Quote :

"I was speaking to the people who somehow believe immigrants and their families don't want to learn english"

i know some immigrants who dont want to learn english because they think its too hard and they would rather just work under the table for money...regardless of the fact that their kids will learn english simply from going to american schools...can you comprehend that

6/6/2006 10:56:26 PM

And how's that different from all the other immigrants we've had?

6/6/2006 10:57:49 PM

because with all the other immigrants, we didnt have to provide them with everything in their native languages...if they wanted to assimilate into our society, they would have to learn english...if they didnt, their kids would...they didnt have the opportunity to do everything government related in their own language, they became Americans and part of that was adapting to the English language

6/6/2006 11:00:59 PM

Quote :

"if they wanted to assimilate into our society, they would have to learn english...if they didnt, their kids would"

And the retarded notion that Hispanics are any different is what...

Quote :

"I was speaking to the people who somehow believe immigrants and their families don't want to learn english"

...was referring to.



When did you start trolling the Soap Box again? And what made you think you'd do any better this time?

6/6/2006 11:05:11 PM

^hispanics are NOT any different dumbass, the steps that America takes to dissuade them from becoming Americans by catering to their native culture is whats different...people used to come to America to be Americans...now plenty of them come to be Hispanics and make money to send back to their countries, while extorting some of our tax-funded programs...its not like theres a section similar to Chinatown or Little Italy where they can go and speak native languages and maintain their culture...its all over the place and its diluting the American culture...and dont come with any "we are the melting pot" rhetoric...we're the melting pot because people have different backgrounds and origins and they come together as Americans, they don't just live and work on the land while mentally remaining people of another country

and i apologize that you think i'm trolling...i know when someone doesnt share the same liberal views that you do you convince yourself they are just trolling because your opinion is the only right opinion in the whole world

6/6/2006 11:11:08 PM

Quote :

"its all over the place and its diluting the American culture"

lol

6/6/2006 11:15:22 PM

great content in that last post, you're really outdoing yourself

get out from behind your computer once in awhile into the real world and quit lying to yourself because you're trying to be politically correct

6/6/2006 11:17:27 PM

for all of you that support making English the official US language, how many other languages can you speak/read/write fluently?

6/6/2006 11:18:32 PM

I can definitely hold my own in Spanish, but not as well as I know English

but if I lived in Latin America I would have to learn better Spanish, because thats what they speak

I wouldn't expect them to change that just because some new people are moving in, that would be an absurd expectation

6/6/2006 11:19:51 PM

right, but you haven't lived in Latin America

I have

the attitude there is far less hostile when it comes to speaking different languages than in the US

in Mexico, most educated people are fluent in English AND Spanish (many also speak French and German too), and when Americans attempt to speak Spanish they are flattered and have an encouraging attitude.

in the US, people who don't even speak both languages are the FIRST to criticize and berrate non-native English speakers.

6/6/2006 11:27:05 PM

This is a solution looking for a problem.

6/6/2006 11:28:11 PM

^^in my travels i have experienced that most countries appreciate it when you try to speak the native language, as is the case in the US...i dont hate on people for having accents when they try to speak English...i just dont like the fact that or really have sympathy for the people who dont speak any English and expect to be able to get by

and i dont even care if people speak other languages...i just dont think the country should cater to it in the ways that they do

6/6/2006 11:30:28 PM

Im not for a second suggesting that immigrants who move to the US should be exempt from learning English

I just think it's bullshit to pretend that we don't live in a global society and that English is the only important language spoken in this country.

6/6/2006 11:34:34 PM

Quote :

"UJustWait84: in Mexico, most educated people are fluent in English AND Spanish (many also speak French and German too), and when Americans attempt to speak Spanish they are flattered and have an encouraging attitude."

haha reminds me of the old saying...

What do you call someone who speaks many languages? Multilingual.
Speaks two languages? Bilingual.
Speaks one language? American.

GO USA!

6/6/2006 11:36:54 PM

I probably shouldn't get into the fact that most Americans speak completely horrid English and have poor grammar and writing skills, and it's probably best to ignore the differences in dialect found in the various regions of the country...

But I tell you what, the second Americans become fluent in their own language, I will gladly accept it as our 'official language'

6/6/2006 11:43:41 PM

^ I agree

6/6/2006 11:49:09 PM

Nobody really gets their native language right as a whole.

Not even the french, their new "street slang" is fucking horrid, and because of PC loons it's being integrated into their culture. It also changes CONSTANTLY. Another reason I chose not to learn French.

6/7/2006 12:06:10 AM

French is a gay language anyway

this country would be in the shitter if people bothered to learn it fluently

6/7/2006 12:10:54 AM

Quote :

"I don't see what the big deal is about learning English."

Depends on what you mean. Making English the official language isn't on the same order as the Holocaust or anything, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable. So far, I haven't seen anyone describe any real, tangible benefit from it (or, honeslty, any justifiable intangible one), but I can see several disadvantages -- the cost, the potential for unrest, and the simple fact that letting the government tell people one more thing they have to do is bad.

Quote :

"theres a big difference in the need for multiple languages in the customs section of an international airport, and having multiple languages in all things day to day"

No doubt. Now show me where we have to deal with multiple languages in "all things day to day."

Then explain to me how this position is compatible with your brilliant "WHEN IN ROME" philosophy. Or did you mean, "When in Rome for a really, really long time, then do as the Romans do?"

Quote :

"whats up for debate about it"

Namely, the fact that most of them would pay taxes if you didn't make doing so an almost automatic ticket back to Mexico.

Quote :

"you think all immigrants want to learn english?"

No, I don't. I think the majority do. I also don't think you'll change things much by making English official.

Quote :

"i know some immigrants who dont want to learn english because they think its too hard and they would rather just work under the table for money"

This is the fault of people like you, who make working under the table preferable to working over it.

Quote :

"but if I lived in Latin America I would have to learn better Spanish, because thats what they speak "

How long would you have to live there before you really started boning up on your Spanish? A week? A month? A year? How long do you have to stay in a place before you really have to learn the language?

Quote :

"and i dont even care if people speak other languages...i just dont think the country should cater to it in the ways that they do"

And how is it that we're catering, again? By printing different versions of forms? By having translators? In other words, by doing the exact same shit that we'd have to do if English were official?

6/7/2006 4:25:06 AM

Haven't there already been like 5 threads in the Soap Box about this?

Quote :

"WHICH DO YOU THINK IS MORE EXPENSIVE PRINTING TWO FORMS OR TEACHING EVERY IMMIGRANT ENGLISH?"

Shhhhhh. If the government thinks that it will cost a lot of money to make English the official language they will be that much more inclined to do it.

Quote :

"I still don't see why learning English is such a big deal."

I still don't see why not learning English is such a big deal.

Quote :

"Furthermore, most immigrants who come to this country and refuse to learn English end up having children who invariably do learn English."

Yeah, isn't that the equation? A foreign family comes over to E.E.U.U. and the first generation doesn't speak that much English. Their children learn it and within 10 generations or so the family doesn't even remember what their native language was. I wouldn't go so far as to say that immigrants "refuse" to learn English. Learning a new language is difficult, especially the older you are, and I've heard that English is one of the more difficult languages to learn. Maybe they are trying but finding it difficult. Many that try very hard simply won't attain fluency.

Quote :

"I wouldn't expect them to change that just because some new people are moving in, that would be an absurd expectation"

If a huge influx of people that spoke English moved to a Latin American country you really wouldn't have to expect it. The government would probably accommodate you. Put yourself in their shoes. If you did move to this fictitious Latin American country where there was a good percentage of the populace that spoke English and they even had large cities/communities where English is spoken how willing would you be to learn Spanish? Keep in mind you are in a city/community where English speakers are the majority. How would you feel if the government all of a sudden said "Nope, Spanish is the official language now, learn it. Just ignore everyone in your community that speaks English."

[Edited on June 7, 2006 at 7:56 AM. Reason : -]

6/7/2006 7:53:11 AM

Quote :

"Then explain to me how this position is compatible with your brilliant "WHEN IN ROME" philosophy. Or did you mean, "When in Rome for a really, really long time, then do as the Romans do?""

ok how about this..."If you move to Rome, you better learn Italian"

Quote :

"This is the fault of people like you, who make working under the table preferable to working over it."

People like me, huh...whatever you say man

Quote :

"If you did move to this fictitious Latin American country where there was a good percentage of the populace that spoke English and they even had large cities/communities where English is spoken how willing would you be to learn Spanish? Keep in mind you are in a city/community where English speakers are the majority. How would you feel if the government all of a sudden said "Nope, Spanish is the official language now, learn it. Just ignore everyone in your community that speaks English.""

Keep in mind I'm in a city/community where English speakers are the majority? In what U.S. cities are Spanish speakers the majority? And in regards to your question of how willing would I be to learn Spanish...if I move to a Spanish speaking country in Latin America, I will be willing to learn Spanish...I wouldnt expect their government to spoon feed me and make special arrangements...they wouldnt change their culture just because of a migration of foreigners...and nobody is telling immigrants "ignore everyone in your community that speaks Spanish"...but what they need to try and teach them is "learn the native language of the country you moved to to live and work in"

6/7/2006 9:32:13 AM

Quote :

"In what U.S. cities are Spanish speakers the majority?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_Hispanic_majority_populations

What makes a culture anyway? The traditions of the past or the current living and breathing world that surrounds us. If there is a huge influx of immigrants, culture in that region is going to change whether you make a language official or not.

I'm just saying that it is nice to learn the language of the country you are living in but it shouldn't be required. Heck, I lived in Latin America for 2 years, learned the language, and still feel that way.

6/7/2006 9:42:08 AM

well the link you posted doesnt exactly mention languages spoken as much as it just categorizes ethnicity

i just think people want too much...i dont expect to go to another country without being able to get by in their language or making some kind of arrangements prior

am i saying that you shouldnt even visit a country just because you dont speak the native language? you might want to consider that

6/7/2006 9:47:32 AM

immigrants came from italy and learned english
immigrants came from germany and learned english
immigrants came from greece and learned english
immigrants came from russia and learned english
immigrants came from poland and learned english
immigrants came from china and learned english
immigrants came from vietnam and learned english
what makes mexicans different?

the government doesn't print stuff in italian, german, greek, russian, polish, chinese, vietnamese
why should we treat mexicans better than people who came here legally?

6/7/2006 9:54:24 AM

^^That's a technicality. I guess I could look up language but I don't feel like looking right now. Suffice to say you'll probably hear a lot of Spanish in a city with a 98% Hispanic population. I spent some time in Miami and didn't hear English once.

BTW. What is really going on? Are the immigrants arriving and making outlandish demands that the government accommodate them and their language or is the government just stepping up to the plate and making accommodations for them?

[Edited on June 7, 2006 at 9:55 AM. Reason : -]

6/7/2006 9:54:52 AM

tilley, i see your side of the story, believe me i do...i just dont agree with it...I think 1's post right ^^there gives a good example...why dont we put things in German, Chinese, etc? What makes the Mexicans different?

and i think the government has been stepping up the plate and making arrangements...not as strongly as they did 5-10 years ago during the political correctness boom, which is another story

6/7/2006 10:01:22 AM

Principally because Spanish speakers comprise about 10% of the U.S. population and all other languages are less than 1% (each, not collectively).

Keep this in mind. I know several 1st generation immigrant families. A lot of the parents do not speak English but their children sure do. In 2 or 3 generations those families probably won't know any Spanish.

Quote :

"immigrants came from italy and learned english immigrants came from germany and learned english immigrants came from greece and learned english immigrants came from russia and learned english immigrants came from poland and learned english immigrants came from china and learned english immigrants came from vietnam and learned english what makes mexicans different? "

Yes, you see this phenomena principally because all the Italians, Germans, Russians, etc. came over on a boat 200 years ago. They've had several generations to learn English. It just appears as though the latino community is not learning the language because we are currently experiencing a time when they are the majority of the immigrants. They are all new here. It will probably take a few generations for the people that are already hear to learn English, and that doesn't even include the people that continue to pour over the border. I'm sure the mexican families that came across the border 200 years ago have picked up English.

It will probably always appear as if no progress is being made because mexicans are coming over in droves. The number of Spanish speaking immigrants coming over each year (for all I know) could be greater than the number of people that are already here that are learning English while going through the generational transition. Sometimes it just takes a generation to learn a new language. Couple that with the cities and communities that have a large hispanic populace and the process slows down that much more.

[Edited on June 7, 2006 at 10:21 AM. Reason : -]

6/7/2006 10:18:55 AM

Quote :

"Yes, you see this phenomena principally because all the Italians, Germans, Russians, etc. came over on a boat 200 years ago. They've had several generations to learn English. It just appears as though the latino community is not learning the language "

but that doesnt change that accomodations being made for latinos, the accomodations that those other ethnic groups did not get

6/7/2006 11:25:31 AM

I'd say we are in a better position to accommodate immigrants today than we were 200 years ago. If we can, then why not?

6/7/2006 11:27:49 AM

i agree that we're a more advanced society that has more means to accomodate

i just dont think some of the types of accomodations our government is making are the right decisions to make and steps to take

lets ask the question...what do we want from immigrants? i would say for them to migrate to America legally, learn the necessary things any other immigrant should learn in the naturalization process, from some basic laws, to different facts about how the country works, to learning English...I mean the legitimate legal immigrants who come to this country have to take their citizenship tests in English if I'm not mistaken...in order to become American citizens, they have to prove some things...those are the people that want to become Americans...whereas conversely you have some people that dont take any steps to become a citizen...they dont learn English because there are places they can get by without it...they dont pay taxes (deductive reasoning if they are not citizens, they are not on record, etc)...and sure they might get paid less than you and me, but they are the ones that came to this country on their own...I have sympathy for their quality of living but I have a shitload more sympathy for the immigrants who come into this country legally and one of the things they have to do is learn English

6/7/2006 11:36:19 AM

http://rightmindedelephant.blogspot.com/2006/06/should-english-be-official-language_05.html

Link to political blog on the issue which has an excellent article on the topic.

6/7/2006 11:45:24 AM

I'm curious as to what accomodations are being made. I know that Belgium has schools that are entirely for English speaking students. Are we talking about that sort of thing?

6/7/2006 11:52:52 AM

ESL classes are the major accomadation for their children.

They are major in more than just accomadating too. They are one of the major reasons that education costs have risen so much in the past 20 years.

If you've ever worked in retail then you understand the trouble and division that exists because of english not being an official language.

6/7/2006 12:18:54 PM

it shouldn't be the official language, but I hate doing this:

6/7/2006 12:32:42 PM

Is this what everyone is afraid of?

6/7/2006 1:04:15 PM

I remember when making phone calls to American corporations in America was all in English

6/7/2006 1:11:05 PM

I find it somewhat hilarious that, in your post about English as the national language, you have somewhere around 20 instances of improper punctuation, spelling, or usage.

6/7/2006 1:12:51 PM

Quote :

"1: the government doesn't print stuff in italian, german, greek, russian, polish, chinese, vietnamese"

you're at least right on 5 out of 7...

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=413380&page=1#8864316

Quote :

"TGD: English, Spanish, Chinese, Tagalog, Vietnamese and Korean"

6/7/2006 1:25:14 PM

^are you implying that there are just as many things printed by the us government in tagalog, chinese, korean and vietnamese as there are in spanish? cause thats just false

^^what did i misspell? are you going to berate me for using all lowercase letters and using ellipses instead of punctuation?

6/7/2006 1:28:50 PM

My comment was directed at the thread's original poster.

6/7/2006 1:34:29 PM

Interesting. Aside from having some difficulties with spelling the different variations of the word 'accomodate', I don't see where Biggie has even hardly posted 20 words in this thread, let alone typos.

6/7/2006 1:37:53 PM

^I do see quite a few. But spookyjon and I might disagree on the "rules," and I suspect some of his objections are prescriptive.

Here, for example:

Quote :

"Biggie: Everyone does not already learn English. Especially illegal immigrants and other legal immigrants."

He should have used a comma instead of a period there, and "Especially" should not be capitalized.

However, I often use periods inappropriately to express long pauses and place emphasis on certain words over other words. It's fun!

Quote :

"Biggie: Would the resentment among the non-English crowd out weigh the decline of resentment present today in the English speaking crowd?"

English-speaking, outweigh (outweigh actually shouldn't even be used here)

That whole sentence is screwy.

Quote :

"Biggie: Comments on whether english should be the official language..."

whether what?

[Edited on June 7, 2006 at 1:52 PM. Reason : sss]

6/7/2006 1:43:49 PM

Quote :

"TreeTwista10: ^are you implying that there are just as many things printed by the us government in tagalog, chinese, korean and vietnamese as there are in spanish? cause thats just false"

[no], I'm saying point-blank that the government prints things in other languages beyond Spanish, in response to 1's post...

It's called "context" my friend

6/7/2006 1:49:54 PM

Well I for one don't really give a shit about this country, its heritage, history, or culture. So what do I care if English is the official language or not?

6/7/2006 1:58:47 PM

Quote :

"TKE-Teg: Well I for one don't really give a shit about this country, its heritage, history, or culture. So what do I care if English is the official language or not?"

Oh, you poor stupid fuck...

Our heritage, history, and culture are three beautiful reasons why we shouldn't make English the official language.

6/7/2006 2:03:18 PM

Gah. I was referring to his actual blog post on the subject, not his posts in the thread. Clearly I have problems of my own.

6/7/2006 2:04:23 PM

Quote :

"Comments on whether english should be the official language..." "

Quote :

"whether what?"

see thats just nitpicking...obviously comments on whether english should be the official language, or not

6/7/2006 2:15:47 PM

^I was definitely reaching.

Lowjack was right. My response kicks ass...

Quote :

"We don't need to make English the official language because there is already an incentive for immigrants to learn English--it's called employment. If someone is able to find a job where he does not need to learn English, good for him; I'm sure he'll encounter other inconveniences as a result of his unwillingness to learn English, and I imagine that is just the price he'll have to pay. Yes, government documents are available in multiple languages but let's be real: many native English speakers aren't quite sure what those documents say...so yeah, I say make the translations available if not for non-speakers then for new speakers who aren't the surest with the language yet. Furthermore, most immigrants who come to this country and refuse to learn English end up having children who invariably do learn English. Let's not pretend that there are armies of immigrants, setting up communities where generations of people refuse to learn English and demand that we accomodate them."

(Like, I summed it up. There really isn't much else to discuss. I win!)

[Edited on June 7, 2006 at 2:36 PM. Reason : sss]

6/7/2006 2:34:22 PM

yeah, om, no

6/7/2006 2:37:34 PM

Then argue with me. Let's do this.

6/7/2006 2:42:11 PM