I thought meaty bones were good for dental care (except they wear down the teeth)

2/13/2006 1:10:59 PM

This is funny(or sad--I can't tell).

hillsboro
manufactuers
interrested
thoes --- you did this about 5 times.
somone
noone
figgure
respectivly
chiwawas
convience
immediatly
completly
interresting
nessicary
availible
naturaly
arnt

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 1:48 PM. Reason : .]

2/13/2006 1:47:48 PM

^HAHA, I almost feel like we're in chit chat.

2/13/2006 2:14:15 PM

^^ lolz

But yeah, like (nearly) everyone else has already said, this is a bad idea. Go take ANS 205, 230 and 415 and let me know if you would want to put that much effort into properly formulating a feed for dogs that covers 100% of their required nutrients.

2/13/2006 2:19:58 PM

I don't even know where to begin with all the bull that has been stated in this thread.

I commend your mom windhound96 for wanting to try this diet. It takes a lot of research but is worth it in the end. To answer your first question, try your local butcher or carniceria for meat. It will probably be the cheapest at these locations, and you can get livers and heart at harris teater and most all grocery stores. If you have a large dog, I recommend trying a carcass diet where you pretty much give the animal the whole chicken. This will allow them to get the balance of nutrients they need. Organs, bones, muscle, meat are all important elements in a raw diet. Dogs are omnivores so they do require a mix of vegetables in their diet (cats are carnivores and can go 100% meat).

To address a few issues that have been stated in this thread. Only cooked bone splinters, the raw bone is pliable to be eaten and if this is a concern you can start with "soft bones" like turkey and chicken necks. This diet is the most natural thing you can put your animal on, the most premium of all. The crap that is in dry foods and even wet foods is absolutely disgusting. Some organ meats are fine (liver, heart), but general by-products used by most pet-food companies are in such a quantity in the food that it is very unhealthy for the animal. Nutro at least does not use by-products in their foods and stays away from corn starches. Animals are very susceptible to corn, if they don't have an allergy now, they will likely have one in 10 years if continued on a diet with steady corn.

Vets don't recommend the diet because they don't know anything about it! Just think about it... All of these pet food companies wine and dine vets and give lovely presentations about how their food is the BEST thing on the market. Who is educating vets about raw diets? No one! There's no money there. Its not their fault they don't know. I know of one good vet in Raleigh that does promote the raw diet because she has taken the time to learn about it on her own (Dr. Bowman). My personal vet openly stated she didn't know much about it but as long as I did my research she wouldn't oppose it. They are all pretty good about it.

Its important to find a good recipe for your dog that has the proper mix of organs, muscle meat, bone (or calcium supplement), and vegetable (yes dogs unlike cats need veggies, just like humans as we are ominvores too).

Dogs have not evolved away from the requirement of raw meat. We have found a convenient way to make our lives easier by making our animals eat kibble. Because of this, bladder problems are heavily persistant as animals derive a great deal of liquid from meat. Cats in particular are heavily susceptible to urinary tract disorders because they naturally don't want to drink water, some adapt to it ok, others suffer the consequences.

There is no doubt you will pay more for a raw diet. In the long run you will be saved your moneys worth in vet bills. Animals fed on a proper raw diet (I'm saying proper because it will take a lot of research on your part) will lead healthier lives. Also dental work will not be an issue as the meat will work the animals gums. I actually left my first vet when they told me I should take my cat off of wet food and feed him only dry. That is an OLD paper. And there were no decent facts to back up this argument in the paper published. It seems like a nice solution dosen't it? Perfect for pet food companies to get a hold of. Well the amount of calories and carbs and junk in dry food is leading todays animals to obesity, and heavy health problems. Our pets seem to follow the American way too.

My vet called me once when a kitten was on its last leg. Her last chance was to put it on a raw diet. Why wait? This diet isn't for everyone because it takes time and commitment, and the hardest part is money. I heavily encourage the diet but I know it just won't work for many people. Thats fine. But don't diss the diet when you don't know anything about it. Vets use it as a last resort, ever wonder why?

Oh and I don't know if anyone in this thread brought up salmonella and other bacterias but dogs and cats can naturally fight these things. They do not require cooked meat like us. Why do you think a dog can bury a bone and come back a week later and eat it, even if its rotting? Their bodies adapt and can handle these types of bacteria. Its natural for cats and dogs to scavenge for meat. This meat can be very foul and they will be fine.

Also for any soon to be vets who might have something to say about this.... Please research this before you diss the diet...please... Do you see where the pet food companies are already getting to you? You all get free pet food, it starts so early and it will only continue even stronger once you become a vet, only instead of Iams and Eukanuba, it will be all of them! No one markets the raw diet, its up to you to learn about it yourself. Be open with your clients when they want to approach this task. Simulating a wild diet is the answer to so many ailments and is the best preventive measure that can be taken by the owner.

Also, don't feed pork. It is diseased meat and can only be fed cooked.

For anyone interested in a pre-prepared raw diet for cats and dogs, pm me. There is a company called NuDimensions based here in NC that makes these diets using human grade meats, 50/50 veggie/meat mixes for dogs and 100% meat/bone mixes for cats and dogs. I'll let you know where you can find this diet locally and any other information you want to know about it. If you are interested in raw diet mailing lists and user groups I can give you contact information.

2/13/2006 10:17:22 PM

Quote :

"Vets don't recommend the diet because they don't know anything about it! "

BUT YOU DO!!!!






fucking idiot

2/13/2006 10:23:11 PM

This thread needs to die.

2/13/2006 10:27:47 PM

^^^Dr. Bowman. At Gentle Care Animal Hospital? I'll ask her about that.

Quote :

"Oh and I don't know if anyone in this thread brought up salmonella and other bacterias but dogs and cats can naturally fight these things. They do not require cooked meat like us. Why do you think a dog can bury a bone and come back a week later and eat it, even if its rotting? Their bodies adapt and can handle these types of bacteria. Its natural for cats and dogs to scavenge for meat. This meat can be very foul and they will be fine. "

Quote :

"Also, don't feed pork. It is diseased meat and can only be fed cooked."

Why is this not a contradiction. Other meats are diseased as well, espically Chicken.
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Science/Baseline_Data/index.asp


[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 10:37 PM. Reason : .]

2/13/2006 10:28:32 PM

Quote :

"^^^Dr. Bowman. At Gentle Care Animal Hospital? I'll ask her about that."

Yes. She shops at the same place I do. She is not my vet (Dr. Moisan is) but I regard what she does highly.

Quote :

"BUT YOU DO!!!! "

Will you discount the many vets who do promote this diet?
A very well written article. Though focusing on cats, the facts can be applied to dogs.
http://www.catnutrition.org/vetletter.html

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 10:54 PM. Reason : .]

2/13/2006 10:49:13 PM

Quote :

"A very well written article. Though focusing on cats, the facts can be applied to dogs. http://www.catnutrition.org/vetletter.html "

Dogs and cats have very different digestive systems and nutritional needs. You can't just apply the same thing to dogs.

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 11:11 PM. Reason : ]

2/13/2006 10:57:10 PM

Quote :

"Also for any soon to be vets who might have something to say about this.... Please research this before you diss the diet...please... Do you see where the pet food companies are already getting to you? You all get free pet food, it starts so early and it will only continue even stronger once you become a vet, only instead of Iams and Eukanuba, it will be all of them! No one markets the raw diet, its up to you to learn about it yourself. Be open with your clients when they want to approach this task. Simulating a wild diet is the answer to so many ailments and is the best preventive measure that can be taken by the owner."

a computer science major is telling me how to study/do my job. that's rich

here's an idea.
you feed YOUR dog what you want. if/when it goes wrong there will be a vet there to fix it(hopefully it can be fixed)
save your advice for others, and let someone who actually has the slightest inkling what they're talking about(i.e. vets) give out the nutritional advice

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 11:11 PM. Reason : kfdjsal]

2/13/2006 11:08:30 PM

quacko wins!

2/13/2006 11:13:22 PM

Quote :

"a computer science major is telling me how to study/do my job. that's rich here's an idea. you feed YOUR dog what you want. if/when it goes wrong there will be a vet there to fix it(hopefully it can be fixed) save your advice for others, and let someone who actually has the slightest inkling what they're talking about(i.e. vets) give out the nutritional advice"

I've studied animals my whole life, just because I didn't choose them for my lifetime proffession dosen't mean I don't know anything about them. I don't hear you breaking down whats factually wrong with what I said. A decision to do a raw diet isn't a light decision to make but its not a complicated issue. I never took a human nutrition class but it dosen't mean I can't learn what is good for my body, do you see a nutritionist to tell you what to eat?

Try reading before you bash:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0646396242/
That book is primarily about dogs and is a great addition to my library. There are many others, I'm well read on this topic.

Also, my vet has no problem with me doing a raw diet. She trusts that I know what I'm doing.

[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 9:43 AM. Reason : .]

2/14/2006 9:41:53 AM

you need to re-read what i posted

Quote :

"Also, my vet has no problem with me doing a raw diet. She trusts that I know what I'm doing."

if you'll read closely i said damn near the same thing. "you feed YOUR dog what you want"

Quote :

"A decision to do a raw diet isn't a light decision to make but its not a complicated issue"

you're right. it isnt a light decision. and reading a book or two w/ a sketchy website or 3 thrown in does not give you the knowledge or credentials to offer advice on this to other pet owners, much less vet students/vets.

you're also right that its not a complicated issue when one is not burdened w/ the underlying knowledge and facts of the subject. to put it another way when you dont know of the science that contradicts the beliefs you have, it is easier to have that belief

and to use your human nutritionist analogy. would you take the advice of someone whose only credentials were having eaten for X years vs the advice of an MD w/ regards to the diet of your child?
would you then take the advice of the "eater" and try to persuade others to believe in that line of thinking, as well as counsel med students on what they should study, and recommend when they get into practice?

I'll say it one more time, in case you weren't paying attention:
feed YOUR dog whatever the hell you want.
But dont expect anyone else to lend credence to your beliefs, b/c you read a book and some websites.
And sure as hell dont expect me to change the way I study/practice medicine based on what YOU believe

and one more thing, dont make the mistake of calling yourself educated and assuming expertise on a subject based on the aforementioned experience of a book and some websites

that is all

2/14/2006 10:12:04 AM

You know this diet isn't for everyone you are right about that. I stated I dont' have a problem for people that choose kibble/wet diets. What I have a problem with is people dissing a diet and bashing a person genuinely interested, when they themselves know nothing about it.

This will probably take even more credibility away from me but I don't trust the medical industry. I'm sorry. I've seen them screw up with my family over and over and over again. My grandfather died at their hands, my mother almost died, and they have screwed up with me on countless occasions. My boss was told he would die after they misdiagnosed him. It was his WIFE that did the research herself and found out what he had and that it was curable with chemo. Just because someone dosen't work in a field dosen't mean they are incapable of doing their own research. I've decided the medical field has a wonderful purpose on this world and I won't take that away from them but they are not ALWAYS right. This in turn applies to the veterinary field. They know a lot more than me, but in the area of nutrition I've read everything I can get my hands on. If anyone is not willing to do that full-hearted then they should not do the raw diet. If they had a raw diet certification I would take it but they don't. So I can never have the credentials but I know what I'm talking about in this one area. I also know a lot about feline behavior but that is another issue.

Well I was upset last night when I read this thread. Nothing can make me upset right now. I'm happy as a clam (what a wierd expression). I just found out I was accepted into a masters program so am absolutely thrilled.

[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 10:39 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 10:41 AM. Reason : .]

2/14/2006 10:38:05 AM

cheap meat?
the siler city chicken plant gives away the condemmed chickens
(ones that fall off the line, get stuck in the machinery)

maybe your Mom should go pick up a USDA condemmed bucket there
doesn't get any cheaper than free

2/14/2006 4:20:45 PM

no one at our vet gets free food...

am I missing out?

2/14/2006 6:28:19 PM

What they are talking about is vet students getting free food when they are in school, which is really relevant because a few bags of free food is definitely enough to corrupt animal loving vets into pawns of the "dry food industry" who are really out to sicken and weaken your animal with substandard nutrition. I mean really, how could a researcher studying nutrition turn his back on the company that gave him three bags of food 15 years ago, I know I would bias my results and put my career in jeopardy for them!

2/14/2006 7:19:02 PM

Quote :

"I thought meaty bones were good for dental care (except they wear down the teeth)"

Eh, not really. The bones still leave sharp edges and can wreak havoc on the animals system. Best bet is a greenie, CT Chew, or similar. Even better is if you use a pet toothpaste and "brush" your dogs teeth regularly (they won't really have dog breath anymore too). My fiancee just recently got off her emergency medicine rotation at the vet school and one of her patients wracked up a sizeable bill because of complications from raw bones. Here is small snippet of info and some picks of potential problems.
http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/bones.html

2/15/2006 1:18:53 AM

Quote :

"Only cooked bone splinters, the raw bone is pliable to be eaten and if this is a concern you can start with "soft bones" like turkey and chicken necks."

Incorrect, see above.

Quote :

"This diet is the most natural thing you can put your animal on, the most premium of all."

Wow, I'm sold! Of course you actually have some clinical trials or soemthing to back this up, no?

Quote :

"The crap that is in dry foods and even wet foods is absolutely disgusting. Some organ meats are fine (liver, heart), but general by-products used by most pet-food companies are in such a quantity in the food that it is very unhealthy for the animal. Nutro at least does not use by-products in their foods and stays away from corn starches. Animals are very susceptible to corn, if they don't have an allergy now, they will likely have one in 10 years if continued on a diet with steady corn. "

First off, you can't just apply blanket statements to an entire industry. There are multitudes of high qulaity premium diet options out there. Even the cheaper foods have to abide by FDA regulations that are more strict than human food. Corn allergies are overexagerated. Heck, everyone has lactose allergies just varying degrees yet milk is pretty much a staple of human diets. Inhallant allergies are a bigger problem for most dogs anyways and diet is not going to affect that.

Quote :

"Vets don't recommend the diet because they don't know anything about it! Just think about it... All of these pet food companies wine and dine vets and give lovely presentations about how their food is the BEST thing on the market. Who is educating vets about raw diets? No one! There's no money there. Its not their fault they don't know. I know of one good vet in Raleigh that does promote the raw diet because she has taken the time to learn about it on her own (Dr. Bowman). My personal vet openly stated she didn't know much about it but as long as I did my research she wouldn't oppose it. They are all pretty good about it."

Vets could give a rats ass what food companies do. You are forgetting that the people who go to vet school are the ones who actually did dedicate 8-10 years of their life to extended education in caring for animals... they are cat and dog fanatics mroe than you could imagine. Plus, a good number of them are Animal nutrition majors or at least minors in undergrad (especially coming out of NCSU) so they have a very good fundamental grasp on nutrition (more so than a human doctor does on human diet). Then there is the fact that they have required readings in professional journals and first hand experience in dealing with cases covering nutrition. If you want to get super anal about your dogs diet then see a professional veterinary nutritionalist, just like a human would do.

Quote :

"There is no doubt you will pay more for a raw diet. In the long run you will be saved your moneys worth in vet bills. Animals fed on a proper raw diet (I'm saying proper because it will take a lot of research on your part) will lead healthier lives. "

Yeah, you will save money... unless your pet has his intestines cut by a bone, aspirates on the bone fragments or cartilage, gets impacted by bone , contracts a GI infection like E Coli or Salmonella, etc. All of these things happen more than you realize. Heck, in two weeks my fiancee saw two cases of it from the BARF diet. We are talking a couple thousand for the vet bill. You touched on one thing here that most people don't understand. That a proper raw food diet is not cheap and that it is not easy. Its not simply throwing a few chicken necks and backs in a bowl. Oh, and the reason peopl ehave obese pets is because they do not feed their animal properly, not the food source. Almost no one feeds according to the directions. Heck, how many people do you know that let their animals graze thinking "oh, they only eat as much as they need." We feed our pets as prescribed and miraculously they are spot on target animal weight.

Quote :

"Vets use it as a last resort, ever wonder why?"

Because there are better first options.

Quote :

"Oh and I don't know if anyone in this thread brought up salmonella and other bacterias but dogs and cats can naturally fight these things. They do not require cooked meat like us. Why do you think a dog can bury a bone and come back a week later and eat it, even if its rotting? Their bodies adapt and can handle these types of bacteria. Its natural for cats and dogs to scavenge for meat. This meat can be very foul and they will be fine."

Spoiled food or buried bones have little to do with E Coli or Salmonella. Yes, animals have stomachs that are adapted to different things but they aren't immune to bacterial infections. Heck, you could walk outside and eat a piece of dog shit yourself and odds are you won't get sick. Oh and if they don't contract the illness there is still a good chance they could pass something like Campylobacter or Salmonella on to you.

Quote :

"Also for any soon to be vets who might have something to say about this.... Please research this before you diss the diet...please... Do you see where the pet food companies are already getting to you? You all get free pet food, it starts so early and it will only continue even stronger once you become a vet, only instead of Iams and Eukanuba, it will be all of them! "

Pet food companies aren't trying to fool vets into avoiding a raw diet, they just want to beat out their direct competition into the office (like Pepsi vs. Coke). Vets aren't stupid, they aren't naive, and they aren't in it for money. They love animals. They do get to see research. They do get to treat animals. They do understand animal anatomy and physiology far better than we do. They do own multitudes of cats and dogs themselves.

Quote :

"No one markets the raw diet, its up to you to learn about it yourself. Be open with your clients when they want to approach this task. Simulating a wild diet is the answer to so many ailments and is the best preventive measure that can be taken by the owner."

Wow, that is some rich shit. Search for "raw diet" in google and nearly every single link is a site that is selling something related to hollistic food (a book, diet plan, analysis, food, etc). What you don't seem, to understand is that while you think pet food companies are pumping out propaganda and selling food for money that people out there peddling books and diet plans are doing it for money too. There is no more altruism in a holistic pet food vendor than there is in a government regulated prepared food supplier.

Quote :

"Also, don't feed pork. It is diseased meat and can only be fed cooked. "

If you are feeding raw beef or chicken then pork is not any less safe than the others. You are still gambling with getting your pet sick. Pork is not nearly as diseased as people think it is, its not 1925 anymore.

Quote :

"For anyone interested in a pre-prepared raw diet for cats and dogs, pm me. There is a company called NuDimensions based here in NC that makes these diets using human grade meats, 50/50 veggie/meat mixes for dogs and 100% meat/bone mixes for cats and dogs. I'll let you know where you can find this diet locally and any other information you want to know about it. If you are interested in raw diet mailing lists and user groups I can give you contact information."

NuDimensions is a pet food company that as been pandering to dog/cat people for years! They distribute propaganda about how great their food is and how unhealthy the alternative is because they just want to sell more of their product!

2/15/2006 1:20:03 AM

Quote :

"^^^Dr. Bowman. At Gentle Care Animal Hospital? I'll ask her about that." Yes. She shops at the same place I do. She is not my vet (Dr. Moisan is) but I regard what she does highly."

HAHA! Dr. Bowman is a fucking quack. Several people have left her practice simply because of the unsafe and unethical things she has done (not to mention some of her business practices). One instance she used accupuncture instead of the clinically proven method and it cause not only immense pain and suffering in the cat but death (all could have EASILY been avoided). There is a place for holistic medicine but it is NEVER the first option, especially in a life threatening situation.

Quote :

"Will you discount the many vets who do promote this diet? A very well written article. Though focusing on cats, the facts can be applied to dogs. http://www.catnutrition.org/vetletter.html"

I can turn on any late night TV show and find numerous pills and suppliments that could make my hair, muscle, or penis magically grow and they can all provide an M.D. that will associate their name to the product. Secondly, the article focuses on cats who are better suited for the raw diet but most people aren't doing raw diets for cats, they are doing it for dogs. Even then most people will not understand what it really takes for a proper diet in cats.

Quote :

"I've studied animals my whole life, just because I didn't choose them for my lifetime proffession dosen't mean I don't know anything about them. I don't hear you breaking down whats factually wrong with what I said. A decision to do a raw diet isn't a light decision to make but its not a complicated issue. I never took a human nutrition class but it dosen't mean I can't learn what is good for my body, do you see a nutritionist to tell you what to eat? Try reading before you bash: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0646396242/ That book is primarily about dogs and is a great addition to my library. There are many others, I'm well read on this topic. Also, my vet has no problem with me doing a raw diet. She trusts that I know what I'm doing."

You can reference books that people are selling for a profit or you can reference veterinary textbooks and reference books, veterinary nutrition journals, and clinical experience. Yes, the diet sounds logical but it simply isn't what it has been manifested into through countless blogs, internet forums, and uneducated personal accounts.

Quote :

"You know this diet isn't for everyone you are right about that. I stated I dont' have a problem for people that choose kibble/wet diets. What I have a problem with is people dissing a diet and bashing a person genuinely interested, when they themselves know nothing about it."

Which is essentially what you are doing to professionals in the food industry and veterinary science. Te difference is that one group doing the bashing is on the side of rabid pet owners/lovers who have hijacked the internet as their penultimate soap boax for proclaiming their knowlegde based on conjecture, while the other side is backing thoroughly educated individuals with clinical trials, practical experience, AND the same rabid enthusiasm for pets/animals.

Quote :

"This will probably take even more credibility away from me but I don't trust the medical industry. I'm sorry. I've seen them screw up with my family over and over and over again. My grandfather died at their hands, my mother almost died, and they have screwed up with me on countless occasions. My boss was told he would die after they misdiagnosed him. It was his WIFE that did the research herself and found out what he had and that it was curable with chemo. Just because someone dosen't work in a field dosen't mean they are incapable of doing their own research. I've decided the medical field has a wonderful purpose on this world and I won't take that away from them but they are not ALWAYS right. This in turn applies to the veterinary field. They know a lot more than me, but in the area of nutrition I've read everything I can get my hands on. If anyone is not willing to do that full-hearted then they should not do the raw diet. If they had a raw diet certification I would take it but they don't. So I can never have the credentials but I know what I'm talking about in this one area. I also know a lot about feline behavior but that is another issue."

No matter how much you think you've learned. It still amounts to jack shit. Web pages, books off amazon, and breeder testimonials are not the end all be all sources you think they are. Vets are not the same mold as human doctors. They are crazy for animals. Odds are they own at least 3 cats or dogs (all shleter rescuses). They put themselves a good $100,000-$200,000 in debt and put aside 8 to 10 years of their life in rigorous education to average about $40,000 a year in salary at a thankless job where people think they aren't "real doctors" and they are second guessed by every owner. To say that these people don't care to know the truth is asinine. They aren't just the animal lover that you claim to be, they actually made the sacrifice to prove it and have the credentials to show for it. Honestly, I don't think you'll ever "get it" until you sift through the countelss medical journals or you work the 12 hour shifts in the emergency room at the vet hospital.



[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 1:25 AM. Reason : blah, too much]

2/15/2006 1:23:25 AM

Quote :

"What they are talking about is vet students getting free food when they are in school, which is really relevant because a few bags of free food is definitely enough to corrupt animal loving vets into pawns of the "dry food industry" who are really out to sicken and weaken your animal with substandard nutrition. I mean really, how could a researcher studying nutrition turn his back on the company that gave him three bags of food 15 years ago, I know I would bias my results and put my career in jeopardy for them!"

Haha, gg.

Quote :

"no one at our vet gets free food... am I missing out?"

Oh come on, even if you didn't get free food I am sure you got a quality handkerchief for your dog to wear or perhaps a foam stress ball. These are the tools of hardcore industrial propaganda used pull the fleece over the eyes of vets everywhere! How can they possibly be expected to hold to everything they believed in a life of being an animal lover and learned in nearly a decade of professional education/training when they are being showered with these luxuries to prevent them from spreading the truth about BARF. I mean they do have the rough equivalent of a home mortgage to pay off so what better way to get started than with a couple $20 bags of food and some stress balls!

2/15/2006 1:26:09 AM

GG!!!! to you msb2ncsu!!!

2/15/2006 1:37:18 AM

thats a hardcore pwnt

2/15/2006 8:27:23 AM

Forgot these links last night:

Wide range of topics/myths covered in here and I highlighted a few of 'em:
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/barf-myth.html

Quote :

"It is interesting to note that feeding commercial pet foods to wild canids is the recommendation of the American Zoo and Aquarium, Nutritional Advisory Group. This same group also suggests raw meat in "carnivore logs" should only be used for the purposes of administering medication like wormers, enticing animals to move through cages or doorways, and getting the wild canid accustomed to eating commercial diets.35 While the Barfers are busy claiming domestic dogs should mirror the feeding habits of wild wolves, the very people who know the most about caring for wild canids recommend the feeding of a "commercial pet food" to wild canids. One of the reasons wild canids survive longer in captivity is that they are being fed a commercial diet instead of the BARF diet they would have eaten in the wild."

Quote :

"Between 8 and 11% of all dogs elicit adverse reactions to food at one point in their lives. A review of literature encompassing a large number of dogs and published studies covering the US, Australia, New Zealand and Europe was conducted. That study revealed the following proteins in descending order are the major culprits in dogs: Beef, Wheat, Dairy, Lamb, Chicken, Egg, and Soy. These seven items comprise 93% of all adverse reactions.29 Internet mythology, emboldened by unscrupulous manufacturers anxious to create a niche in the market frequently ascribe allergies to corn, yet corn is one of the least likely sources of intolerance. Only 4% of the 8-11% of all intolerant dogs has shown intolerance to corn and rice combined."

Quote :

"Evidence is also mounting of other issues relative to BARF feeding. Renal failure is the 3rd most common cause of disease death in dogs and the 2nd most common in cats. In a large study conducted by Dr. Joe Bartges, Dr. Jean Dodds and Dr. Susan Wynn, they looked at blood work from over 200 BARF dogs, and compared it to 75 dogs eating 'normal' diets and used by the lab for reference values. Mean BUN (blood urea nitrogen) was indeed significantly higher in dogs eating the BARF diet. Increased BUN is one of the most critical values examined when looking for renal failure. While it is incorrect to state that increased BUN might cause renal failure, it certainly is a significant warning of impending danger in older geriatric dogs with undetected renal failure."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FKA/is_6_67/ai_n13788104
All of it is good but this was my favorite line:

Quote :

"When I asked Geoff Stein, DVM, he wrote: "The problem with these 'natural' diets is the misguided assumption that 'natural' is better. It's 'natural' for wolves to die of salmonella once in awhile.""

Quote :

"Proponents also theorize that bacteria is destroyed by stomach acid. But Sharon Gwaltney-Brant, DVM, from the National Animal Poison Control Center, disagrees. "Pathogens such as salmonella, E. coli, clostridium and campylobacter have evolved 'coats' that protect them in their transit through the stomach, and this allows them to take hold in the intestines," she says. This could be the cause of the severe diarrhea some raw food people attribute to "detoxing.""

Site with a collection of links to books and articles showing the pitfalls of the Raw Diet (they are advocates of a home cooked diet):
http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html

Journal article of salmonella and E. Coli in raw meat, raw diet not good.
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan05/050115ww.asp

FDA on Campylobacter from Raw Diet
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fdcampy.html

Journal article on Salmonella contamination:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295

Quote :

"This preliminary study assessed the presence of Salmonella spp. in a bones and raw food (BARF) diet and in the stools of dogs consuming it. Salmonella was isolated from 80% of the BARF diet samples (P < 0.001) and from 30% of the stool samples from dogs fed the diet (P = 0.105). Dogs fed raw chicken may therefore be a source of environmental contamination."

80% of food samples being positive for salmonella! Would just love for my dog to give a child "kisses" after wolfing down on the pathogenic buffet that is the raw diet.

2/15/2006 11:01:12 AM

this is like a rub their face in it pwnt
gg

2/15/2006 11:09:54 AM

So you can quote breeders and I can't???? Its true there is a great deal of salmonella in raw meat. I certainly wouldn't let a dog lick mine or my childs face regardless of whether they are on a raw diet or not (it was never allowed in our household growing up). You must practice proper cleaning when working with this meat. Theres no doubt about it. The reason wild wolves die early is because of a variety of factors that our pets don't have to face, not just one. Most die of starvation combined with harsh weather conditions. All of which will weaken the immune system when fighting the bacteria that is commonplace in their diets. Our dogs should have healthy immune systems so this should not be an issue.

People have stated that dogs have evolved beyond this. But how long have they been in domestication, maybe a couple thousand years, maybe a little longer? How long have they been on commercially prepared diets - maybe a hundred years, maybe a little more? That is not long enough for dogs to evolve away from it. (This is to Lutra and others, not to msb2ncsu).

I'm going to see if I can find some more reasonable research. Unfortunately I know a lot more about cats than I do dogs and most of my links are thus related to cats. I can't help but think its the same for dogs but I'll have to see. At least we accede that this diet is good for cats.

And there are some good dry foods on the market. But I wouldn't put Science Diet, Iams, and Eukanuba on that list (they are medium in quality of the premiums...). What might be considered good is Innova Evo, California Natural, and a few others. The best for the price migth be Nutro but there are certainly better options.

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 12:00 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 12:10 PM. Reason : ..]

2/15/2006 11:43:55 AM

^ actually dogs have been domesticated for 12,000+ years

2/15/2006 12:01:37 PM

^ Fine. It does nothing to or for my argument. Whats more important is the time commercial diets have been around.

2/15/2006 12:11:17 PM

ok, this thread has degraded to the level of this:

2/15/2006 12:15:02 PM

Quote :

"But I wouldn't put Science Diet, Iams, and Eukanuba on that list (they are medium in quality of the premiums...)"

i attribute that mainly to your ignorance

2/15/2006 12:33:27 PM

^Just look at ingrediants and its pretty obvious.

Iams:
Chicken, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Fish Meal (source of fish oil), Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of vitamin E, and Citric Acid), Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Potassium Chloride, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Flax Meal, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Choline Chloride, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), DL-Methionine, L-Tryptophan, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Rosemary Extract

Innova EVO:
Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, Natural Flavors, Egg, Garlic, Apples, Carrots, Tomatoes, Cottage Cheese, Alfalfa Sprouts, Dried Chicory Root, Taurine, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract, Vitamins/Minerals, Viable Naturally Occurring Microorganisms

Its not rocket science. The word premium is applied very loosley to many of the commonplace pet foods in the store. Nutro finds itself sort of in the middle of these two.

2/15/2006 2:34:35 PM

oh i get it, one is better because it has less vitamins

2/15/2006 2:41:42 PM

Vitamins are used when there is a dificiency in the balance of foods used to make the product. Plus the vitamins used are synthetic vs. getting them in a natural form that they come in. If you eat a balanced diet then you don't need to take artificial vitamins. Nature provides its foods in a complete form for our survival. Synthetics have only been around in recent history. Not to mention all the preservative used. Also by-products are not good for the animal as they are the least nutritious of other parts of the animal. Hence why I like Nutro over many others because they do not use by-products in their lines. Also the use of corn is not done with higher premium foods. 8-10% of dogs with a corn allergy is a very high number. Why should pet food companies take the chance that 10% of their customers could be getting sick and sometimes not very noticably.

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 2:48 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 3:01 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2006 2:46:51 PM

First off, did you even bother reading any of the articles I posted?

Quote :

"So you can quote breeders and I can't???? "

The difference is that I referenced breeders that supplied info from veterinarians, board certified nutritionalists, and professional journals. I wasn't saying that breeders themselves are adequate sources. The only non-professional links I gave were ones that did nothing but cite professional references for every single point they made.

Quote :

"I certainly wouldn't let a dog lick mine or my childs face regardless of whether they are on a raw diet or not (it was never allowed in our household growing up). You must practice proper cleaning when working with this meat. Theres no doubt about it."

So you won't let your dog lick a face, great. What about when we finishes eating and wonders off to interact with multitudes of surfaces throughout your house. Heck, what about when he takes a drink, walks few steps and puts drops of salmonella can campylobacter all over the floor or even shakes it and propels it all over your kitchen. Of course this happens at every meal too. There is simply no way to prevent the spread of such infections simply through proper meat handling or not letting your dog lick a face.

Quote :

"The reason wild wolves die early is because of a variety of factors that our pets don't have to face, not just one. Most die of starvation combined with harsh weather conditions. All of which will weaken the immune system when fighting the bacteria that is commonplace in their diets. Our dogs should have healthy immune systems so this should not be an issue."

No one said that intestinal parasites, aspiration, and such are the leading cause of death among wovles, simply that it is there and it is significant. The scenario you specify is one plausible tale of events but so is the inverse, that a wolf contracts an intestinal parasite that wekeans them (from diarrhea/vomitting that dehydrates them and from simply their body fighting the infection) and causes them to not be able to hunt at a level sufficient enough for them to acquire needed nutrients. This is a similar reaction that most pets acquiring the infection go through. While pets "should" have a healthy immune system to fight of the infection, so should humans, but when the consequences of the alternative are as severe as death I see no reason to take chances, especially when there is no reliable evidence to belief there is a marked improvement in the diet to begin with. Here is a little bit on bacteria in the stomach of a domesticated animal:

Quote :

" Proponents also theorize that bacteria is destroyed by stomach acid. But Sharon Gwaltney-Brant, DVM, from the National Animal Poison Control Center, disagrees. "Pathogens such as salmonella, E. coli, clostridium and campylobacter have evolved 'coats' that protect them in their transit through the stomach, and this allows them to take hold in the intestines," she says. This could be the cause of the severe diarrhea some raw food people attribute to "detoxing." Cats are also susceptible to bacteria found in raw meats. A case study, published in 2003 in the Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association, involved cats that developed salmonellosis as a result of a raw diet. "The salmonellosis caused gastrointestinal upset, weight loss and anorexia, leading to both cats' deaths." Salmonella cultures from one cat were identical to cultures from the raw meat the cat was fed. "The resulting infection was confirmed as cause of death in both cases," the study said."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FKA/is_6_67/ai_n13788104

Quote :

"People have stated that dogs have evolved beyond this. But how long have they been in domestication, maybe a couple thousand years, maybe a little longer? How long have they been on commercially prepared diets - maybe a hundred years, maybe a little more? That is not long enough for dogs to evolve away from it. (This is to Lutra and others, not to msb2ncsu). "

Not to me but I can still point out your flawed thinking...
I'll point out wolf to dog comparison problems in a sec. Dogs have been on prepared food diets since early/mid 20th century. In that time frame, epsecially the last 20 years, the average lifespan of domestic pets has dramatically increased. Domesticated animals should not be living longer if the prepapred diet is not as healthy as the alternative.
Just how far apart dogs are from wolves:

Quote :

"Robert Wayne PhD, geneticist at the University of California at Los Angeles examined DNA in dogs and wolves. Wayne's recent genetic work suggests dog ancestors of some sort broke away from wolves about 100,000 years ago. Wayne's work included 147 dogs representing 67 breeds and 162 wild canids of all species from around the world. Wolf and human remains have been discovered in early fossils from over 400,000 years ago, but dog and human fossils date back only 14,000 years. Prior to this study, domestic dogs were thought to have originated only 14,000 years ago. In this new study, Wayne and his associates studied patterns in the mitochondrial DNA from dogs, wolves, coyotes and jackals. This type of maternally passed DNA changes at a specific rate. Wayne's study showed so many DNA changes that dogs must have diverged genetically from wolves about 100,000 years ago. ... The researchers found four distinct genetic groups in the dog world. This suggests that dog ancestors domesticated several times within the +100,000 year window, or at different places, and that no single wolf ancestor is common to all dogs.3, 5, 28. In a similar study conducted by Vila and Maldonado at the Department of Evolutionary Biology, Uppsala University in Sweden, maternal DNA showed a separation of 135,000 years between modern domestic dogs and wolves. 33 ... Further evidence of evolutionary changes in the dog compared to the wolf abounds in the literature. In a study of 2,959 dogs across 40 different breeds Genetic mtDNA variations in domestic dogs show a much higher level of heterozygosity when compared to wolves.33 Differences in musculature, tendon strength, gut wall arterials and many other distinct differences in the internal organs and abilities are described.11, 16"

Quote :

"I'm going to see if I can find some more reasonable research. Unfortunately I know a lot more about cats than I do dogs and most of my links are thus related to cats. I can't help but think its the same for dogs but I'll have to see. At least we accede that this diet is good for cats."

No, we don't agree. Its a possible diet for cats but not the best. There is absolutely no reason to feed raw food to a domesticated animal.

Quote :

""One of the most frustrating conditions in both dogs and cats fed raw foods, particularly the yeast, bone meal, muscle and gristle trim tissues and chicken parts such as necks or backs commonly used, is that of digestive disorders and the resulting deeper weaknesses, such as allergies, arthritis, I.B.S., liver, kidney or thyroid imbalance, poor immune responses and other organ issues, including diabetes and seizures."30 This comment from Dr. Lisa S. Newman, ND (Naturopathic Doctor), Ph.D., and Dr. Lee Veith, D.V.M. whom tried using BARF in the treatment of pets. "All the [BARF] diets tested had nutritional deficiencies or excesses that could cause serious health problems when used in a long-term feeding program. Of equal concern is the health risks associated with bacteria in the raw food diets, especially the homemade diet that yielded E. coli O157:H7. Although owners feeding raw food diets often claim that dogs are more resistant to pathogenic bacteria, we are not aware of evidence to support that claim."31 This from Drs. Freeman and Michel in the work they published in March 2001 in the AVMA Journal."

Yes, the diet is an option, its just not a good one. A cooked diet would always be a better option. Throw on the fact that there is no way your average cat owner is going to be able to determine adequate nutrition, nor take the expense/effort to ensure that the cat is getting it, and you are only asking for trouble. You only add risk with raw meats and bone, no benefits that you can't get with cooke or prepared meals.

Quote :

"And there are some good dry foods on the market. But I wouldn't put Science Diet, Iams, and Eukanuba on that list (they are medium in quality of the premiums...). What might be considered good is Innova Evo, California Natural, and a few others. The best for the price migth be Nutro but there are certainly better options."

Science Diet and Hills are acceptable foods. Eukanuba is higher quality than both. The nautral premiums are also great. Feeding Science Diet or Iams is not detrimental to your pet's health. Its the equivalent of your basic FDA Food Pyramid type meal plan but for animals. A human can spend more money for premium levels of meat, vegeatables and grain but its a matter of choice. There is no reason to expect a healthier life because you eat organic free-range chicken over the packaged Perdue chicken breasts on MVP Bonus Buy.

2/15/2006 3:25:24 PM

Quote :

"Vitamins are used when there is a dificiency in the balance of foods used to make the product. Plus the vitamins used are synthetic vs. getting them in a natural form that they come in. If you eat a balanced diet then you don't need to take artificial vitamins. Nature provides its foods in a complete form for our survival. Synthetics have only been around in recent history. Not to mention all the preservative used. Also by-products are not good for the animal as they are the least nutritious of other parts of the animal. Hence why I like Nutro over many others because they do not use by-products in their lines."

Synthetic vs. natural has absolutely no impact on absorption and use. As long as all enzymes and such are available for proper digestion of the vitamin or protein/amino acid then it makes no difference. Prepared diets are able to calculate how much loss of nutrient takes place in cooking or processing and adjust to get the required FDA amounts. This is something that you cannot do with a raw diet. The use of scraps is irrelevant because all that matters is protein composition levels, all of which is regulated and tracked.

Quote :

"Also the use of corn is not done with higher premium foods. 8-10% of dogs with a corn allergy is a very high number. Why should pet food companies take the chance that 10% of their customers could be getting sick and sometimes not very noticably."

First off, corn is not just a filler. Dogs do digest it and use it for nutrient. Secondly, I don't think you read that statistic that closely... 8% to 11% of dogs suffer adverse food allergies of some kind. Of those in this group, 93% of the reactions were to Beef, Chicken, Dairy, Wheat, Lamb, Egg, or Soy. Holy shit, you mean dogs can be adversely allergic to beef, chicken, and lamb!11 Imagine that. Only 4% of 8 to 11% suffer an allergy to BOTH corn and rice. The odds of your dog having adverse corn allergies are essentially no different than any other food allergy. Proteins are actualy the most dominant form of food allergy. I help pet sit for a JRT that is allergic to beef, chicken, and lamb. Its meals are strictly barley and cod with suppliments.


Look, its not that you can't do the raw/BARF diet or your pet is doomed. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that given the fact that the diet introduces numerous serious health risks to both pet and owner and that there is no clinical/emprical evidence to show a marked nutritional improvement with it, there is no reason to choose a raw diet over a quality regulated prepared diet. Simply none. Its all fanciful and wishful thinking.

This whole raw/BARF fad reminds me so much of the Atkins craze. Self-perpetuating second-hand "knowledge" that gets passed of as clinical fact and no attention paid to the reasons why not to choose it.

2/15/2006 3:55:11 PM

If you disagree on cats then perhaps you haven't read about Pottenger's cats. A very well known and respected study:
http://www.price-pottenger.org/Articles/PottsCats.html

I can't find anythign equivalent to it for dogs. I just don't think the research has been done, there were only a couple sources in the article you cited that might be of interest in relation to dogs and raw, and it might be interesting to read those directly. Most of the people who advocate raw food dont' even go with preprepared diets. I'm certainly not going to fund clinical trials and everything you are looking for, which is the problem - there is not enough interest. So the research just dosen't seem to be there for dogs. I may not agree but I will relent with what you have said. However, for cats this is another issue. Cats do better on a raw diet. I hope in the future better research will be done on this topic for both dogs and cats.

Its an interesting debate.

I'm not for the atkins diet. Its unbalanced.

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 4:00 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2006 3:59:06 PM

it's not a debate. you just got destroyed.

2/15/2006 4:00:46 PM

A least a couple of us are being mature, which I would expect from college students. But maybe my expectations are too high since its TWW.

2/15/2006 4:01:33 PM

Quote :

"I can't find anythign equivalent to it for dogs. I just don't think the research has been done, there were only a couple sources in the article you cited that might be of interest in relation to dogs and raw, and it might be interesting to read those directly. Most of the people who advocate raw food dont' even go with preprepared diets. I'm certainly not going to fund clinical trials and everything you are looking for, which is the problem - there is not enough interest. So the research just dosen't seem to be there for dogs. I may not agree but I will relent with what you have said. However, for cats this is another issue. Cats do better on a raw diet. I hope in the future better research will be done on this topic for both dogs and cats."

Research has been done. I even quoted a couple above: one noted renal failure tendancies in cats and dogs on raw diets, another talked about salmonella and toxoplasmosis infections (never actually quoted but was in the link). Do some PubMed searching for yourself if you want or spend time with a board certified veterinary nutritionalist.

Quote :

""One of the most frustrating conditions in both dogs and cats fed raw foods, particularly the yeast, bone meal, muscle and gristle trim tissues and chicken parts such as necks or backs commonly used, is that of digestive disorders and the resulting deeper weaknesses, such as allergies, arthritis, I.B.S., liver, kidney or thyroid imbalance, poor immune responses and other organ issues, including diabetes and seizures."30 This comment from Dr. Lisa S. Newman, ND (Naturopathic Doctor), Ph.D., and Dr. Lee Veith, D.V.M. whom tried using BARF in the treatment of pets."

Quote :

"David T. Roen, DVM, writes, "A veterinary neurologist told me the other day that they have seen au increase in seizure disorders in dogs and cats caused by toxoplasmosis, especially in areas where raw meat diets are trendy.""

Quote :

"Cats are also susceptible to bacteria found in raw meats. A case study, published in 2003 in the Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association, involved cats that developed salmonellosis as a result of a raw diet. "The salmonellosis caused gastrointestinal upset, weight loss and anorexia, leading to both cats' deaths." Salmonella cultures from one cat were identical to cultures from the raw meat the cat was fed. "The resulting infection was confirmed as cause of death in both cases," the study said."

Here is what Merck has to say about home diets according to research:

Quote :

"Feeding raw freshwater fish to cats can induce a thiamine deficiency. Feeding liver can induce a vitamin A toxicity in both dogs and cats. Malnutrition has been seen in dogs and cats fed “natural,” “organic,” or “vegetarian” diets concocted by their owners, and most published recipes have been only crudely balanced (by computer) using nutrient averages. The palatability, digestibility, and safety of these recipes have not been adequately or scientifically tested. It is difficult to characterize all homemade diets; however, in general, most formulations are excessive in protein and phosphorus, and deficient in calories, calcium, vitamins, and microminerals. Commonly used meat and carbohydrate ingredients contain more phosphorus than calcium, and these diets can have an inverse calcium:phosphorus ratio as high as 1:10. Homemade feline diets that are not actually deficient in fat or energy usually contain a vegetable oil that cats do not find palatable; therefore, less food is eaten and a caloric deficiency results anyway.""

Again, there is no reason to put either a cat or a dog at risk when the prepared meals are completely accounting for all nutrition needs of the animal (and its gauranteed, whereas you are simply assuming with raw home prepared). There is no statistically apparent increase in health benefit, but there is a definite statistically valid increase in health risk. Yes, the diet can provide proper nutrition but why take the chance on killing your cat when it is simply not necessary. You are clinging to highly debated points for the essence of your choice that are based on assumption and perceived logistics, not clinical analysis or established studies with scientific fact. If there were no chances of infection, no chances of aspiration, no chances of GI lacerations or impaction, no chance of deficiencies or excesses due to mistaken improper formulation, then I could see why you would give raw a chance over prepared but the only added possibility you bring to the table is sickness, vet bills, and death. It just does not make sense.

2/15/2006 5:02:33 PM

What is garlic such a common ingrediant in kibble for cats when it leads to anemia? Onions are toxic to cats and there close relative garlic is also toxic. That does not stop pet food companies from puting it in their food because for most species its healthy.

This article addresses bacteria:
http://www.healthy-paws.ca/pdfs/bacteria.pdf

Quote :

"Salmonella is very sensitive to and dies easily in the presence of acid. A dog's stomach is much more acidic than ours, so they have even more protection. Human beings need to consume a whopping dose of Salmonella in order to get sick, as most organisms are killed in the stomach. The number is somewhere in the order of 100,000,000 Salmonella bacteria. These amounts are not usually present in food that has been handled properly. Purchasing your raw meat from a reputable source should mean that it was kept at appropriate temperatures before delivery to you."

More on bacteria and kibble:
http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html

Quote :

""Meat products not intended for human consumption, such as inedible tissues, condemned portions of carcasses, and entire carcasses of condemned animals (eg, animals found to be dead, dying, disabled, or diseased at the time of slaughter), are also used for dog food. Because of the inherent nature of these products and the less stringent handling requirements, compared with products approved for human consumption, these products may contain high levels of bacterial contamination." (LeJuene, J.T. and D.D. Hancock. 2001. Public health concerns associated with feeding raw meat diets to dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, 219(9): 1222.)"

Here's a great rebuttal to one of your sources:
http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal.html
Though I'm not sure you will actually read it.

Well cited truths about kibble:
http://www.api4animals.org/facts?p=359&more=1

http://rawfed.com/myths/research.html
This makes a good point:

Quote :

""I've seen so many dogs come into my clinic with nutritional problems because of raw diets!" (What about all the sick commercially fed pets that come into your office?) "

And yes fish in large quantities is not good for cats.

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 5:53 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2006 5:53:12 PM

Oh and not to mention the obesity topic. Cats and dogs are becoming fat and flatulent, just like us eating all the junk food thats available nowadays. My girl Autumn came to our home and became indoors and hence she was getting very heavy for her frame! I switched her to raw and the pounds melted off of her. She was perfect in weight. Recently she found out where I stashed my kibble (yes I do keep some on hand) and decided to let her finish off what I had. Low and behold, weight gain! Its directly related. People with obese and thin cats can put their cats on a raw diet and you'll be surprised out how both will even out to proper weight proportions.

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 6:07 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 6:09 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2006 5:59:51 PM

I work in the Pharma industry and I can still take a step back and say, you know what they are doing isn't always right. Just because you are a vet student dosen't mean that everything you read is truth, particularly when a lot of it was funded by the pet food industry. Part of being a good vet is seeing things from all angles even if it challenges a popular belief. Otherwise society would never advance. And I'm not trying to say that you are swayed by the pet food industry because it sounds like you are doing a lot of research and such. Just try to keep an open mind when you go out in the feild and you start getting really good offers.

2/15/2006 6:06:41 PM

Quote :

"I switched her to raw and the pounds melted off of her. She was perfect in weight"

yeah that happens when you dont have a balanced diet. i could switch to an all mac and cheese diet and i would lose weight real fast, doesnt make it healthy though.

overwight pets is usually just the result of overfeeding and no exercise

2/15/2006 6:16:07 PM

Quote :

"yeah that happens when you dont have a balanced diet. i could switch to an all mac and cheese diet and i would lose weight real fast, doesnt make it healthy though. overwight pets is usually just the result of overfeeding and no exercise"

She maintained a healthy weight on raw and yes that was checked by the vet. On kibble she gains weight. Yes exercise plays a part but she is more energetic and active when she is eating raw.

2/15/2006 6:51:52 PM

hey dipshit if you don't know why a raw diet is different for cats and dogs then gtfo

but on the other hand i know you'll just rationalize your own ignorance to yourself and keep posting your retarded bullshit, so i'm not sure why i even try

2/15/2006 7:13:37 PM

Quote :

"Just because you are a vet student dosen't mean that everything you read is truth, particularly when a lot of it was funded by the pet food industry"

for someone who isnt a vet student you sure seem to know exactly what goes on. so tell me, exactly, what part of my studies were funded by pet food companies

Quote :

"Part of being a good vet is seeing things from all angles even if it challenges a popular belief"

for someone who isnt a vet, you sure seem to know what it takes to be a vet. this is nasty mixture of naivete and gross ignorance w/ a side of arrogance. but based on the rest of your posts, i should have expected it.

Quote :

"Just try to keep an open mind when you go out in the feild and you start getting really good offers."

once again, you are telling me/others what to do when I do MY job. that is horribly arrogant to assume that I or any other vet student would check in with you before making professional decisions

and just what should I keep my mind open to? marginally scientific studies and kooky websites which support your beliefs?
no thanks. I'll stick to science.

you come across as nearly criminally ignorant and disgustingly arrogant. you have no standing from which to give advice to vets/vet students. You found a kook theory that fits with your kook lifestyle and you latched on, and it propped up some of your kook beliefs. congratulations. why you feel the need to spread your unfounded beliefs is beyond me.

you have no credentials. you are not educated. and you flat out have no business even thinking that you can/should influence vets as to how they do their job. if you did, you would be a vet

2/15/2006 8:48:13 PM

Quote :

"What is garlic such a common ingrediant in kibble for cats when it leads to anemia? Onions are toxic to cats and there close relative garlic is also toxic. That does not stop pet food companies from puting it in their food because for most species its healthy."

Umm... there isn't garlic in kibble. Heck, I just checked our own cat's food then went to the nutritonal labels of Science Diet, Iams, and 9Lives and not one had garlic in them. Shit, Iams even had a little "Myth" section on their website and one they addressed was feeding a dog/cat garlic to avoid fleas to which they said not only does it do nothing but it is toxic. THe hollistic websites are the ones that tell you to use garlic, ginseng, etc. Another reason why they are full of shit.

Quote :

"This article addresses bacteria: http://www.healthy-paws.ca/pdfs/bacteria.pdf"

That article is great and all but I can find even more that contradict it. Your article relies on generalizations and even though the individual has credentials there is no documented case study. Heck, I posted the JAVMA case study that showed 80% of raw diet food samples tested positive for salmonella and 30% of the resultant stool samples tested positive for salmonella. Your article contains a lot of "should", "usually", "generally", and "most of the time" type language. As I have said before. If there is a statistically significant chance of bacterial harboring in the food source then why risk it when the alternative does not have that risk and is just as good. The are numerous documented cases of dogs and cats contracting salmonella (and other) infections as a direct result of a raw food diet.

Quote :

"More on bacteria and kibble: http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html"

This article simply comments on possible sources for meat. The difference is that kibble food is cooked and screened for harmful bacteria. The majority of chicken and beef used in raw diets will test positive for harmful bacteria, I see no reason to take the chance that a serving might have enough to culture.

Quote :

"Here's a great rebuttal to one of your sources: http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal.html Though I'm not sure you will actually read it."

I have read their rebuttal before. The problem is their rebuttal really doesn't say much. They use the same vague arguements to contradict the site's dialogue but says little to nothign about the legitimate research. I have little interest in the personal commentary of either site, I simply liked their collection of journal articles and professional references. The dialogue on the sites is no different than what you and I can rattle off. I see nothing but contradicting thoughts, nothing in the line of evidence to refute the opponent or support their own claim. They appeal to thoughts that seem plausible and logical but give no true backing for it.

Quote :

"Well cited truths about kibble: http://www.api4animals.org/facts?p=359&more=1"

You have to be kidding. The ony professional sources they cite are ones that simply state non-debated facts about diet (like what a cat/dog needs) but there is nothing other than Hollistic doctors, newsletters, and GoodDog! magazine references that offer the substance of their points. The bottom line is that you simply cannot find clinical data to support the claims of BARF/raw. They use deceptions to infer that commercial food is not as viable but totally ignore the boom line issue, like when talking about nutrient level. THey say that the processing and cooking of the commercial food causes a loss of nutrients and that suppliments have to be added to make up for it instead of it simply being there. The bottom line is that the nutrients are there! The food is not less healthy, it has everything it is supposed to have.

Quote :

"http://rawfed.com/myths/research.html This makes a good point: Quote : ""I've seen so many dogs come into my clinic with nutritional problems because of raw diets!" (What about all the sick commercially fed pets that come into your office?) ""

THis is a joke. THere is not evidence what so ever to even remotely suggest that commercial foods are inadequate and causing sickness in pets. None what so ever. Sure there are extremely rare cases of secondary contamination and what have you but the nutritional viability of the food is not debatable. The science backs it up 100% (a by product of being federally regulated).

Quote :

"And yes fish in large quantities is not good for cats."

OMG, no way!11 Cats love fish! They try to eat them all the time and its available in the wild! How on earth could it possibly be harmful to eat totally natural fish?!!

Quote :

"Oh and not to mention the obesity topic. Cats and dogs are becoming fat and flatulent, just like us eating all the junk food thats available nowadays. My girl Autumn came to our home and became indoors and hence she was getting very heavy for her frame! I switched her to raw and the pounds melted off of her. She was perfect in weight. Recently she found out where I stashed my kibble (yes I do keep some on hand) and decided to let her finish off what I had. Low and behold, weight gain! Its directly related. People with obese and thin cats can put their cats on a raw diet and you'll be surprised out how both will even out to proper weight proportions."

Holy shit. I can believe you think that is some how relevent in deciding which diet is better. Look, if you follow a vets recommended feeding guideline for your pet according to age, activity, etc. then your cat will NOT gain weight. I repeat, your cat will NOT gain cat if you properly feed your cat. There are people who can lose weight by eating nothing but cabbage soup. Is cabbage soup the optimum diet for humans? This is essentially the sort of claim you are trying to make.

Quote :

"I work in the Pharma industry and I can still take a step back and say, you know what they are doing isn't always right. Just because you are a vet student dosen't mean that everything you read is truth, particularly when a lot of it was funded by the pet food industry. Part of being a good vet is seeing things from all angles even if it challenges a popular belief. Otherwise society would never advance. And I'm not trying to say that you are swayed by the pet food industry because it sounds like you are doing a lot of research and such. Just try to keep an open mind when you go out in the feild and you start getting really good offers."

What do you think vets do? What kind of people do you think they are? Do you actually have any experience with pet food companies? Do you know anything about what they actually do with vets? You have acquired a shit-ton of second hand information that has been embelished (even flat out made up) through years of self-righteous owners and breeders pretending like they know more than people who make it their LIFE to learn, study, and advance principles of veterinary medicine. These aren't industry hacks, they are people who own 5 cats, 2 dogs, and a couple lizards. They spend a decade learning legitimate principles of health and medicine backed by years of peer-reviewed research and studies. It puts them in debt somewhere in the neighborhood of $100,000 and $200,000 for those 8 to 10 years only to make about $40,000 a year. They do this because they have a personal interest in the welfare of animals. They could honestly give a rats ass if Iams or Hills buys them pizza at a conference or gives them some squeeze toys. Hell, would you willingly approve or solicit the use improper medication simply because Glaxo gave you a nifty tote bag? Fuck, no. Neither would a vet, because not only does it go against everything they've dedicated their lives to but it would violate their professional code of ethics and cost them their license. To be honest, you haven't a fucking clue. Look, I know you typr full well. My sister helps run a Greyhound rescue group. She has her own 40 dog kennel and has 14 dogs that her and her husband have adopted personally. They honestly think they know better than vets, as does the rest of her associated in the group and on the web. There is no reason other than ego and naivety. Simply being around dogs a lot does not give you medical insight.

You say things like "they are happier", "they look better", "they act healthier" but subjective observations mean jack shit, to be honest. My dog acted really happy when she ate a fucking shirt and the times she's eaten my mail. She was wagging her tail and getting excited when I was trying to treat her for heartworms after being rescued. Attitude and general appearance tell you nothing and the scientific evidence is not on your side. I'm serious, stop reading RawDietIsGod.com, HollisticeMedicineForTheWin.com, and BonesMakeMyPoopGood.net and try spending some time at the vet school, with a certified nutritionalist, or at least on PubMed reading actual research.

2/15/2006 11:26:01 PM

Quote :

"Please research this before you diss the diet...please... "

Why don't you research and make a decision on your own?

2/16/2006 2:14:11 AM

Finacee sent me this link this morning and thought it was relevenat considering we are talking about safe/unsafe diets:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/02/14/dangerous.dogtreat/index.html

COnsidering just how dense the Greenies are I could see where the odd defect from production might be really slow to digest (maybe too much binding agent or whatever). Also have to wonder how many of the 13 deaths were cheap knockoffs of Greenies. Either way there are clearly some problems.

2/16/2006 9:57:45 AM