Yeah...

I don't know if I'd say style of play so much for rebounding as energy. I mean, yes, the spread offense does cut down on opportunities. But in the last few games, when our margin has been awful, we've been giving up rebounds even when in position. Our guys just seemed tired and weren't really trying.

I do wish we'd use the midrange jumper once in awhile. For example, Wake spends a significant portion of their pre-game shootaround practicing running to the FT line, stepping to the elbow, and shooting. And then they use those mid-range shots a lot (see Chris Paul's buzzer-beater against us last year).

We, on the other hand, never practice those shots in the shootaround, and seem to really lack options for two-pointers. We haven't really been running cuts this year, so if Ced/Brack aren't doing well, we're basically screwed in the halfcourt. There's way too much dependence on a guard being able to drive and finish at the rim.

But I think all of this can be rectified without firing a coach...

3/17/2006 2:03:15 PM

Quote :

"have you considered the fact that over the last 15 years nc state has not made the NCAA tournament using anything other than the current offense?"

3/17/2006 2:04:55 PM

Looking back Herb hasnt had stellar big guys that can dominate inside. This year with Ced he has that presence, but for some reason he is hesitant to stick with it. I am hoping if he continues to develop Ced like he did this year, we will see the offense start to move through him more and more.

Ced just isnt at the level of a she wil, or even E williams to be able to move the ball through him on every possession. Im hoping he can be though.

we dont really have very athletic ball handlers. yes Cam and Gavin are athletic, but they arent very good ball handlers. TB isnt a driver either, he handles pressure well and can shoot the J.

Of anyone, Atsur has shown just as much ability to get to the rim. TB gets blocked, Gavin fouls, but Atsur finishes most of the time when he tries. Once we get quicker ball handlers in I think we will see Herb open up the offense.

3/17/2006 2:08:12 PM

Atsur's decent at driving if we're on the break. I've seen him make some beautiful baseline-to-baseline drives and finish. On the other hand, once the defense is set, he tends to get rejected. Grant has vastly improved lately, hope that continues.

But at the end of the shot-clock, the one guy that doesn't need to have the ball at the top of the key is Atsur. He can't hit a 3 on the move, nor is he good at creating his own opportunity. Tony has that nice step-fake that opens up space for a shot.

3/17/2006 2:11:17 PM

ncWOLFsu

I saw that the first time, and I chose to ignore it

Whereas the offense was first installed becuase we didn't have the athletes to compete in the ACC, I believe it's now holding our potential back.

We have a lot of talent here... we're just not maximizing on it. I couldn't say that 5 years ago...and I had no problem slowing down the game.

3/17/2006 2:12:48 PM

Quote :

"Atsur's decent at driving if we're on the break. I've seen him make some beautiful baseline-to-baseline drives and finish. On the other hand, once the defense is set, he tends to get rejected. "

Ehe, has anyone besides me notice that Atsur will never.... ever... use his left hand for a layup?


Even if the guy is on his right side and he's on the left of the basket, he'll go up with his right hand

3/17/2006 2:14:59 PM

^He's not amphibious.

3/17/2006 2:16:09 PM

maybe he isn't amphibious

^DAMNIT YOU BEAT ME

[Edited on March 17, 2006 at 2:17 PM. Reason : ]

3/17/2006 2:16:53 PM

^I'm always quick to provide the easy, obvious joke.

3/17/2006 2:19:52 PM

dude

its ambidextrious

3/17/2006 2:27:26 PM

We have a lot of talent lol.

Yea, Atsur and Evtimov have clearly shown they can run with ballers.

3/17/2006 2:28:46 PM

Atsur can run... Evtimov, well.


The younger guys are very athletic.


You get Grant, Fells, and Larry Davis (coming in next year) in the open court and we can run with anyone. Cedric is athletic as hell for a big man. We get a damn point guard (yes, I know about Wright) and we'd be something else.

I just can't see a lineup like that standing around and shooting 3's. They could run with just about anyone

3/17/2006 2:36:32 PM

From this point on, I reserve all bitching whining and trolling until after this weekend.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GO PACK.

3/17/2006 2:40:08 PM

^And I fully expect to see us running the break a lot next year.

Trevor, Larry, Courtney, Gavin, combined with Ben, Ced, Dan, Dennis...we'll have plenty of speed.

We were really pushing the break earlier this season, and I think that trend will continue.


I think you'll also see the transition 3 quite often as well (like it or not). That's something Herb was really high on earlier in the year, and it was working out pretty well with Tony and Cam. Hitting those puts some serious hurt on your opponent and also gets your shooting confidence up.

[Edited on March 17, 2006 at 2:43 PM. Reason : 3]

3/17/2006 2:40:16 PM

^ If Herb is here, you can take all of next years freshman out of the mix. It takes a year for them to learn the stupid offense, so we don't get the freshman input that we should.

3/17/2006 2:47:42 PM

^^^thank you, that's respectable


^^i agree

we play to our strengths, and right now we have a lot of great outside shooters. we are losing 3 of our top 4 shooters this year though in ev, cam, and tony. i definitely think we will see a different style next year if herb stays. i'm not saying a completely different concept, but there's a really good chance we will adapt greatly and shift to something closer to what many of you have been wanting.

[Edited on March 17, 2006 at 2:50 PM. Reason : ]

3/17/2006 2:47:56 PM

Herb plays freshmen when we need them/when they're ready. I think Costner would've gotten good minutes this year if not for that stress fracture. (That reminds me, I forgot him on that list I just wrote out.)

We will most likely need Davis next year because we're losing two guards and Ev, who spends a lot of time in the backcourt.

3/17/2006 2:51:12 PM

Quote :

"thank you, that's respectable"

its not respectable

he is essentially saying he is going to wait to bitch until after we lose this weekend

3/17/2006 2:54:47 PM

it's more respectable than 90% of the other people on this board, and people that submit editorials in the technician bashing herb on the day of our game. if none of that other shit was going on then i would agree with you, but in light of the atmosphere right now, i'd say it's respectable.

3/17/2006 2:56:08 PM

Quote :

""I don't know if I grew up a State fan, I think I grew up an ACC fan." "Obviously my very first job in college coaching was with one of the great Wolfpack's of all-time, Eddie Biedenbach. Through all that I've always been a fan of NC State, obviously." "Herb was one of those guys that worked 18 hours a day. Always there, never stopped." "When Herb stands up to talk you realize that he is the smartest guy in the room, he makes more sense than anybody, and he's the guy that should be in charge." "I don't think there is a finer coach anywhere. I look around at the job he's done at NC State, I think it's remarkable really." "I know this, if there was any job open today, if the NC State job was open today, and Herb Sendek was somewhere else, he'd be one of the first people they would call. He's going to do it right, he's going to do it in the way that the players are going to love it, and you have to admire him for the way he goes about his business." "I'll be quite frank, I don't think it has ever been fair for the way he has been treated. I think he is one of the most underated coaches. I think he has poured everything he's had into the State job, and I don't think they can find a better coach to coach their team than him." "Yea it really does bother me because if you want me to be quite blunt I've got one of the best jobs in the country. Yea, I grew up in North Carolina but I have no desire to coach in the Atlantic Coast Conference or coach anywhere else other than Texas. It bothers me more, not so much about that, it bothers me more that Herb hasn't been appreciated the way he should be appreciated." "I was there when he first started. I know what he walked into, I know the problems they were having when he got there, what he did with the program. There's a lot of coaches, a lot of programs that would like to have his resume right now. He's had great success, he's going to continue to have great success, but what bothers me most of all is he deserves more than the way he's being treated." "I just know there is no finer person and I don't want to see anybody that's been treated the way he's been treated, especially with the kind of job he's done for them." "They are going to be a hard team to defend, you can't take anytime off." "It would be better if Herb and I could play one-on-one because we would win if it was up to me and him playing." "

http://northcarolinastate.scout.com/2/510348.html

3/19/2006 5:14:14 AM

Quote :

"Pitino used a lot of 3's when he coached at Providence, but as soon as he got to a major conference he started playing a more athletic offense led by great PG's and big men...and really began an inside-out gameplan "

Woah woah woah. Pitino still loved to jack up crazy threes when he was at Kentucky and he has continued to do that at Louisville.

Pitino brought the 3-point shot as a way to run an offense to the big stage in the NCAA.

3/19/2006 12:58:08 PM

Right, but he didn't rely solely on it like we tend to do. He still had great PG's and made an inside game a huge part of his gameplan.

Many a time in Herb's tenure we try to drain the shot clock and chunk up a stupid shot as time runs out. Pitino...although he still shoots a lot of 3's, plays a very uptempo game, runs the floor, and will always have a good inside game

3/19/2006 1:02:31 PM

yeah, we should probably try recruiting a top PG and do this with our offense as well. what the FUCK is herb thinking?

3/19/2006 1:09:43 PM

^^I can't name a great point guard that played under Rick Pitino. Tony Delk maybe?? He was kind of a SG too. That's the only one that I know that played in the NBA (and I'm not sure that he was a pure point for Rick).

Pitino loved three point shooters. He liked guards and forwards shooting the three. And he always had one really good big man (which is what we're trying to do too...first with Josh Powell, not with Cedric Simmons).

I'm not saying Herb and Pitino's offenses are alike..because they aren't. But Pitino loved the three just as much as Herb. He just had better players. He had an AA guard that could take it to the basket with the clock running down or a great big man to throw it in to. I think we're slowly getting to that with Cedric and Fells....and Wright coming in another year.

3/19/2006 1:21:56 PM

really the key is if we can get wright's friend julian vaughn to come too. that would be a fucking awesome recruiting class.

3/19/2006 1:24:55 PM

how many years has it taken herb to get a point guard worth a damn? 10?


you better not say bether either. he was a shooting guard, not a point guard at Georgetown

3/19/2006 1:36:48 PM

Quote :

"^^I can't name a great point guard that played under Rick Pitino. Tony Delk maybe?? He was kind of a SG too. That's the only one that I know that played in the NBA (and I'm not sure that he was a pure point for Rick). Pitino loved three point shooters. He liked guards and forwards shooting the three. And he always had one really good big man (which is what we're trying to do too...first with Josh Powell, not with Cedric Simmons). I'm not saying Herb and Pitino's offenses are alike..because they aren't. But Pitino loved the three just as much as Herb. He just had better players. He had an AA guard that could take it to the basket with the clock running down or a great big man to throw it in to. I think we're slowly getting to that with Cedric and Fells....and Wright coming in another year."

Delk was the one in particular I was thinking... I can't name names but it seems like he always had a great PG and they ran the floor really well.

Where I was going with that wasn't that I hate the 3 point shot. I realize a lot of teams shoot a lot of 3's. We, however, seem to rely on in too much. Whereas Pitino's teams will run the floor and score or if they aren't shooting well, they'll go inside, we usually don't.

This offense sometimes miffs me becuase all we seem to do in certain games is start the Harlem Globetrotters weave at halfcourt, pass the ball around until there's :10 on the shot clock, then shoot up some bullshit with time winding down.

I'm not saying I hate 3's. I hate 3's when you live and die by them. They can be a great compliment to an inside game... but a lot of times, that's the only thing in our arsenal.

3/19/2006 1:36:51 PM

I could write a freakin 50 page paper on how I feel about our offense. I'm really torn on it. Some of my main takes on it:

- I LOVE having 4, sometime 5 guys on the floor that can hit the three. I couldn't imagine having to prepare for that as an opposing coach. You have to account for almost everyone, it hurts/prevents you from doubling down on the big man, and it gives you a better chance of coming back from a big deficit (see Wake Forest games at home last year and this year).

- We don't go down low enough. However, there have been two years in the five years that Herb's been running this offense that we've had a LEGIT low post threat. Josh Powell's sophomore year and this year with Cedric. At the end of the year when Josh was blowing up, we went to him on a consistent basis. I don't know what's up with Cedric. When he puts forth the effort to get position and is not double teamed, he can be a force. But I don't think he's as good right now as Josh Powell was his sophomore year (but he will be better). Our guards will get the ball on the elbow numerous times, look to the paint, and Big Ced is not even close to being in position. It would be so easy to guard him if I were an opposing big man. That being said...we need to make a more concerted effort to get the ball to him in the paint. The coaches need to teach him how to get better position or at least light a fire under his ass to make him work harder.

- All the cuts and weaves are nice when the players are running it precise and smooth. I would hate to be a defender having to run consistently on defense and always having to worry about my man cutting to the basket. You have to understand they have to stay close to our guys because they can all hit threes, which in turn leads to over-pursuit which allows for the cuts. HOWEVER...it often seems like our guys are just going through the motions. This is when our offense looks stagnant and the shot clock becomes a factor. I guess the saying goes with every offense, but as a player, you can't set half-ass picks and make half-ass cuts.

- I use to complain that we didn't run...until this year. Even fans who don't like our offense have to admit that we've run a lot more this year than in year's past. Even on made baskets our guys sometimes take the ball out quick and push it up the floor. Could we run more?? I guess we could...but we have run A LOT this year.

- As much as this was discussed before the year began, it needs to be brought up again....we still don't have that go to scorer. I'm talking about a Reyshaun Terry, Justin Gray, JJ Redick, Diaz, type scorer. A shooting guard who can take it to the basket at any time but also create space for a jump shot. We have guys that can "kind of" do that in Bethel and Cam, and I think a future guy who can do that in Grant. I'm hoping Fells can be that guy for us in the next couple of years. This is what makes our offense look so bad when the shot clock runs down. Most other teams at least have a guy that drives to the basket when there's only 5 seconds left in the shot clock....our guys pass it around and take a three pointer 5-feet behind the arc.



There are lots of pros and cons with our offense. When our guys are running it hard and hitting a decent amount of their shots...the offense looks great. When you have a strong low post guy, it makes the offense even tougher to defend. Add to that a dynamic 2-guard...and I think you've got a great offense. I think Herb has consistently tweaked the offense to fit around our players (like Powell and Simmons) and I think (or hope) that he will continue to do so.

3/19/2006 2:02:32 PM

I agree with just about everything in that post... both pro's and cons

Especially:

Quote :

"HOWEVER...it often seems like our guys are just going through the motions. This is when our offense looks stagnant and the shot clock becomes a factor."

Half the time we don't even look to throw the ball to the cutters... it's like you said, they're just going through the motions.

I really would like to see us establish a permanent inside game (As in, always have a skilled big man), and do a lot more dribble penetration. Bennerman, Grant, Fells, and Davis (next year) are the type of players that prefer to use thier athleticism and take the ball to the hoop.

I wish we'd start utilizing our athletic guys a lot more in this sense. Not just with backdoors, but driving to the basket, collapsing a defense, and either dishing it to another person in the lane or even kicking it out for a 3. Most of our 3's come not from someone else drawing the defense by driving the lane, but a weak pick up at the top after we've done "the weave" for awhile

I also wish we'd practice the fast break more. Our team really looks lost when it gets the chance to run... especially Grant. I'm not sure if that's becuase he's young, or if it's just not a point of emphasis, but I'd like to see it more (and more under control)

Nice post. Couldn't agree more

3/19/2006 2:12:23 PM

^that's his biggest problem yes. but there's plenty of others.

lack of fundamentals, lack of inspired play and motivation, horrible substitutions, cannot draw up a play in game to save his life.

so if he fixed those, sure i'd love him. but come on.

and Mr. Grace, are you serious?

3/19/2006 2:26:35 PM

^ One mountain to climb at a time. Switching things up would be a good start


Oh, You forgot rebounding

3/19/2006 2:30:45 PM

yea, that was included in fundamentals

3/19/2006 2:32:41 PM

Herb makes average players good and great players good. Run an offense that exploits mismatches and natural athletic ability, not this communist shit.

3/19/2006 2:33:21 PM

bttt

3/19/2006 7:07:05 PM

Quote :

"you aint shit signed, herb sendek 3-19-06"

Quote :

"herb is gonna beat the dogshit out of barnes, then beat iowa, then duke, then memphis, then unc in the championship, then peace the fuck out cause ncsu fans suck at life"

AHAHAHAHA.


sorry.

3/19/2006 11:29:06 PM

Yah

Anyone gonna make fun of me for thinking Barnes is better than Herb now? (Since I tend to be the butt of all Barnes jokes)

3/19/2006 11:31:54 PM

.

[Edited on March 19, 2006 at 11:55 PM. Reason : ut]

3/19/2006 11:53:57 PM

/thread

3/19/2006 11:54:49 PM

Rick Barnes: Give me yo job, sendek

3/19/2006 11:55:19 PM

Rick Barnes: Have yo shit cleared out of my office come morning, bitch.

3/19/2006 11:56:43 PM

Rick Barnes: "I was just kidding about all that shit I said"

3/19/2006 11:57:32 PM

Quote :

"cannot draw up a play in game to save his life."

Well to his credit, we did pull out a win over Cal after a timeout when Cam hit that 3.

How can you say that Barnes outcoached Herb that bad??? Maybe a little bit. NBA talent like that should win 99 times out of 100. Gibson, Aldridge, and Tucker will be top 10 NBA picks.

3/19/2006 11:57:50 PM

http://www.statefansnation.com/index.php/archives/2005/02/05/flashback-beowulfs-top-10-excuses/

[Edited on March 20, 2006 at 12:03 AM. Reason : #4]

3/20/2006 12:02:41 AM

Rick Barnes: I'm still not gonna leave $Texas for you whiny bitches.

3/20/2006 12:04:15 AM

Bad fans

3/20/2006 12:05:42 AM

Quote :

"Surprisingly, many of the same people who made those excuses for O?Cain missed the fact that players began making the tackles, catching the passes and holding on to the football better under a different football staff well-known for drilling the fundamentals of that sport. The inability to understand this fundamental fact is stupidity."

Haha Yeah Chuck really taught T.A. to hold onto the ball well.

That is from like 2001.

3/20/2006 12:07:07 AM

No matter when it's made... it still holds true. I've heard every one of those used for years

[Edited on March 20, 2006 at 12:15 AM. Reason : ]

3/20/2006 12:08:18 AM

HAHAHA, this list is awesome, especially since it was written in 2001. This is great for those new herb supporters who don't understand history

Quote :

"Alternate title: If you utter at least one of the following excuses next year, you are stupid 1. Wait, just think how good we’ll be with all these great recruits coming in next year! 2. It’s not the coach’s fault the players miss the shots and turn the ball over. 3. You can’t blame the coach for injuries. 4. You can’t expect us to beat a ranked team. 5. NC State has been so down for so long that it takes longer than it did at Virginia, Georgia Tech, Clemson … 6. Just wait till we have the horses to run the Kentucky offense. 7. Dean Smith was hung in effigy in his third year, and Coach K didn’t make the NCAAs until his fourth! 8. Just because you fire a coach doesn’t mean you’ll get one better than the one you have now. 9. Firing Herb now only sets us back another three years or more. 10. Don’t give up! Don’t ever give up!"

3/20/2006 12:10:37 AM

This year's main one was #2....with #5 coming in a close second


8 and 9 for honorable mention

[Edited on March 20, 2006 at 12:12 AM. Reason : ]

3/20/2006 12:11:53 AM

I think 1 is also an honorable mention. "OMF, when chris wright gets here, herb won't coach all the creativity and athletic ability out of him!!!" or "We'll finally have the 5 star talent necessary to run around in a circle really quickly!!"

[Edited on March 20, 2006 at 12:13 AM. Reason : sdfsdf]

3/20/2006 12:13:07 AM