Quote :

"smoothcrim: there are more pieces of software for *nix than there are for osx"

OS X is *nix...

2/28/2006 5:37:34 PM

^hahaha I didnt even catch that. Looks like smoothcrim just pwnted himself. Hahahaha

BSD doesnt have: (I am mixing PC, Mac, and hybrid apps here)

Any Adobe software, Any Corel software, Any Macromedia software (though this is supposed to change soon), FinalCut, Solidworks, Rhinoceros, Alias anything, Peachtree, Quickbooks, TurboTax, Cakewalk, Soundforge, Fruityloops, Any Autodesk software (autocad).

And don't even say "omg just use wine" because the same argument can be said for Apple PC's using VPC or just running natively in windows.

Basically BSD/*NIX still doesnt have support for the overwhelming majority of PRODUCTIVITY application on the market. Might be great for finding a million ways to organize your files or surf the net, but seriously dude, it's fucking retarded to suggest it as a replacement for any average consumer.

[Edited on February 28, 2006 at 5:44 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2006 5:43:41 PM

osx does not support x86 *nix apps, atleast until recently. sorry I didn't make such a clear distinction. I'm fully aware osx is bsd based.

2/28/2006 5:50:20 PM

Quote :

"while maintaining 893475893475983457% of apple functionality"

True if the person isn't a creative professional or doesn't insist on having certain branded peices of software. There's more consumer level creative+productivity software availible for the mac though, as another poster said.

[Edited on February 28, 2006 at 5:55 PM. Reason : ]

2/28/2006 5:53:38 PM

or a financial professional

2/28/2006 5:54:31 PM

Or irish. The irish don't like your evil *nix distros.

2/28/2006 5:55:51 PM

ha, this fag is a joke. UNIX doesn't have a decent anything for it. IDE, office suite, graphics program, video player, email (and even if they did exist, I'm supposed to find them myself??). After a fresh installation, linux couldnt recognize the video card in my fucking dell computer, so that shit was in software rendering. I especially like it when copy and paste doesn't work across different applications, and I really like it when each application has their own shortcuts for them.

Get a clue, dork. Maybe when your time becomes valuable, you won't like wasting it.

[Edited on February 28, 2006 at 7:51 PM. Reason : sfds]

2/28/2006 7:50:34 PM

Quote :

"once bsd is installed and configured properly, it can be I'd say ~85% as user friendly as apple, while maintaining 893475893475983457% of apple functionality"

So who's going to do that configuring? And if someone is thinking of moving from windows to mac and user friendliness (new word!) is an issue, do you really think that 85% as user friendly as an Apple is a good thing?

Isn't that somewhat akin to telling an ex pinto owner that the car you're recomending for them only bursts into flames 15% more often than the car they're looking at, when properly serviced and maintained on a weekly basis?

[Edited on February 28, 2006 at 8:20 PM. Reason : tag]

2/28/2006 8:19:49 PM

Quote :

"UNIX doesn't have a decent anything for it. IDE, office suite, graphics program, video player, email (and even if they did exist, I'm supposed to find them myself??)"

Eclipse (or ya know.. your terminal)
OpenOffice
GIMP
mplayer
thunderbird, evolution, and 8734895 terminal apps

almost all of these are part of install images for major *nix distros and they're easily obtained if not

[Edited on February 28, 2006 at 8:29 PM. Reason : d]

2/28/2006 8:25:07 PM

^ open office is pretty good, at least for people writing scientific papers. the equation editor is MUCH nicer than the POS in word.

2/28/2006 8:28:04 PM

haha, you fucking idiot. All those programs are second rate pieces of shit compared to mac and windows alternatives.

- Eclipse is good for java development. CDT is a piece of shit (unless you are a nix user, then it's like fresh roses).
- OpenOffice -- you mean than crappy copy of a crappy program?
- GIMP - hahahahahahahahaha, now I know you're joking
- mplayer- mwhat?
- Terminal programs - just what i wanted to do -- spend time learning to type obscure commands. Let's go back to punchcards, too!

2/28/2006 9:16:03 PM

^^ use LaTeX for scientific papers... MUCH nicer than open office's or word's equation editors

I don't like that they don't have PSPICE or MS Money for OS X... Other than that, I don't really have a problem with it, although my opinion does change every now and then.

2/28/2006 9:18:22 PM

Seriously, The Gimp is a piece of shit next to Photoshop. It's a consolation prize, not a substitute.

2/28/2006 9:22:31 PM

mutt is the best mail client on the planet.

Quote :

"Maybe when your time becomes valuable, you won't like wasting it."

also, the whole reason I switched to the Mac was for it's unix functionality. Just because your own ineptitude slows you down on a *nix station doesn't mean that it's the case for everyone, and in fact, for most it's just the opposite.

2/28/2006 10:08:31 PM

^^^^ I'd have to say you're the fucking idiot if you complain about *nix having a lack of functionality and don't understand how to use it. It's a damn shame you might get to work with nuclear material someday.

3/1/2006 4:10:05 AM

And now we have arrived at the typical unix snob's excuse: if it's too hard to use, it's the users fault! That's exactly why your shit is in the sad state that is it.


^^ and that's why you switched to linux or BSD, big man? Oh wait, you switched to OS X...

[Edited on March 1, 2006 at 8:19 AM. Reason : sdf]

3/1/2006 8:13:00 AM

which is a flavor of Unix, which you sweepingly bashed.

I agree with your points on linux and BSD being functionally inferior due to a lack of dev support, but as an OS, it's way more functional than windows, and if the app/dev support is backing it up, you can't beat it.

3/1/2006 8:42:20 AM

^I think you got lost somewhere

smoothcrim: you can gussy up *nix and make it sufficiently like OS X. it's the best of both worlds!
Lowjack: no, it's the worst of both worlds. *nix has crappy support, no software, and user unfriendliness
smoothcrim: here is a list of second rate software than doesn't match the functionality or usability of what you can get on OS X
BobbyDigital: But in OS X, I can use unix apps too!!
Lowjack:...um

The point that I am making is that you cannot gussy up up *nix and make it work anything like OS X. Hell, the fact that copy and paste works across everything is a huge leg up.


[Edited on March 1, 2006 at 5:34 PM. Reason : sdf]

3/1/2006 5:33:14 PM

http://www.frsirt.com/exploits/20060301.xosx-passwd.pl.php

3/2/2006 7:29:52 AM

I like how smoothcrim just skipped my posts entirely.

You know, like the fact that BSD is useless for most of the business world.

3/2/2006 9:06:57 AM

i just farted



and it smells good

3/2/2006 9:09:03 AM

Was that an open-source fart?

3/2/2006 9:09:47 AM

Lowjack clearly doesn't know a goddamn thing about computers. I'd be surprised if he could even turn one on!

3/2/2006 2:45:02 PM

I don't use those applications so I wouldn't serve well to find you good open source tools you could use in *nix, but rest assured something to do the job you need exists. once osx86 catches on a bit more, and x86 apple applications are compiled and shipped, they'll all probably run on plain jane *nix as well, as it'd be stupid for any developer to tie their work to apple libraries. at that point, what's the point in paying for your apple os?

3/2/2006 6:10:06 PM

because its well designed, intuitive, well supported, has a plethora of AWESOME applications that will only run on OSX?

I mean just for starters.

Quote :

"they'll all probably run on plain jane *nix as well"

No, they won't.

[Edited on March 2, 2006 at 6:36 PM. Reason : .]

3/2/2006 6:35:59 PM

am I the only one that finds osx to be unintuitive? I should qualify my statement with, I STARTED ON APPLE AND USED IT FOR YEARS. I mean I guess as my knowledge matures, I see apple for as shitty as it really is. show me an apple "innovation" in the last 4 years that didnt involve an ipod

[Edited on March 2, 2006 at 6:40 PM. Reason : ^ why wouldn't it? what business sense would it make to tie osx86 development to apple libs?]

3/2/2006 6:40:11 PM

For Apple it makes a shitload of sense.

Shit, I'd buy an Apple JUST to use Final Cut Pro. And that shit aint EVER going to be availible for anything else. I was referring to first party applications btw.

And yea, something is wrong with you if you don't find OSX intuitive to use. It may not work the way you WANT it to, but that in no way makes it unintuitive. It still remains the easiest out of the box OS for a consumer to become familiar with, much like MacOS classic was for years before it.

You can talk all the shit you want about Apple's marketing, business strategy, et al.

But you are talking out of your ass if you think for a second that they don't innovate. They spend so much fucking money on interaction design and research it's ridiculous.

[Edited on March 2, 2006 at 7:11 PM. Reason : ]

3/2/2006 6:54:43 PM

ridiculous, even!

3/2/2006 6:58:37 PM

so what innovations have made it to their os/desktops?

3/2/2006 9:34:10 PM

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22apple+was+the+first+to%22

3/2/2006 9:38:18 PM

The developed the "mouse".

That alone makes them impossible to not give props too.

3/2/2006 9:58:03 PM

no they didnt.

but they sure as hell Designed the first one anyone would ever want to use

3/2/2006 10:07:06 PM

Quote :

"as it'd be stupid for any developer to tie their work to apple libraries. "

Yeah, if they didn't want to take advantage of any of the useful libraries that Apple provides, I guess. And if they wanted the hassle of supporting multiple OSes I guess that would work too.

Quote :

"am I the only one that finds osx to be unintuitive?"

What's unintuitive about it? especialy given that you set up your BSD machine to be as close to OSX as you could get without buying a mac.

Quote :

"show me an apple "innovation" in the last 4 years that didnt involve an ipod"

A unix system you can install and have running in less than a half hour?

Then there's the whole plethora of the Core* technologies.

Exposé is pretty damn impressive.

Then there's spotlight.

launchd or whatever it was that apple wrote to replace the standard *nix launcher was and is regarded as a rather impressive piece of tech.

Rosetta.

Never mind many other pieces of tech that may not have come about in the last 4 years but are still absent or severely lacking in *nix.

Quote :

"^ why wouldn't it? what business sense would it make to tie osx86 development to apple libs?"

Perfect sense for anyone who wants to have an interface for their applications that doesn't look like windows 98 widgets tacked together or who wants to take advantage of core image, core video etc etc.

3/2/2006 11:37:43 PM

^ Apple didn't actually write Rosetta, they bought it from another company.

3/2/2006 11:59:07 PM

^^^ Hehe, what's wrong with this beast?

http://sloan.stanford.edu/MouseSite/Archive/patent/Mouse.html

Yeah... gotta admit this was a pretty nice step up, at least it wasn't wooden:

http://www.ideo.com/portfolio/re.asp?x=50184

[Edited on March 3, 2006 at 1:25 AM. Reason : ]

3/3/2006 1:20:44 AM

Quote :

"am I the only one that finds osx to be unintuitive?"

I personally don't care for it. I don't know if it's necessarily unintuitive, but I just have never sat down to myself and thought "Wow, this is a whole lot better than using a PC", whereas with Windows I'm so used to how it operates that it's completely second nature.

I think Expose (or whatever the thing that happens when you hit F12(?)) is called is pretty neat, though utterly worthless to me given the way I use a computer. Likewise the lack of a taskbar just isn't something I can deal with at this point. I need to know whether I closed X program when I finished Y task, which is something that used to be possible with older MacOS versions (you could click like the top right Finder icon and it would pop up all the running applications, IIRC) that I don't see now.

That part is just confusing to me. Like I said though, I don't know if it's necessarily unintuitive, but when I sit down at a Mac, no longer how long I've been working there, I never feel particularly comfortable with what OSX is doing.

3/3/2006 1:40:01 AM

Quote :

" I need to know whether I closed X program when I finished Y task, which is something that used to be possible with older MacOS versions (you could click like the top right Finder icon and it would pop up all the running applications, IIRC) that I don't see now."

The dock+expose actually makes this a lot easier that the past Mac OS. All running applications have a little black triangle beneath them. I have expose set to activate on corners (so I don't have to fiddle around to find F11 and stuff) too.

However, I do see how some people can get attached to the taskbar.

3/3/2006 1:46:04 AM

Quote :

"I need to know whether I closed X program when I finished Y task"

this is probably my biggest beef with mac os.

i like to see exactly what i have open.

I mean like the last time a used a mac was a g4 notebook running osx. When i'd close i window i expect for the program to be gone with it, but its not. And knowing that that program is "hiding" in the background nags at me. From years of PC use I always like to know whats running on my computer, both as services and foreground tasks. When OSX hides a foreground task in the name of "ease of use" it just makes me grumble and search for the program to actually kill it.

3/3/2006 9:55:33 AM

^

Quote :

"The dock+expose actually makes this a lot easier that the past Mac OS. All running applications have a little black triangle beneath them."

3/3/2006 10:12:47 AM

i hate the doc

3/3/2006 10:13:15 AM

The "click the 'X' to close" issue is simply another way of approaching the system function.

In the Mac OS an application typically runs independantly of the windows it displays. The "proper" way to close any program is to formally quit it (either from the menu or Command-Q). In Windows, the application is typically bound to a parent window that when closed ends the program.

There are cases for both, but it comes down to personal preference.

On OS X youc an easily find which programs are open by looking at the dock and noting which ones have the arrow benieth them. You can also use Command-Tab and cycle through all open programs.

Quote :

"so what innovations have made it to their os/desktops?"

Apple brought a lot of technologies to the OS before MS did.

They had text-to-speech in the OS since the 1990s (and still do in OS X). They also brought speech recognition to the OS.

OS X features handwriting recognition as a means of input (Inkwell) based on the Newton.

I love the system-wide spell-check and dictionary functionality.

Spotlight is amazing once you start using it. Searching on a Windows PC after using Spotlight for a while is painful.

These are just a few; I am so used to the features now that they hardly even seem innovative anymore. It is just stuff that XP is lacking.

3/3/2006 10:13:45 AM

are all possible programs shown in the doc?

3/3/2006 10:15:57 AM

I said in the last four years. I will whole-heartedly admit apple used to have the best engineers, and the best products years ago, but now they've "sold out" and are all about some fucking mp3 players instead of their claim to fame in the first place, innovative software coupled with superior hardware. Also, I'm not real familiar with spotlight, but it sounds like google desktop, or a beefed up windows indexing service that just indexes your drives. I know where I put shit on my computer, so these resource/drive hogs irritate me. Expose pisses me off in that it's almost necessary to make osx feel somewhat useable but it uses a ton of resources unnecessarily. I use *nix for control and configurability, both of which apple takes away from me.

3/3/2006 10:19:32 AM

Damn, some of you dorks are pathetic. You're so worried about your precious resources, and anything that makes use of them throws up a red flag. They are there to be used. How often do you max them out? Do you get a boner from using only 10% of available RAM? How about 20% of your HD space? 30% of your processing power? OMG, God forbid that indexing application in the background use 1% of your cycles. Get real.

3/3/2006 10:25:40 AM

indexing your hard drive constantly, will kill any game that doesn't fit into ram. having something constantly hit disk is the surest way to noticably slowdown a machine. I've got a gig of ram and an a64 3000+ at 2.1ghz (1:1) and I see 100% ram and cpu usage very often, atleast 20% of the time I'm at my pc.

3/3/2006 10:31:23 AM

its as much about resource usage as just generally knowing what is running and what its doing to your computer.

3/3/2006 10:45:03 AM

Spotlight isn't constantly indexing the drive. It indexes the drive once (after a fresh OS install), and then on a by-file creation basis afterwards (it seems) which is pretty much instantaneous.

3/3/2006 2:54:20 PM

Quote :

"I said in the last four years."

I dont recall you specifying this.

But since you say their claim to fame is innovative software and superior hardware (which they've never ever had).

Garageband
iPhoto
iLife in general
iDVD
iTunes (which, as mp3 player sellout as you think it may be, is an incredibly well designed piece of software and service)
Final Cut
Shake

On the consumer, end user side.

Their developer tools are apparently fucking top notch now, which is something that had been seriously lacking in Classic.

As for the long rant on Spotlight, if you dont need it, get rid of it or just turn it off. Jesus, its not like Apple will steal your first born child for not using the damn thing. Like ANY of us have ever left the indexing service on in windows?

--------------------------

For Stein and Shaggy: it's a completely different animal. like going from a car to a motorcycle or vice versa. not that one is really any better than the other, just semantically different from the ground up.

[Edited on March 3, 2006 at 7:20 PM. Reason : .]

3/3/2006 7:10:40 PM

The free developer tools are fucking great, but Objective C hurts my brain.

The best thing about programming for System 7 was the like 30 lines of calls to the random system functions to, you know, let you use fonts and shit.

3/3/2006 7:17:40 PM

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2006/20060303.jpg

I don't know if that'll show.

3/3/2006 7:57:58 PM