I liked how SPK just jumped right into proving rape in a court of law instead of considering a more plausible situation in which the woman would sign an generic confidential statement at the clinic attesting that she had been raped.

3/9/2006 1:00:35 PM

^That is how I would think it should be handled. But these guys are concerned about women who lie and sign the form anyway.

3/9/2006 1:01:46 PM

sss

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 1:01 PM. Reason : sss]

3/9/2006 1:01:46 PM

quote them expressing that concern.

3/9/2006 1:02:16 PM

Quote :

"This is particularly horrific. You seem to recognize that abortions are generally undesirable (since this is the only reason you still support it), but apparently they aren't undesirable enough that you would let a woman's feelings and pride get hurt in order to prevent it."

3/9/2006 1:03:26 PM

But fuck all my abortion talk. Let's look at this:

Quote :

"The reason why women can get abortions and give their children up for adoption is that men refused to take responsibility for so long. Now the courts are stepping in and forcing men to take responsibility. And let's say the courts successfuly forced men to pay child support all the time. Well, with every man taking responsibilty and paying child support, it sounds like we've got an argument against the availability abortion, not an argument against having to pay child support."

3/9/2006 1:09:44 PM

When the morning after pill can be taken after an instance of rape (which is much less controversial since there is no conception) then why is "rape" used as a case to allow all abortions? Bridget, you said yourself that you would be fine if an innocent child died because the mother claimed rape even if she wasn't. Why the fuck not take the morning after pill?

It's a cop out. THe only reason rape is used to protect abortion is because a) if you disagree, you look like a bastard and b) because of a, people will be more likely to accept it. It's a smart marketing ploy, but unfortunately, that's all it is.

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 1:13 PM. Reason : .]

3/9/2006 1:13:24 PM

^^

Quote :

"but men have been paying child support as long as women have been getting legal abortions"

3/9/2006 1:15:55 PM

Okay, fine, I'll let you guys have your victory over conniving whores everywhere because you know, there are just so many of them.

I'm sorry for getting in this thread. I just object to the repeated assertion that women are all trying to get pregnant as single mothers in order to skeeze child support or a man. Let me tell you: Living a lower class lifestyle is totally worth it if you're getting $100 every month from a man that hates you.

The problem is that I don't really care either way.

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 1:17 PM. Reason : sss]

3/9/2006 1:16:35 PM

Isn't sarcasm used when you have no other arguments?

3/9/2006 1:18:01 PM

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP, I have actually had a huge change in my views about sex and abortion."

Fair enough.

Quote :

"What do you suppose we should do? Should a woman have to prove in a court of law that she was raped if she wants to secure an abortion?"

To be honest, I think the number of conceptions that happen as a result of rape are so infinitessimally small that I'm not sure they deserve any different treatment.

Otherwise, I say it's fairly easy to determine whether or not a girl has been raped. Sure, it's an unpleasant and intrusive examination, but it's not as unpleasant and intrusive as a fucking abortion.

Quote :

"If they don't wanna say shit or see a bunch of power-tripping, skeptical dudes in uniform, they shouldn't have to."

I think we're getting to the root of your whole problem here, just with the use of the word "dudes."

It also appears that you grossly misunderstood my statement earlier ("This is particularly horrific...") It had nothing to do with women lying, which you seem to claim. It had everything to do with saying that, "If abortion is bad, then stopping it should be worth making a woman undergo a simple examination to prove she was raped, or at least just signing a form to the effect that she was raped."

Quote :

"I just object to the repeated assertion that women are all trying to get pregnant as single mothers in order to skeeze child support or a man."

I can't recall ever hearing this

ever

at any time

from any body

in any thread

3/9/2006 1:22:23 PM

^^Oh yeah. I didn't have any arguments to start with. I was just tryna be contrary because I knew you guys were gonna get all excited like this confirms the fact that women are scheming whores.

^To your first few points: yeah, whatever, I was just tryna argue.

^To your last point: You're not paying attention then. Maybe they're just jokes, but I've read it plenty.

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 1:27 PM. Reason : sss]

3/9/2006 1:23:32 PM

BSPK-

A case for abortion.

3/9/2006 1:28:28 PM

SandSanta, I'm wide fucking open for attacks. I've said so much bullshit in this thread for you to criticize. THIS IS YOUR CHANCE!!! It will come again soon, but for now, you better get on it and come up with something better than that^.

3/9/2006 1:32:03 PM

Bridget totally turns me on

3/9/2006 1:33:46 PM

So, you think you're spongeworthy?




[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 1:36 PM. Reason : .]

3/9/2006 1:35:10 PM

Quote :

"Furthermore, after a rape, I do not think the victim should have to go to a police station. If they don't wanna say shit or see a bunch of power-tripping, skeptical dudes in uniform, they shouldn't have to."

OK. if you don't want to go to the police, then deal with the baby. besides, pregnancies from rape are rare enough anyway, so whats the harm? Even better, lets keep the system the way it is so that women don't report rape and the cycle of violence continues... makes sense to me.

3/9/2006 1:36:58 PM

HOARD THE SPONGES!

3/9/2006 2:04:53 PM

What are you going to do when some of these children go on medicaid?

3/9/2006 2:10:15 PM

^? I thought you were pro-life. Answer to your question: raise taxes? I dunno.

3/9/2006 2:17:59 PM

ummmm, same thing we do w/ anyone else...

3/9/2006 2:18:46 PM

^and what is that????

3/9/2006 2:32:42 PM

ummm, same thing we do with anyone else that "needs" medicare...

3/9/2006 2:36:38 PM

^how do we provide it? what is the news with regards to medicare/medicaid in this country lately? have you done much reading on the subject?

3/9/2006 2:50:04 PM

Quote :

"Furthermore, after a rape, I do not think the victim should have to go to a police station. If they don't wanna say shit or see a bunch of power-tripping, skeptical dudes in uniform, they shouldn't have to."

This is ridiculous. Yes, telling a cop that you were raped is much more intrusive than inserting tubes, knives, scapels, all kinds of shit in your COUG to rip a baby out. Right, the former is much more intrusive.

3/9/2006 2:56:09 PM

^You're setting it up as one or the other. It's not one or the other. You get raped. You opt not to report it. You don't get pregnant.

You get raped. You opt not to report it. You do get pregnant. No abortion for you because you chose not to report it?

3/9/2006 3:09:11 PM

yeah, pretty much. I personally don't see the point in not reporting it. You're already gonna be emotionally fucked up, so what is a little more drama?



this is talking about being raped by a random person, i guess it would be different if it was by someone close to you

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 3:16 PM. Reason : ]

3/9/2006 3:14:10 PM

^^ Yeah. You don't report it, you don't have the abortion. Here's a real news flash. You can get the morning after pill without reporting shit.

There is no excuse.

3/9/2006 3:25:58 PM

Quote :

"how do we provide it? what is the news with regards to medicare/medicaid in this country lately? have you done much reading on the subject?"

and does abortion being legal fix that problem? last time I checked, medicare is already fucked up. obviously abortion aint helping it, so why bring that into the conversation? its fucked up either way. the legal status of abortion therefor affects in neither way.

3/9/2006 3:40:16 PM

^^That's no news flash.

^Talk to JennMc about that. But anyway, you're talking about fucked up and more fucked up--there's a difference! I do think abortion substantially decreases the number of unwanted children in this country, which naturally takes some burden off of public services. What don't you get about that?

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 3:46 PM. Reason : sss]

3/9/2006 3:45:44 PM

there's nothing to get about that. does abortion SOLVE the probem of unwanted children? if not, then the problem of unwanted children is independent of the question of abortion's legal status. They'll exist with abortion, and they'll exist without it. what don't you get about that?

3/9/2006 3:49:03 PM

^More of them will exist under one circumstance than the other. What don't you get about that?

3/9/2006 3:49:57 PM

do you care to back up that assertion with hard facts? There were PLENTY of unwanted children before abortion was legalized. We were struggling with the problem them. We are stuggling with the problem now. What the fuck makes you think that abortion solves that problem?

Furthermore, aren't 3 unwanted children just as bad as 2? Why is "decreasing" their number important? You have to be some kind of pig to suggest such a thing. If you really care to eliminate the problem of unwanted children, then how about you seek to eradicate it completely, instead of just ameliorating it? Hey, if you eliminated the problem of unwanted children, then the need for abortion goes away as well, doesn't it?

3/9/2006 3:54:03 PM

^hey, sometimes people fuck up and want to get rid of the problem. that's all that really matters.

3/9/2006 3:55:14 PM

^^You just put a whole bunch of words into my mouth.

You keep saying that the legal status of abortion doesn't affect things (unwanted children, Medicaid/Medicare) either way.

AND THAT'S FUCKING BULLSHIT.

IT'S FUCKING OBVIOUS THAT IT DOES AFFECT THINGS.

LESS UNWANTED BIRTHS = LESS UNWANTED CHILDREN

LESS UNWANTED CHILDREN = LESS BURDEN ON SOCIETY

JUST BECAUSE THINGS ARE STILL FUCKED UP, DOESN'T MEAN ABORTION HASN'T AFFECTED THINGS EITHER WAY.

NOW I DON'T REALLY THINK ABORTION IS THE KEY TO A PLEASANT SOCIETY, BUT I'M NOT GONNA SIT BACK AND LET YOU SPEW BULLSHIT.

Let's talk about something better:

How do you propose we curb the problem of unwanted pregnancy?

I think we need more education when it comes to safe sex and the STD pandemic.

For starters.

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 4:07 PM. Reason : sss]

3/9/2006 3:59:17 PM

maybe you should exercise the mouth more and you wouldn't have to worry about pregnancy.

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 4:03 PM. Reason : .]

3/9/2006 4:03:15 PM

Quote :

"This is particularly horrific. You seem to recognize that abortions are generally undesirable (since this is the only reason you still support it), but apparently they aren't undesirable enough that you would let a woman's feelings and pride get hurt in order to prevent it."

Bridget, this is beneath you. You know this quote doesn't support what you said to me.

i'll have to reiterate, since you've done such a poor job of backing up your claims:

I like how you just jumped right into proving rape in a court of law instead of considering a more plausible situation in which the woman would sign an generic confidential statement at the clinic attesting that she had been raped.

3/9/2006 4:03:24 PM

^Trust me. A signed form would not be good enough for a lot of policy makers. I've already backed off the "argument" anyway.

^^abonorio, I'm not worried about pregnancy. By the way, my opinions on abortion have changed dramatically since I've discovered that some of my peers are fucking retarded and really are using abortion as birth control. They figure the chances of getting pregnant are pretty slim anyway, so why bother with protection? Have unprotected sex your entire life, and you may have to have two, maybe three abortions...and that is good enough for them. And they are spreading STDs like crazy. I don't know how I feel anymore. I just want people to use condoms.

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 4:13 PM. Reason : sss]

3/9/2006 4:09:10 PM

Quote :

"I've already backed off the "argument" anyway."

damn right

3/9/2006 4:25:59 PM

I understand the premise of the argument

and whether it's ideologically right or wrong is up for debate

but if you get a girl pregnant, and she refuses to get an abortion, that really should go out the window, and you should step up and be a dad

3/9/2006 4:28:36 PM

Duke, with all his lack of logic or reason

has a point

3/9/2006 4:31:24 PM

^^ well said duke.

Also bridget, I respect your willingness to at least have a change of mind. Most people wouldn't for various reasons, pride, ignorance, etc. There are a lot of irresponsible people out there, but as duke said, if the woman refuses to have an abortion, step up, be the man.

3/9/2006 4:35:50 PM

BSPK- Proving the case for abortion one post at a time.

3/9/2006 4:58:01 PM

^Do you really believe that? Or are you trying to be funny? I can't tell.

3/9/2006 5:01:51 PM

I think it probably wouldn't make a big difference if you were suddenly terminated. I'm pretty sure the world has a good percentage of people as dumb as you, but then again you are in the bottom quarterly.

3/9/2006 5:42:51 PM

Quote :

"You keep saying that the legal status of abortion doesn't affect things (unwanted children, Medicaid/Medicare) either way. AND THAT'S FUCKING BULLSHIT. IT'S FUCKING OBVIOUS THAT IT DOES AFFECT THINGS. "

please, enlighten me how you know this.

Quote :

" LESS UNWANTED BIRTHS = LESS UNWANTED CHILDREN LESS UNWANTED CHILDREN = LESS BURDEN ON SOCIETY "

wow, thank you for that burst of brilliance!

Quote :

" JUST BECAUSE THINGS ARE STILL FUCKED UP, DOESN'T MEAN ABORTION HASN'T AFFECTED THINGS EITHER WAY. "

And just because you think abortion has helped doesn't mean it has, either. Like I said, provide some PROOF that abortion actually has an affect on the number of unwanted children and then maybe you'll have a point. Of course, you'll still be an evil fuck, because you'll have to admit that abortion doesn't solve the problem of unwanted children, which means that you don't really care about the unwanted children; you are just using them as political ammunition, which is rather despicable.

Quote :

"NOW I DON'T REALLY THINK ABORTION IS THE KEY TO A PLEASANT SOCIETY, BUT I'M NOT GONNA SIT BACK AND LET YOU SPEW BULLSHIT. "

Thats good that you feel it necessary to spew some yourself. Thx for the spray.

Quote :

" Let's talk about something better: How do you propose we curb the problem of unwanted pregnancy? "

I don't know. How about YOU TELL ME, since you brought it up and all...

Quote :

"I think we need more education when it comes to safe sex and the STD pandemic. For starters."

hey, now you are starting to use your noodle. and maybe, just maybe, if we can get that message across, then we won't need abortion anymore, will we? and MAYBE, if we take away abortion as birth control, which you claim to abhorr, it will get the message across sooner. You think so?

Quote :

"abonorio, I'm not worried about pregnancy. By the way, my opinions on abortion have changed dramatically since I've discovered that some of my peers are fucking retarded and really are using abortion as birth control. They figure the chances of getting pregnant are pretty slim anyway, so why bother with protection? Have unprotected sex your entire life, and you may have to have two, maybe three abortions...and that is good enough for them. And they are spreading STDs like crazy."

Now seriously. Tell me that abortion being legal has had no effect on that situation. Please, tell me that. That, in itself, is almost a half-hearted argument against abortion.

Quote :

"but if you get a girl pregnant, and she refuses to get an abortion, that really should go out the window, and you should step up and be a dad parent"

3/9/2006 5:53:20 PM

^We are pretty much agreeing on things besides this "abortion hasn't affected things either way" nonsense.

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 6:02 PM. Reason : sss]

3/9/2006 6:02:32 PM

thats great. now, if you could PROVIDE PROOF, maybe we can move from here...

otherwise, I'll just say "ABORTION HASN'T CHANGED ANYTHING!!!!" and that will be that. oh, and evolution never happened, but i don't have to provide any proof for that. Oh, and there's a spaghetti monster in the sky, too.

3/9/2006 6:06:16 PM

^i've known people that have had abortions and it changed the fact that they no longer have to worry about having a fucking kid...so it has changed things, at least on a personal level

3/9/2006 6:22:22 PM

Men have virtually no rights what so ever once a woman finds out she is pregnant. I believe that it is a woman's body and she should have ever right she wants with her body. Here is how I would resolve this issue.

The man does not want the child, the woman does. Regardless of what precautions are done these are unproveable things so in order to adress these issues I belive the following should happen.


1) Should the woman wish to keep the child to term, and the man does NOT, the man should pay all medical expenses not covered by insurance (within reason) and should assist with her living expenses (within reason) during the pregnancy. The man must notify the appropriate authorities and fill out the appropriate paperwork stating that he has surrendered his rights as a father. This must be done prior to when an abortion can safely be performed.

1a) The man and woman must seek council for this issue prior to the man being removed from obligation post birth. Should the woman refuse to attend council then man automatically wins.

2) After birth, the man, is no longer obligated to pay for this child or any of the womans living expenses. This child can be given up for adoption or the woman may keep this child at her own expense. The man has absolutely no rights concerning this child. No visitation, no naming, no right to be on the birth certificate or per chance she should perish he would not be the next to recieve the child.

This may sound harsh but I've seen situations where the man was screwed royally. He didn't want to break up with her, but she broke up with him and he was forced to pay outrageously high child support ($3000/month). This is a rare situation but you know... I would like to see at least some rights for men post preganancy and right now there are NONE.

I believe #1 and #2 would give men rights at the beginning of the pregnancy while at the same time allow women to have time to make a decision on their part (Abortion or take to term) knowing the position of the man. This also still allows for a woman to do whatever she feels with her body. I do not in any way agree that a man should say she MUST keep the child. I believe 100% it is her body and her choice.

3/9/2006 6:28:43 PM