"their own jordans" we had one, that was it, and that is the difference, and they will not do what he did....they will fuck up from being selfish (some of them have already proved that, Kobe, AI...Lebron?)

5/21/2006 6:34:05 PM

true they didnt have a cap then but also the players werent getting the exorbatent money they do nowadays

they won 11 titles in 13 years because they had one of the best centers, point guards and coaches in nba history in russell, cousy and auerbach

how in the hell has lebron "fucked up by being selfish"?

5/21/2006 6:34:16 PM

Lebron's offensive skills are off the charts. Teams triple and quadruple team him to get the ball away from him. Not even Kobe gets that. Whenever he learns to play defense, he might just become the best of all time.

5/21/2006 6:34:53 PM

boston bought the league out just like the yankees did, I give credit for skill, but I do not hold that to my heart as a true test

lebron might figure it out, that why I had the ??

Packman: Read "The Jordan Rules" hmmmm

[Edited on May 21, 2006 at 6:38 PM. Reason : .]

5/21/2006 6:35:13 PM

i just think one of the many things that has impressed me about Lebron is his selflessness and maturity and composure at this age...jordan did not have the same composure at this age...he was more like kobe now, trying to do it all himself...jordan got 63 points in a playoff game that bulls lost to the celtics...it wasnt until he understood the distribution aspect that the bulls started going on a tear...lebron seems to already have that part down pretty well

5/21/2006 6:37:32 PM

WAIT WAIT WAIT


I couldnt even get halfway through the first page of this thread before i read that Lebron has better supporting talent than Kobe.


Are you SERIOUS?

It's not even close, the Cavaliers are absolutely disgraceful. They had open shots all game and they managed to go 9-41 FG

5/21/2006 6:38:06 PM

there's no way to know if lebron will maintain and improve on his current talent until 5-10 years from now.

5/21/2006 6:38:41 PM

he is proving himself, that is why I will not disagree all the way against him( thus the ?). If he wins some rings then he could be compared, but that has to happen for me to agree.

5/21/2006 6:39:57 PM

rally i did not say that

5/21/2006 6:40:48 PM

Quote :

"It's not even close, the Cavaliers are absolutely disgraceful. They had open shots all game and they managed to go 9-41 FG"

its easy to take that side if you only look at today's game and dont look at anything else like the fact that Kobe has Lamar Odom and NOTHING ELSE and they somehow got up 3-1 on the Suns

5/21/2006 6:41:03 PM

tree do not worry about rally, he is the anti-vonjordan3, no matter what I say, he has the exact opposite view

5/21/2006 6:42:38 PM

rally knows plenty but I would rather play with Ilgauskas, Hughes, Snow, Marshall and Murray than Odom and Kwame Brown and Smush Parker

5/21/2006 6:44:25 PM

Quote :

"when we were kids"

We're not talking about "us."

5/21/2006 6:46:13 PM

i disagree, rally did you not argue that the league is better now than in the 90s? I think that was you, a couple of months ago, or am I wrong?

5/21/2006 6:46:45 PM

^^huh?

5/21/2006 6:47:19 PM

Quote :

"how so? Ruths shit wasn't filmed, it all from books. No has as many game winning shots on film, that is what made us want to be jordan when we were kids....geez guys, that is what will be remembered."

This misses the argument completely. It's about what people x years from now will remember, not what we remember. People in the future will not remember a guy they have never seen and whose accomplishments have long been surpassed.

[Edited on May 21, 2006 at 6:51 PM. Reason : sdfsdf]

5/21/2006 6:50:42 PM

^ I have to go right now, But I will reply later I promise

Later

5/21/2006 6:55:16 PM

the Cavs suck for lebron.

THey try to run pick & rolls but they dont have a single player who can roll to the basket except MAYBE Varejao.

Hughes is a penetrator, but they dont need that because lebron can get to the basket.

Donyell is okay b/c he can shoot and rebound.

Zydrunas was horrible until about game 5 because he just cant move well enough out there and isnt a good fit with lebron.

Flip Murray was disgraceful this series. What was he about 8-90?

Drew Gooden did nothing.

Damon Jones is horrible. Not only is he a complete liability in every phase of the game, he can't even hit open jumpers anymore.

If he doesn't demand a trade to Chicago he's completely nuts. He has to leave thru free agency or I hate him.

You've got the next Magic Johnson and there's no one to pass to....

5/21/2006 6:57:40 PM

^^^yeah thats the point i was trying to make

^he doesnt have the best supporting cast but what does Kobe have? Odom puts up a triple double and the Lakers lose by 10

5/21/2006 6:57:44 PM

the lakers have guys who fill roles...

Mihm, Brown, George, Walton, etc


Lebron James is the biggest mismatch in the game. The fact that they absolutely refuse to make shots for him is a joke.

The Lakers scored the basketball against Phoenix except for game 7.

The Lakers were actually moving the ball and shit well the whole series and KObe played good team ball...

Lebron had to force the action too much because no one else on that team could create their own shot or shots for others.... They couldnt even execute a two man game with him. That was just atrocious offense.

5/21/2006 7:06:30 PM

well the Cavs played well in games 2-6

and Hughes isnt a great player but they missed him in games 2-6? when he was consoling with his family after his brother's death

neither of them have great help...Odom is solid...Brown would be a solid PF but he cant play center...Ilgauskas is usually solid...everybody else is hit or miss on both teams

5/21/2006 7:12:36 PM

I disagree that they played well.

I thought they played pretty shitty in games 1-7.

Varejao was nice.

Rest of the team choked.

5/21/2006 7:22:17 PM

you even think they played shitty in their 3 wins?

5/21/2006 7:24:47 PM

Back to the Lebron debate, think about this.

He's 21 with 3 years under his belt. If he plays to age 35, he'll have played for 17 years.


I think somewhere around year 8-9, Jordan's relevance will fade - not into oblivion, but he will have less of an impact on the youth of that timeframe (~2014's teenagers, aka the millennium babies). they will see little, but hear much; I'm sure Oscar Robertson was an awesome player, but I've seen game footage of him all of 3 times.

Quote :

""their own jordans" we had one, that was it,"

you had players modeling their games after Hakeem, James Worthy, Charles Barkley, Bird, Isiah Thomas, etc. as well

right now the front-runners are lebron and kobe. kobe is pretty much hit-or-miss, you either love him or hate him. lebron doesn't have to deal with that as much - some people felt carmelo was/is the better of the two, and those same some people are absolutely full of shit

[Edited on May 21, 2006 at 10:15 PM. Reason : 12345678910]

5/21/2006 10:13:57 PM

lebron needs to realize, like jordan did, that he can dunk on anyone at anytime.

5/21/2006 10:26:49 PM

WITNESS

5/21/2006 10:36:45 PM

A REAL NAIL BITER

5/21/2006 11:05:02 PM

Today during the game the announcer said that Scottie Pippen was quoted saying that Lebron is better than Jordan was after 3 years in the pros.

When does Lebron's contract run-out? He will get offered some big contracts.

5/21/2006 11:31:26 PM

hes not going anywhere

5/21/2006 11:47:49 PM

the knicks will get him

[Edited on May 22, 2006 at 12:13 AM. Reason : stern would not allow it]

5/22/2006 12:12:45 AM

if lebron goes to the knicks

i won't have any fucking respect for him

because at that point, he would be putting the dollars ahead of the game

5/22/2006 12:19:25 AM

Why is that?

What does it matter if he carries a shitty major market team over a shitty smaller market team?

5/22/2006 12:25:58 AM

^ clause in his nike deal will pay him more if he plays in NY, LA, or Chitown

5/22/2006 12:26:47 AM

what are you talking about shitty team?

he had the cavs 1 win away from the eastern finals

i'd be amazed if he got the knicks to 30 wins

5/22/2006 12:55:10 AM

he's already got a $100 million dollar contract with Nike, as well as whatever the hell he gets paid for Sprite and whatever else...he's not gonna go to the shit ass Knicks for a measly few extra 12 million

5/22/2006 3:14:07 AM

Quote :

"what are you talking about shitty team? he had the cavs 1 win away from the eastern finals i'd be amazed if he got the knicks to 30 wins"

What I'm saying is the Cavs would probably be about as bad as the Knicks if it weren't for James.

5/22/2006 4:00:16 AM

Sorry it took so long, I had a dinner and shit to do. Ruth was remembered because he changed the game. Jordan also changed the game. The style of play that most of these guys play, are imitations of what Jordan created. My point was Jordan was much more documented than Ruth was because of technology. I believe we arguing about who would be remembered 20 years from now as #23? Jordan will, not Lebron. People in the future will reference Jordan, just as Baseball references Babe (even though his “accomplishments have long been surpassed”).

For Sleik, There was one fucking Jordan. I have seen debates on TWW who is better, Lebron or Kobe. I saw debates over AI and Kobe. These debates were not present for Jordan, especially in the 90’s. The media held Jordan above the rest, and so did we.
None of those players “Hakeem, James Worthy, Charles Barkley, Bird, Isiah Thomas” were put at that same level. About every year, new talent comes out and the NBA says “Is he the next Jordan?”
This is a sad fact; Baseball, Football, Hockey, and NASCAR never have some kid out and immediately compare them to the best player on a constant bases.

[Edited on May 22, 2006 at 7:53 AM. Reason : .]

5/22/2006 7:50:20 AM

It's not the same context, though. People are arguing whether Kobe, with 10 years of NBA experience, is better than Lebron, who is 21 years old.

What Lebron is doing right now is amazing.

5/22/2006 7:53:20 AM

that was not what they were talking to me about

5/22/2006 7:54:09 AM

The point is this: Jordan wasn't this good at 21, nor was he this good three years into the league.

So if Lebron continues to develop the way he has, it's reasonable to think he'll surpass Jordan.

5/22/2006 8:05:50 AM

Quote :

"What I'm saying is the Cavs would probably be about as bad as the Knicks if it weren't for James."

ha, no

it'd be tought to say anyone in the league would be as bad as the knicks

5/22/2006 8:49:54 AM

haha what an expensive mess that is...

There is talent there, that is the sad part

and props to LeBron, next year buddy

hopefully tonight my Mavs vs. Pistons final will be one step closer

5/22/2006 9:04:57 AM

"reasonable to think " and that is it, a maybe. Talk to me again in 5 years and maybe I will agree with you.

5/22/2006 12:54:46 PM

HES NOT GOING ANYWHERE

write that down

5/22/2006 1:14:29 PM

Quote :

"People in the future will reference Jordan, just as Baseball references Babe (even though his “accomplishments have long been surpassed”)."

long been surpassed? you mean like tied 2 days ago?

What "records" does Michael Jordan even have? He doesnt hold any records for most points in a game or a season or a playoff game, or most rebounds or assists or steals or anything...he has 6 titles, 2 slam dunk titles...what records does he hold??

5/22/2006 1:16:38 PM

^FYI, Hank Aaron broke Babe's career HR record, not Bonds.

5/22/2006 1:24:31 PM

Quote :

"they will fuck up from being selfish (some of them have already proved that, Kobe, AI...Lebron?)"

wait, what? did you just compare kobe and ai in terms of unselfishness? AI is 100x the team player that kobe is. AI wants to win no matter what. if you want to see why philly isnt good, look to their gm and president. AI took philly to the finals with an old dikembe being their next best player.

Quote :

"the knicks will get him"

bron is up in about 2008. the knicks are cap heavy until AT LEAST 2009/10. they won't be able to pay him.

5/22/2006 1:29:59 PM

you will never be able to compare any other basketball player or any other sports player to michael jordan

he completely dominated his sport

Five-time NBA Most Valuable Player (1987-88, 1990-91, 1991-92, 1995-96, 1997-98)
Ten-time All-NBA First Team selection (1986-87 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98)
Selected in 1996 as one of the "50 Greatest Players in NBA History"
A member of six Chicago Bulls NBA championship teams (1990-91, 1991-92, 1992-93, 1995-96, 1996-97 and 1997-98)
Six-time NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
The 1987-88 NBA Defensive Player of the Year and record nine-time NBA All-Defensive First Team selection (1987-88 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98)
Entering 2002-03, ranked first in NBA history in scoring average (31.0 ppg), second in steals (2,391), fourth in points (30,652) and in field-goals made (11,513), fifth in free-throws made (7,061), sixth in field-goals attempted (23,010) and eighth in free-throws attempted (8,448)
Closed the 1997-98 season as the Bulls' all-time franchise leader in points, rebounds (5,836), assists (5,012), steals, games (930), field-goals made and attempted and free-throws made and attempted (8,115)
Holds the NBA record for most seasons leading the league in scoring (10)
Shares the NBA record with Wilt Chamberlain for most consecutive seasons leading the league in scoring (seven, 1986-87 to 1992-93)
Holds the NBA record for most consecutive games scoring in double-digits (842)
Holds the NBA record for most seasons leading the league in field-goals made (10) and attempted (10)
Led the NBA in steals in 1987-88 (3.16 spg), 1989-90 (2.77 spg) and 1992-93 (2.83 spg)
Holds the NBA single-game records for most free-throws made in one half (20 against the Miami Heat on 12/30/92) and most most free-throws attempted in one half (23 in the same game)
Shares the NBA single-game records for most free-throws made in one quarter (14 against the Utah Jazz on 11/15/89 and against the Miami Heat on 12/30/92) and most free-throws attempted in one quarter (23 against the Miami Heat on 12/30/92)
Holds the NBA Finals record for highest single-series scoring average (41.0 ppg in 1993)
Entering the 2002-03 season, ranks as the all-time NBA Finals leader in three-pointers made (42), second in three-point attempts (114), third in points (1,176), fourth in steals (62), fifth in field-goals made (438), sixth in assists (209) and free-throws made (258), seventh in field-goals attempted (911) and eighth in free-throws attempted (320)
Holds the NBA Playoffs record for highest career scoring average (33.4 ppg)
Established an NBA Playoffs record with 63 points against the Boston Celtics on 5/20/86
Entering the 2002-03 season ranks as the all-time NBA Playoffs leader in field-goals attempted (4,497), free-throws made (1,463) and attempted (1,766), second in steals (376) and field-goals made (2,188), fifth in assists (1,022), seventh in three-point attempts (446) and ninth in three-pointers made (148)
Recorded two playoff career triple-doubles, both against the New York Knicks (5/9/89 and 6/2/93)
Participated in 13 NBA All-Star Games (1985, 1987-1993, 1996-98, 2002-03), starting 13 times, and missed another due to injury
Named the MVP of the 1988, 1996 and 1998 NBA All-Star Games
All-time NBA All-Star Game leader in steals (35) and ranks second in field-goal attempts (206), third in points (242), fourth in scoring average (20.2 ppg), and eighth in assists (52)
Notched the first triple-double in All-Star Game history, with 14 points, 11 rebounds and 11 assists, in the 1997 NBA All-Star Game in Cleveland
Won the Slam Dunk Contest in 1987 and 1988, also participating in 1985
Notched his 28th career triple-double, with 30 points, 11 rebounds and 10 assists, against the Toronto Raptors on 4/14/97
Returned from retirement against the Indiana Pacers on 3/19/95 and posted 19 points, six rebounds, six assists and three steals in 43 minutes


[Edited on May 22, 2006 at 1:46 PM. Reason : ^^^]

5/22/2006 1:41:42 PM

^^yeah no shit but what records does jordan even have

5/22/2006 1:42:00 PM

I'm ready to throw Kobe and Lebron on the same team and watch them win for the next 10 years straight.

Someone in this thread almost said that Lebron is double and triple teamed more than Kobe or has better offense than Kobe. Sorry but that is not true. 99% of us know who has better offense and that is Kobe. He makes more amazing and tougher shots.

We also know that Kobe is one of the top defenders in the game whereas Lebron isn't close.

So how exactly do you take Lebron over Kobe?

And how in the hell can you say Kobe has a better team?

5/22/2006 2:08:09 PM