OK, question, would Wilt have anywhere near the points he did with a 3 second rule, it would devestate his game while marginally affecting Russel's. And no, im not taking Shaq's word, I've heard Costas, Walton (who is very spacy, but knows the histroy of the game), and Ralph Sampson as well. I mean we kind of have to go off opinions here since we weren't around, stats are going to favor Wilt except the HEAD TO HEAD STAT, but would you want Iverson over Kobe since he's scored more points the last few years.( I know they play different positions, just trying to make a modern day comparison)

2/14/2006 10:18:27 PM

Quote :

"The all "what could have been and would probably make these lists" team: 1) Earl "The Goat" Manigault 2) David Thompson 3) Len Bias 4) ??"

4)Washburn
5)Phil Ford* going on what i've heard, wasn't old enough to remember him.

2/14/2006 10:19:54 PM

well im partial to AI being a philly guy, but if we're talkin about all around talent, it has to be kobe. still, AI is my favorite player, u cant deny that man's heart.

o, and we really cant say wat wilt would have done with a 3 second rule, but we certainly can say wat russell did without it, A LOT less than wilt. so lets stop talking about wat if's and deal more with facts and stats, not other people's opinions.

aside from the discussion kinda, wilt actually led that league in assists one year just because he wanted to, thats impressive in itself.

[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 10:56 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 10:57 PM. Reason : .]

2/14/2006 10:54:41 PM

well im partial to AI Wilt being a philly guy??

Just kiddin, I guess we just disagree...

[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 11:03 PM. Reason : sp]

[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 11:03 PM. Reason : sp]

2/14/2006 11:03:03 PM

yea, agreed, it was a good civil debate, hard to come by on here. i gotta get back to studyin bullshit econ.

2/14/2006 11:04:46 PM

Quote :

"Lebron James - if he learned to play clutch Dwayne Wade - close but not quite Dirk - maybe some nights on one end of the floor Duncan - tough to control the game at C Shaq - now?? hahahhaha Amare Stoudamire - ton of potential, but who knows Steve Nash - maybe some nights on one end of the floor Elton Brand - hahahaa Iverson - hurt too much Garnett - has proven he cant carry a team or be clutch McGrady - cant carry a team, can be clutch in some cases "

wtf

Lebron is already better than Kobe

2/14/2006 11:13:43 PM

^

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH

2/15/2006 3:58:28 AM

give lebron 50 shots a game and lets see how he compares

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 7:28 AM. Reason : i'd take a lebron-led team over a kobe-led team anyday]

2/15/2006 7:23:46 AM

kobe should be top 10. not sure about top 5 YET, but he probably will be when it's all said and done with. I don't like the guy, but he can fucking ball.

2/15/2006 8:53:34 AM

are you guys fucking crazy? kobe should be nowhere near the top 10. what has he done? dropped 81pts when he was the only one shooting the ball that game? big fucking deal. he won 3 champs with SHAQ, keyword: with. Until he proves he can make his teammates better he sucks in my mind. He is a selfish little nut fucker.

2/15/2006 9:08:42 AM

It's really sad how short people's memories are on basketball history.... There are at least 20 players in Pro basketball history that were better than Kobe is now.

2/15/2006 9:24:51 AM

name them


and how many times has lebron come through in the clutch and shown a clear desire to have the ball at the end of the game?

2/15/2006 9:42:58 AM

No, it's really sad how everyones hatred for Kobe has made them absolutely blind to the fact that he's the best player in the league.


If you want to base it on accomplishments then maybe he isnt top ten of all time yet.


But based on talent/ability he is certainly one of the top ten of all-time.


Think about it... if he's the best player in the NBA right now... and the NBA has the highest talent level of all-time right now... how can he not be in the top 10?

2/15/2006 10:23:29 AM

^ agreed


IF YOU WANT ONE PLAYER TO SHOOT THE GAME WINNER AT THE END OF THE GAME RIGHT NOW IT IS WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT : KOBE BRYANT

2/15/2006 10:28:52 AM

Quote :

"and the NBA has the highest talent level of all-time right now... how can he not be in the top 10? "

DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THE NBA HAS THE HIGHEST TALENT LEVEL OF ALL TIME NOW? THE SCORING IS DOWN.....AND I UNDERSTAND THAT TEAMS IN OTHER COUNTIRES HAVE IMPROVED BUT COME ON...WE WENT FROM DOMINATING THE OLYMPICS TO BEING EMBARRASED!!! I WOULD SAY THE TALENT LEVEL IS AT AN ALL TIME LOW....TO MANY HIGHSCHOOLERS....AND EARLY EXITS.......

2/15/2006 10:30:44 AM

First, I don't have a hatred for K. Bryant. I may not like what he does off the court, but I do not hate the player.

Second, scoring defense plays a big part in my determination of a great player. How well does that player do against a great scoring defense. To be honest, there is not a scoring defense in the entire LEAGUE that is as good as some of the worst scoring defenses from 20-30 years ago. Defense is no longer a priority of the teams or players in the NBA. Kobe is playing against the weakest defenses in the history of the NBA. That in my estimation detracts from his stature as one of the "Greatest of all time". I think you have to look back at the older teams and there you will find the greatest players, because they actually played against defenses...not four guys and one shotblocker who guards the goal almost like a goalie. Every player on the floor was capable of defending, not just one or two.

So there is my reasoning. I do not think that there will be another member of the "Greatest of all Time" until there are some great defenses for them to go up against and prove their worth. And that will not be happening ANY TIME SOON....

2/15/2006 10:42:41 AM

^what the hell are you talking about exactly?

2/15/2006 10:47:07 AM

NBA is a no defense league. It's almost like 5 one-on-one games running concurrently.... I used to watch the NBA all the time, back when defense actually meant something....

2/15/2006 10:50:57 AM

so what about the 80's when the average final score was: 122-117??

2/15/2006 10:58:20 AM

Quote :

"It's really sad how short people's memories are on basketball history.... There are at least 20 players in Pro basketball history that were better than Kobe is now."

Quote :

"name them"

1) Wilt
2) Kareem
3) Jordan
4) Bird
5) Russell
6) Baylor
7) Oscar
8) Dr. J
9) Hakeem
10)Mikan
10)Magic
12)Jerry West
13)Malone
14)Bob Cousy
15)Charles Barkley
16)David Robinson
17)Shaq
18)Duncan
19)Arizin
20)Earl Monroe

Do I need to go on? Hell DT was a better NBA player than Kobe while he lasted.

2/15/2006 11:18:19 AM

Quote :

"To be honest, there is not a scoring defense in the entire LEAGUE that is as good as some of the worst scoring defenses from 20-30 years ago. Defense is no longer a priority of the teams or players in the NBA. Kobe is playing against the weakest defenses in the history of the NBA."

You just set the world record for the most consecutive incorrect statements ever. So the 2005 Detroit Pistons played worse defense than the 1990 Golden State Warriors? Riiight...


When Kobe was going off for 25-40 points in the NBA Finals despite Detroit double teaming him every play... that didnt demonstrate any skill did it?

Defense is at an all-time high in the NBA. That's why you see dominant defensive players like Tyson Chandler, Sam Dalembert, Ben Wallace, etc being valued so much. It even extends to wing players like Ron Artest.



And if you guys wanna get technical. There are some experts out there who believe Shaq is the greatest NBA player ever. I tend to agree based on their arguments. Wilt Chamberlain's numbers didnt come against other 7 footers.





[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 11:30 AM. Reason : a]

2/15/2006 11:26:38 AM

^ I will reply to this again, it is easier to set up a zone....back then you were not allowed, thus it was harder to have a defensive team, that is why the bulls triangle defense was so great in the 90s.....everyone sets up the zone now because it conserves energy....hell pee wee leagues use zone....that’s the first thing you learn, I do agree with most of your statements though, How would Wilt compare today? Not as well as then......But Kobe is not a top 10 player until he learns that he is not the only one on the team......

2/15/2006 11:38:09 AM

^ Kobe is the only one on the team.


Kobe is one of the most efficient scorers in basketball.


There is absolutely no reason for him to pass up a decent look because Sasha Vujakic is open in the corner.


The only person on that entire team that can even shoot straight is Brian Cook. And he's not making any all-star teams this century.

The object on offense is to score points. Why would you not want the premeire scorer in the NBA to take most of your shots? If Steve Nash could score 35 points a game he wouldnt need to average 11 assists. Same with Jason Kidd or John Stockton. Scorers score.


I assume you mean "triangle offense" because ive never even heard of a triangle defense.

I doubt anyone here can even explain what the triangle offense truly is anyway.

And its not like teams are setting up in 2-3 zone. There might be SOME zone applied by teams but there is a defensive 3 second rule in place to keep people from guarding the basket. If anything, zone jsut makes it a little more difficult for someone like Kobe or Dwayne Wade to drive to the basket. So if illegal defense were still in effect I think its safe to say Kobe would be averaging even more than 35 ppg.



[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 11:44 AM. Reason : a]

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 11:46 AM. Reason : a]

2/15/2006 11:41:49 AM

JUST BECAUSE GUYS ARE BIGGER AND STRONGER IN TODAY'S NBA DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THEY ARE BETTER BALL PLAYERS....KOBE IS SCORING POINTS IN A WATERED DOWN LEAGUE......HE IS NO WHERE NEAR THE TOP 10

NBA 20 YEARS AGO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NBA TODAY

2/15/2006 11:54:28 AM

the point is who gives a fuck how much he scores. that doesnt make you a top10 player. kobe is doing what jordan did in the late 80s... jacking up a shitload of shots and losing.

2/15/2006 11:57:00 AM

The Lakers arent losing because of Kobe dumbass.


He is singlehandedly keepign them alive. They'd be the worst team in basketball if you removed Kobe. Kobe is playing great and he has taken a HORRIBLE team and made them dangerous.


If you can't see this then you're blind. He is scoring at will. That is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.

Why would you blame a teams losses on the guy who is scoring at will? That makes no sense.







[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 12:08 PM. Reason : a]

2/15/2006 12:00:09 PM

it is ridiculous for any of you to think that KOBE BRYANT isnt the best player right now.

IF you watch him play, I honestly believe that he is and will be the closest thing to MICHAEL JEFFREY JORDAN that we will ever see.

the scoring, the three peat, phil jackson, the game winners, the slam dunk championship, the size, the shooting form, the all-defensive teams

From the last two eras in the NBA, the 2 players that you want the ball in their hands with the game on the line is 1) MJ and 2)Kobe

2/15/2006 12:01:45 PM

I consider the lakers anything but dangerous. he doesnt have a shitty team and he does score a shitload of points but those circumstances dont make him a top10 player.

2/15/2006 12:02:05 PM

Quote :

"jacking up a shitload of shots and losing."

they are .500

no other team in the the leauge is .500 or better w/out more than one player who scores > 14 a a game (the nuggets dont, but they have 3 guys w/ about 14.5 a game). the next best scorer on the lakers is Odom and he is averaging about 13.

2/15/2006 12:02:14 PM

please tell you dont think the lakers are a serious contender to beat anybody in the playoffs. They are behind the fucking clippers in their division.

2/15/2006 12:04:26 PM

and the clippers are good

what is your point?


my point is the lakers are in playoff contention w/ basically only kobe

2/15/2006 12:07:55 PM

The problem is you guys dont even watch the games, so you dont realize how dominant he is right now. Well in this case, the stats dont lie:

Average per game:

2 pointers: 10 made, 21 attempted

3 pointers: 2 made, 6 attempted

free throws: 9.2 made, 10.8 attempted.


So, (10*2)+(2*3)+(9.2) / (21+6+5.4) = 1.08 points per shot.

1.08/2 = 54%


He has an adjusted FG% of 54% and he's averaging 35 points a game. That is fucking amazing from the guard position. Get off his knutesac already. I don't like the guy either but I'm not dumb enough to deny his talent.


If you have a problem with a guy shooting who scores 1.08 points per shot then you're an idiot. You think Luke Walton can score with that type of efficiency?

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 12:10 PM. Reason : a]

2/15/2006 12:08:33 PM

some things to consider:

1) IF Shaq in his prime was playing on Jordan's bulls teams, would he have taken away some of those finals MVPs???

2) There is not another player in the league that you could take and substitute for Kobe on these Lakers and they still make the playoffs

3)Kobe is only 27 and has 3 rings, playing for a franchise that reloads championship teams every so often. Jordan was 27 with no rings. Kobe has the potential to win 3 more

2/15/2006 12:10:25 PM

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HE IS DOING NOW...HE IS A GREAT PLAYER IN A WATERED DOWN LEAGUE RIGHT NOW...NOT TOP 10 OF ALL TIME.....THE NBA PLAYERS CAN'T COMPETE INTERNATIONALLY EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE BIGGER, STRONGER AND FASTER THAN EVERY OTHER TEAM OVERSEAS......

NOT TOP 10 OF ALL TIME

2/15/2006 12:12:34 PM

@ rallydurham: this argument isnt about whether kobe is good. anybody to deny him of that should be hit in the balls. the argument is whether he is top10 of all time. An adjusted fucking field goal % of 54 and have a .500 win% isn't top10 material.

Also players in the league outside of the pistons and a few other players(artest) put no effort into playing defense. Thus, the validity of scoring points is watered down.

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 12:15 PM. Reason : ]

2/15/2006 12:12:48 PM

@rosschillen: Unless you watch Kobe, dont say shit about his effort on defense

did you watch the last time the lakers played the cavs???

Kobe D'ed up Lebron all the way til the last shot

why didnt lebron guard Kobe any during the game?????

Kobe plays as good at defense as anybody at his position


@the fuck head who said international team would beat any team from the NBA, YOU HAVE SERIOUS PROBLEMS: take the pistons overseas and they wouldnt lose

2/15/2006 12:21:23 PM

What the fuck are you talkign about?

Defense is emphasized 100% more than it was in Jordan's era.


You are aware Jordan wasnt the only person scoring 25+ ppg in the later 80's, right?

And give this Olympics thing a rest already. If the USA put their best lineup out there (Kobe, Garnett, etc) instead of shitty players like Richard Jefferson & Stephon Marbury they would have won the gold. It also woudl have helped to not have Larry Brown coach the team since he benched his three best players for the entire game (Lebron, Stoudamire, & Wade).


You guys are aware that Stoudamire would have averaged 70 ppg in the 1950's, right? You do realize Wilt Chamberlain probably wouldnt even be an All-Star if you put him in todays NBA, right?


Its so crazy. No one is dumb enough to argue Jesse Owens could compete with today's Olympians... but for some reason they think Bob Cousy could dominate the NBA still. When in fact, he'd be lucky to even make the league.

I'm done with this shit. You really can't argue with the fact that Kobe is the best player in the league, and that the NBA is at an all-time high in terms of talent... hell the league is so loaded right now that three of the best players in the game (Garnett, Kobe, & Lebron) didn't even make the playoffs last year.

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 12:23 PM. Reason : a]

2/15/2006 12:21:54 PM

Quote :

"You are aware Jordan wasnt the only person scoring 25+ ppg in the later 80's, right?"

why yes i am. i have been saying all along scoring points doesnt make you top10.


also talent != great player

peace

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 12:25 PM. Reason : ]

2/15/2006 12:25:42 PM

Quote :

"@the fuck head who said international team would beat any team from the NBA, YOU HAVE SERIOUS PROBLEMS: take the pistons overseas and they wouldnt lose"

THEY STRAIGHT UP LOST.....WTF...THE ORIGINAL DREAM TEAM DOMINATED....THE REST OF THE WORLD WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW UNFAIR IT WAS....

THAT RAG TAG TEAM THAT WE PUT OUT THERE STILL HAD 3 OF THE MOST "TALENTED" PLAYERS IN THE NBA...IF THEY WERE SO TALENTED HOW COME THEY LOST 4 GAMES

2/15/2006 12:29:51 PM

There was a triangle defense, that’s why Phil Jackson always wanted to have shaq on his team, because the bulls had a weak spot in the middle. Yes there was a triangle offense as well......the defense was to get around the no zone rule without actually breaking it.

2/15/2006 12:32:41 PM

^I've agreed with just about everything youve said in this thread, good job man

2/15/2006 12:33:40 PM

Quote :

"I assume you mean "triangle offense" because ive never even heard of a triangle defense. "

Triangle-and-2

2/15/2006 12:37:39 PM

wait i thought it was the triangle and 3?

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 12:38 PM. Reason : ]

2/15/2006 12:38:43 PM

How would that work?

Triangle = 3 guys

+ 3?

2/15/2006 12:40:34 PM

I think you are missing the sarcasm.

2/15/2006 12:43:07 PM

I long ago learned to ignore the possibility of sarcasm in Sports Talk

because a lot of people really are retarded.

2/15/2006 12:48:09 PM

OK OK OK OK I understand where most of you stand on Kobe right now


But do you think when his career is over that He could be in the top 10 of all time???

2/15/2006 12:56:21 PM

I have a question for the Kobe guys.....was Kobe the best guy on the team when Shaq was on it? Whose "team" was it?

^Perhaps, but some growing up has to happen (Jordan did the same shit when he was young)

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 1:00 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2006 12:59:49 PM

Shaq was the established player w/Kobe. Good christ, Shaq left when Kobe was 25. Do you really think the young guy is going to run the team over a dominant, veteran center? NO.

2/15/2006 1:04:05 PM

Quote :

"From the last two eras in the NBA, the 2 players that you want the ball in their hands with the game on the line is 1) MJ and 2)Kobe"

Haha actually Derek fuckin Fisher or Robert Horry hit the clutch shots. Don't give me no Kobe is the man clutch time bullshit.

I agree with ihatespida, if the NBA is so good now, how can our "Dream Team" lose 4 games with the ALMIGHTY Larry Brown coaching?

The original Dream Team with Bird, Jordan, Magic, and company DOMINATED the world.

2/15/2006 1:05:11 PM