have the right to unlimited contract. Donot fall into the belief that the theocratic social conservatives represent the whole of the Republican party, because they don't. The Republican party is a big tent party, and they simply happen to be in the majority at the moment (along with the corporate socialists). Unfortunately I donot see and end to this dominance in the '06 elections.

2/11/2006 3:30:24 PM

The GOP doesn't stand for equal rights.

2/11/2006 3:37:43 PM

Quote :

"What exactly do you mean by "black interests"? Black interest should be American interests, as we are all Americans. I don't even know why blacks vote for the Democrats. It's socialism that has destroyed the black community, socialism caused by Democrats. IMO, a black voting for a Democrat is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders."

Elaborate, please...

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 3:54 PM. Reason : Protostar]

2/11/2006 3:50:38 PM

from what I said on page 1

Quote :

"poverty rates among black children steadily rose for 25 years between 1968 and 1993. During this time period, median family income for blacks stayed the same in 1996 dollars, while whites saw their median family income increase by more than $7,000. It was only in the mid to late 90's that blacks saw any real improvement in income, with record numbers climbing out of poverty. Was that a result of the economic boom, or was it a result of welfare reform?"

2/11/2006 3:56:49 PM

^Nah, you're gonna actually have to say it. Tell me how you think welfare reform changed things. In your mind, what dynamic was at play there?

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 4:01 PM. Reason : sss]

2/11/2006 4:01:02 PM

Quote :

"It's socialism that has destroyed the black community, socialism caused by Democrats."

This was proven wrong near the end of the last page.

2/11/2006 4:08:07 PM

Its a pretty simple concept.

If there is a safety net which allows people to get by without working, a portion of the population will stay on that safety net until they are forced off of it. Before welfare reform, there were whole generations of families who got on welfare and never got off of it. The children's poverty rate is particularly telling. Even while poverty as a whole was falling among blacks, the poverty rate among black children continued to rise while the welfare system was in place.

Welfare reform forced a lot of these people to find jobs, with resultant gains in family income rates and decreases in child poverty numbers.

2/11/2006 4:10:56 PM

^I object to your notion that welfare made blacks lazy and content. I'm still stunned that people buy into the idea that poor people are happy being poor. In my mind, black poverty is the result of de facto segregation. Everything else follows.

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 4:44 PM. Reason : sss]

2/11/2006 4:26:29 PM

Quote :

"^^ Evidently you haven't taken many history classes because I have shown you the breakdown of the votes for civil rights. A larger percentage of Republicans voted for it. Without the GOP it would have never passed."

What are you on?

Throughout american history, some groups have gotten more rights, like women and blacks, for example. In these cases, republicans FINALY supported the cause becuase of the massive grassroots pressure. There is a widely held political strategy that states the best way to compete is to take a page out of your oppenents playbook when they are winning. Notice the strength/secuirity messages of kerry in 04. When liberals started winnings on the platform of progress early in the 20th century, you found republicans begining to fold. Women got the vote. Same happened for blacks with civil rights a while later. Same pattern of partisan support.

Just becuase you needed the GOP to pass some historic civil rights bills doesnt mean they werent the ones who stood in the way of it for decades and centuries.



[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 4:39 PM. Reason : -]

2/11/2006 4:30:56 PM

Yeah, I used to think nutsmackr was well-informed, but he missed a beat here:

Quote :

"you obviously never took a history class. Yes the then GOP voted for it. The GOP that was actually socially liberal. You would not identify yourself with that GOP today. You'd call them pinkos"

Republicans were not socially liberal when the Civil Rights Act was passed.

Furthermore, anybody who claims the Republicans were the champions of civil rights is on crack. The assertion that Republicans were in favor of civil rights is a slap in the face to those who spent their lives working against the GOP to inspire equality. Do not betray history with your politics, Wlfpk4Life.

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 4:40 PM. Reason : sss]

2/11/2006 4:35:42 PM

Its one thing to spin current events.

You cant (significantly) spin american history.

I dont know why Wlfpk4Life tries to.

2/11/2006 4:38:55 PM

Quote :

"it a result of welfare reform"

not trying to back this up with statistics or anything, just common sense.

2/11/2006 4:45:08 PM

Quote :

"I object to your notion that welfare made blacks lazy and content."

I didn't say that.

Quote :

" I'm still stunned that people buy into the idea that poor people are happy being poor"

I definitely never said that. As I'm sure you are aware, blacks on average have low education levels and high incarceration rates compared to the rest of the population. Its difficult to find a decent job with a criminal record and/or low education levels. It's not impossible, though. Welfare reform forced a lot of these people to go out and find jobs.

Quote :

" In my mind, black poverty is the result of de facto segregation."

sounds a lot like the wistful thinking of an ideologue. Any other explanation would shatter your illusory supposition of reality.

2/11/2006 4:48:07 PM

^That is some powerfully racist bullshit my friend.

Saying segregation isnt responsible for the current situation of 'blacks' is racist. Are you saying that blacks are biologically predisposed to end up with low education levels and cime?

No. These things are result of institutions of both past and present.

2/11/2006 4:56:13 PM

Quote :

"Saying segregation isnt responsible for the current situation of 'blacks' is racist. "

OMG the PC police! Get the fuck outta here with the racist stigma. Besides I'm not talking about the current situation of blacks. I'm using about statistics from more than a decade ago, before welfare reform was passed. Blacks are doing better than they were 10 years ago.

My point is that it doesn't take multiple generations to climb out of poverty. Immigrants do it all the time. All it takes is a decent education and/or some hard work.

Quote :

"Are you saying that blacks are biologically predisposed to end up with low education levels and cime? "

No. Nowhere in my post did I say or indicate that. I pointed out the reality of the situation, that blacks do have low education levels and high incarceration rates. Are you going to argue that point? Are you trying to say that pointing out reality is racist?

2/11/2006 5:06:16 PM

Quote :

"OMG the PC police! Get the fuck outta here with the racist stigma"

Josh8315 is not the PC police. I think it's clear he's the anti-BS police in this thread.

Quote :

"My point is that it doesn't take multiple generations to climb out of poverty. Immigrants do it all the time. All it takes is a decent education and/or some hard work."

Immigrants make up one of the most motivated populations in the world. To compare blacks to immigrants is a mistake.

Quote :

"Besides I'm not talking about the current situation of blacks. I'm using about statistics from more than a decade ago, before welfare reform was passed. Blacks are doing better than they were 10 years ago."

I might disagree. I think that steady rise in income that you keep referencing lies in the black middle class, not in the general black population.

Quote :

"I pointed out the reality of the situation, that blacks do have low education levels and high incarceration rates. Are you going to argue that point? Are you trying to say that pointing out reality is racist?"

And we're saying that those circumstances (low education levels and high incaraceration rates) are the direct result of segregation and decades of political neglect and apathy. How else would you explain it?

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 5:22 PM. Reason : sss]

2/11/2006 5:18:52 PM

Quote :

"My point is that it doesn't take multiple generations to climb out of poverty. Immigrants do it all the time. All it takes is a decent education and/or some hard work."

This statement also reveals your racist attitudes. If "all it takes is a decent education and/or some hard work", then how do you explain persistent black poverty?

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 5:27 PM. Reason : sss]

2/11/2006 5:26:33 PM

As I've stated numerous times in this thread, I blame persistent black poverty on the group's low education levels and high incarceration rates.

I don't know WHY blacks in general have lower education levels and higher incarceration rates, but I refuse to buy into the idea that it can be explained by segregation from 50 years ago or "decades of political neglect and apathy" as you put it. What does decades-old segregation have to do with the dismal high-school graduation rates of blacks today?

Quote :

"Immigrants make up one of the most motivated populations in the world. To compare blacks to immigrants is a mistake."

So now you are admitting that motivation plays a factor? Racial poverty discrepancies are not all just a result of "de facto segregation"?

2/11/2006 5:38:41 PM

Quote :

"My point is that it doesn't take multiple generations to climb out of poverty. Immigrants do it all the time. All it takes is a decent education and/or some hard work."

Immigrants that were slaves? Immigrants that were denied basic rights for centuries?

No. These are apples and oranges.

Its again, completely racist to say that 'black' people just need to work harder. They lack more education because its not seen as culturaly valuable. The reason for the cultural differences is the pas, namely the massive racism that existed among 'whites'.

Quote :

"I don't know WHY blacks in general have lower education levels and higher incarceration rates, but I refuse to buy into the idea"

Sounds to me like you dont want to believe that it could be current and historical institutions of racism becuase you believe 'blacks' to be inferior.

Youve been told why. The problem has been studied. If it is not the case that institutions are responsible for the differences, you must conclude that its race. Which is want you clearly want. But I and other informed people know that this couldnt be that case, becuase race doesnt even exist.

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 5:56 PM. Reason : -]

2/11/2006 5:49:33 PM

Quote :

"Immigrants that were slaves? Immigrants that were denied basic rights for centuries?"

How many blacks alive now were slaves?

Many of the immigrants in this country are descendents of slaves. Thousands of refugees from war-torn regions come to this country every year. Immigrants that were denied basic rights for their whole lives. Do some research.

2/11/2006 5:55:32 PM

Quote :

"How many blacks alive now were slaves? "

You lack an understanding of culture. Culture is passed from generation to generation. Ideas about raced are passed from geneation to generation.

Quote :

"Many of the immigrants in this country are descendents of slaves. Thousands of refugees from war-torn regions come to this country every year. Immigrants that were denied basic rights for their whole lives."

Name a specific group and show me how they have overcome what 'blacks' couldnt.

2/11/2006 6:01:24 PM

Quote :

"Sounds to me like you dont want to believe that it could be current and historical institutions of racism becuase you believe 'blacks' to be inferior. "

Sounds to me like you are putting words in my mouth.

Quote :

"Youve been told why. The problem has been studied. If it is not the case that institutions are responsible for the differences, you must conclude that its race. Which is want you clearly want."

I want people to get with reality. "Its been studied" is a really lame argument. "You've been told why" isn't even been an argument at all.

Quote :

"But I and other informed people know that this couldnt be that case, becuase race doesnt even exist. "

Of course race exists. Even if it cannot be pinned down on a genetic level, it exists in the collective minds of society. Don't be so naive.

2/11/2006 6:04:44 PM

^as a social classification, race exists.

So tell me again why you refuse to believe that the history of a people cannot shape the future of a people?

Why do you reject that explanation?

2/11/2006 6:07:29 PM

Quote :

"Name a specific group and show me how they have overcome what 'blacks' couldnt."

Southeast Asians who fled countries such as Cambodia and Vietnam to escape persecution and war. As a whole, these immigrants are doing much better than blacks, despite language and cultural barriers.

2/11/2006 6:07:48 PM

Quote :

" As I've stated numerous times in this thread, I blame persistent black poverty on the group's low education levels and high incarceration rates. I don't know WHY blacks in general have lower education levels and higher incarceration rates, but I refuse to buy into the idea that it can be explained by segregation from 50 years ago or "decades of political neglect and apathy" as you put it. What does decades-old segregation have to do with the dismal high-school graduation rates of blacks today? So now you are admitting that motivation plays a factor? Racial poverty discrepancies are not all just a result of "de facto segregation"? "

Segregation still exists. Look around. Your ignorance is embarassing.

And again, you cannot compare blacks to immigrants because, like I said, immigrants make up one the most motivated populations in the world. They are willing to leave their entire lives behind and move to another country with nothing.

Lack of motivation, high incarceration rates, low education levels...you seem to think of these things as inherent in the black race. You're wrong.

Quote :

"If it is not the case that institutions are responsible for the differences, you must conclude that its race. Which is want you clearly want. But I and other informed people know that this couldnt be that case, becuase race doesnt even exist."

And that pretty much says it all.

2/11/2006 6:08:49 PM

^^id need stats to back up that claim. people are going to be products of their pasts. migrants and not the same as blacks.

you cant say that because they too started out with very little, every other group of people must be able to start out with very little and do very well. instutions exist for different groups of people. racism towards asians is different then racism towards blacks.

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 6:13 PM. Reason : 0]

2/11/2006 6:11:02 PM

Quote :

"So tell me again why you refuse to believe that the history of a people cannot shape the future of a people? Why do you reject that explanation?"

That explanation is defeatist and contrary to the very concept of what America stands for.

This is the land of opportunity, remember? Not the land of vicious cycles of poverty and caste systems.

And I know that because of what I see immigrants do every day in this country.

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 6:14 PM. Reason : 2]

2/11/2006 6:12:32 PM

Quote :

"people are going to be products of their pasts."

That's just un-American, dude.

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 6:14 PM. Reason : 2]

2/11/2006 6:13:47 PM

Quote :

"Not the land of vicious cycles of poverty and caste systems. "

Its not like things arent getting better. Besides, poverty is a vicous cycle. I dont care what you want america to be. Harlem has been harlem for over 100 years. There are places in this country where the most sickening instances of racism and poverty has existed for each geneation, each new migrant group that occupies it. This is a fact of history. This disproves your claim. You can verify this by googling the history of east harlem. Youll find that no matter what migrant group came, it was always a shit hole of violence and racism. There are institutions that exist to keep some populations down. Namely the urban poor (a lot of which are black).

Quote :

" And because of what I see immigrants do every day in this country."

I see migrants that dont make it. Migrants arent blacks. They arent subject to the same type of racism.

Quote :

"people are going to be products of their pasts."

Quote :

" That's just un-American, dude."

I deal in reality, not what some people think it means to be american.




[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 6:21 PM. Reason : -]

2/11/2006 6:18:03 PM

Quote :

"I deal in reality, not what some people think it means to be american."

you obviously don't deal in reality if you want to explain low education levels on slavery and segregation. Our schools have been desegregated for decades now.

You're gonna have to do better than that if you want to have a real discussion about this.

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 6:23 PM. Reason : 2]

2/11/2006 6:22:40 PM

People and societies are outgrowths of their pasts. Im sorry youve never heard this theory. Everyone else who has studied culture, race and history knows this.

2/11/2006 6:24:21 PM

Quote :

"Everyone else who has studied culture, race and history knows this."

Again, this is not an argument. Saying, "smart people who have studied this know it to be true" does not make for a compelling case. Especially when dealing with a divisive, emotional issue such as race. Your politics and ideals shape your beliefs. You believe what you want to be true.

2/11/2006 6:27:11 PM

If you cant accept that the history of 'blacks' influences their current situation I cant make you accept it. All I can tell you is that you hold a different view then the experts.

I suggest reading some books by jon kozol or phil bourgois.





[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 6:36 PM. Reason : -]

2/11/2006 6:34:24 PM

Quote :

"Furthermore, anybody who claims the Republicans were the champions of civil rights is on crack. The assertion that Republicans were in favor of civil rights is a slap in the face to those who spent their lives working against the GOP to inspire equality. Do not betray history with your politics, Wlfpk4Life."

Did I say that the Republicans championed civil rights? What is clear and concise is that without Republican support civil rights would not have passed. Bottom line. The GOP didn't get any credit since the Congress and the President were all Democrat controlled, but that doesn't make the GOP's support of civil rights any less important.

As for those "who spent their lives working against the GOP to inspire equality," what are you talking about? If your answer includes abortion or homosexuals, your views on what equality means and what equality really is are two different things entirely.

2/11/2006 6:44:34 PM

Quote :

"It's also interesting to note that the only man left in the Senate that voted against Civil Rights is a Democrat - Senator Bryd of WV, former KKK member."

Dixiecrat much? You know Strom Thurmond was in essentially the same boat as Byrd for awhile.

also, before you insult wikipedia, you should realize that all the sources are posted in the article. thats what makes wiki good, if you see bs and have legit sources to back it up, then you can fix it.

funny how someone whose sources almost always come from unapologetically conservative-leaning sites is trying to insult other's sources.

also, the GOP was more socially liberal in the 50s. see: Ike and most of his policies. "liberal when it comes to people, conservative when it makes sense to be so", thats pretty much how i see politics usually, too.

Quote :

"As for those "who spent their lives working against the GOP to inspire equality," what are you talking about? If your answer includes abortion or homosexuals, your views on what equality means and what equality really is are two different things entirely."

ok, abortion doesnt belong there, but how is a homosexual's desire for equal recognition of their marriages not in line w/ ideas of "equality"?

ya gotta take the ever-shifting party alighnment in to consideration there, champ. now call me a name and go back to screeching about france or herb.



[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 7:27 PM. Reason : .]

2/11/2006 7:25:51 PM

Quote :

"What is clear and concise is that without Republican support civil rights would not have passed. Bottom line."

We've already addressed this.

2/12/2006 5:24:23 AM

I'm starting to see Civil Rights as more of a North/South issue and then a Democrat/Republican issue.

In that respect, I can see where Wolfpk4Life is coming from.

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 4:09 PM. Reason : sss]

2/12/2006 4:08:57 PM

Isn't the concentration of black people higher in the south?

2/12/2006 4:50:51 PM

^Not sure exactly. Why would it matter?

2/12/2006 4:53:35 PM

What is a specific way our current government is persecuting the black community? How are they
treated unfairly today, I want some specifics. If it's so obvious make a list.

2/12/2006 7:02:25 PM

^^ there are a lot of people who think southerners are further ahead in race issues than northerners

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 9:54 PM. Reason : .]

2/12/2006 9:30:50 PM

^^ No one claimed gov't was persecuting black people.

Society =/= government

2/13/2006 12:24:22 AM

Quote :

"there are a lot of people who think southerners are further ahead in race issues than northerners"

bigben, when I mentioned the North/South thing, I was referring to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Very few people would argue that, in 1964, Southerners were "further ahead in race issues than northerners."

As far as the present goes, I don't see how we can learn which group is "further ahead" than the other.

Quote :

"What is a specific way our current government is persecuting the black community? How are they treated unfairly today, I want some specifics. If it's so obvious make a list."

boonedocks' post above is the proper response to this question.

I will be back with specifics though. I'm drafting a response today. It's very important to me that I don't say anything incredibly stupid in this response because I don't want this topic dismissed as a result of my personal ignorance.

2/13/2006 9:42:11 AM

if black people don't want to be persecuted they should stop being loud in movie theaters.

2/13/2006 9:46:12 AM

Quote :

"I don't know WHY blacks in general have lower education levels and higher incarceration rates"

Prawn Star, have you ever made an attempt at learning the "WHY"?

2/13/2006 11:35:24 AM

I think the "why" is pretty evident when you look at their skin! Black = evil, white = good!

2/13/2006 11:39:08 AM

It's true. I mean, is there any question who the good guy is here?

2/13/2006 11:49:06 AM

Who has the present day statistics on racism in the north vs the south?

I think people in the north go out of the way to point out how tollerant they are, but a majority of those people double talk to their white friends and feel skurred round the black folk.

2/13/2006 6:14:09 PM