I think we should do what the US Army Psy Ops has been doing in Afghanistan for the last 6 months.

They air dropped food and water into remote taliban/al qaida held locations, knowing that it will fall into enemy hands. The food was America (hotdogs, pizza, barbeque) and it was also laced with biodegradable tracking devices so the local forces could have more intel on where the people are hiding.

I wonder how long it will take for haji to realize that every time the U.S. feeds him, he gets attacked.

9/18/2006 3:25:12 PM

^ I hope that doesn't get you in trouble.

I mean that.

Quote :

"You seem long on rejecting courses of action, not so much on suggesting them."

In a capitalist market of ideas, GrumpyGOP, I don't have to suggest them. I just have to be capable of discerning bullshit when I see it. I don't know how to design a house, either. But I don't go around planning to build one. I'll ask an architect a bunch of questions, though.

Edison invented over 10,000 light bulbs that didn't work before he found one that did. Perhaps we ought to allow inventive genius like that a shot at trying to figure out how to end the bigger, more wide-ranging, farther reaching problems of the world.

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 3:33 PM. Reason : ...]

9/18/2006 3:31:22 PM

Edison actually invented those lightbulbs; you're just telling him that they won't work.

Criticizing is essential, but it isn't enough.

And I bet you'd have suggestions or requests for your architect (if it were your house, anyway).

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 3:34 PM. Reason : ]

9/18/2006 3:33:44 PM

Quote :

"^ I hope that doesn't get you in trouble. I mean that."

its not classified

9/18/2006 3:39:05 PM

what are the chances though that radical muslims will eat hot dogs? are they non-pork?

9/18/2006 3:40:20 PM

haha, turkey i guess. What people don't really know/understand is that the muslims in the U.S.A are not like the ones in the middle east.

Here, they worship at mosque alot so you see them worship at the mosque. Also, muslims are a severe minority here and the mosque is where they go to hangout, learn, eat, have community.

In Iraq, nobody prays 5 times a day. Nobody cares except for when the CNN cameras are on. They're just as sick and twisted as any American I've ever encountered. Saudi Arabia, Oman and U.A.E. are as materialistic and immoral as any Western country has ever been. Give anybody from any ethnicity alot of money and they quickly lose things like "values" or "religion"

And many arabs eat pork/not all are as muslim as they appear

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 3:47 PM. Reason : .]

9/18/2006 3:46:06 PM

^^ That doesn't mean those lightbulbs were any less effective at producing light.

He didn't need me to tell him they didn't work, but if I'd been there, I'd have been as good a judge as Edison was that they weren't performing correctly. Why? Because at the end of the day, the damned things didn't produce light.

I would have suggestions for an architect, especially if he were going to be building my house. The problems we're discussing can't be changed fast enough to be part of my "house" or "historical experience of Earth," however, instead of bickering over what isn't the problem, I'm trying to find out what is.

I'm rationally avoiding the temptation to speculate on how to fix a problem I don't think enough people understand. If I felt I understood it well enough to speculate on how to fix it, I would. In general terms, people need to think of each other, governments, corporations, religions, etc. all as as channelers of information--all of whom have some accurate information, and some inaccurate information. I think most people understand this on some level, but don't internalize it very well. If I thought so, I'd feel a little more free to speculate beyond that.

Objective self-awareness isn't something humanity has shown the capacity to react favorably to.

Instead, I'm just going to ask people questions. If you're unhappy that I find questions more preferable to answers, I'd say you need to work that struggle out for yourself. I already have, and I don't require validation for it. I find uncertainty a far more honest perspective than certainty when viewed through a synthesis of accurate historical, scientific, logical, and philosophical viewpoints. My questions tend to focus on analysis of perceptions born out of the accuracy of people's beliefs from those perspectives.

Solutions don't come about from people with answers. They come about from people who fail to stop asking questions until they arrive at accurate, or more accurate answers.

9/18/2006 3:50:08 PM

architects dont build buildings

9/18/2006 3:52:00 PM

I'd ask him even more questions if he were simply designing my house, and weren't building it.

9/18/2006 3:59:51 PM

man, i went out of the office for an hour, came back and now this thread is over my head.

9/18/2006 4:29:14 PM

My post was to GrumpyGOP. Didn't get back to it in time to fix the ^'s.

9/18/2006 4:32:00 PM

i know, i was just lost on the whole lightbulb talk.

9/18/2006 4:34:36 PM

He was saying that since I'm not answering questions about how to get people to stop hating or killing one another, that I'm worth being suspicious of. At least, my intentions are. I don't really have any intentions except to get people to ask themselves more questions about their own assumptions, and the assumptions of other people. But it's fun to watch people strain their intellects to "prove" otherwise...

Your thread makes sense to me. Those Muslims who blow up Christian churches in the Middle East are every bit the dumbshits who attacked Islamic Mosques after 9/11. That's what it looks like to me. It's a shame this kind of thing takes place.

Why does it happen?

9/18/2006 4:48:35 PM

I don't know why it is happening. Nobody on Earth really knows. I just know that everything that is happening right now has already been mentioned in the Bible.

Deep down, I believe that the underlying reason why so many muslims are like this is because of a lack of peace of mind/security in their theology. Their actions against Westerners, Jews and Christians unveil some kind of fear/inferiority complex that comes with their religion. It seems as if they are searching to fill a void that can't be filled. I find this contradictory to their claims that Islam is a religion of peace.

If they really believed that their god was almighty and will one day come and take over earth, then why do they feel that they have to do their god's work? Does their god need their help? If he were real, then I wouldn't think so.

9/18/2006 7:04:40 PM

I really wish the moderates in Muslim society will stand up and overthrow these toolbags... these idiots are going to lead themselves and everyone else over there to an extermination of the society and all that will be left is those that aren't in the ME and history

9/18/2006 7:08:42 PM

^^ good point

9/18/2006 8:11:46 PM

Actually the crusades are a bit more complicated then a church, but nice try.

I'm actually getting tired of everyone in the world getting pissy whenever someone says something that they think is insulting. It happens here, Europe, the middle east, china etc and the shit needs to stop.

9/18/2006 10:09:32 PM

i like how the muslims are upset with the pope's speech particularly the part where he talks about the use of violence by Mohammed and ironically they show there protest by blowing up churches and killing people.

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 10:11 PM. Reason : l]

9/18/2006 10:11:14 PM

christians did the same thing throughout history and do it now when they bomb abortion clinics and shit

i just really wish christians would stop pointing the finger at muslims. you both do the same fucking thing. LOOK at history

9/18/2006 10:21:35 PM

^you are an idiot...

then...and now...

a few abortion clinics??...or constant killings and beheadings of innocents

get your head out of your ass

9/18/2006 10:24:17 PM

A couple of random guys blowing up abortion clinics is in no way comparable protests, riots, and violence that involves thousands of people and spans multiple countries.

Regardless, what may or may not have been done in the name of Christianity in no way validates what's happening today. Stop trying to make it sound like Muslims are somehow justified in what they do.

9/18/2006 10:26:25 PM

Abortion clinic bombers would be legit radicals...

The aggression and violent tendencies you see in the Muslim world today constitute a movement.

9/18/2006 10:56:22 PM

christians terrorists attack ireland again today

9/18/2006 10:57:14 PM

Seriously? I saw nothing on BBC or anywhere else about it.

9/18/2006 11:05:34 PM

sorry, just look at any other day

9/18/2006 11:20:33 PM

I'm a little bit behind the enlightened curve with some of this stuff, is the radical islam typically coming form poorer segments of the Arab population or is it a mix?

I realize Osama is(was?) wealthy, but do we have it nailed down yet as to the type of individual that gets caught up in this movement? Are very many wealthy/well off Arab's shirking their plush lifestyles for this movement?

9/18/2006 11:26:52 PM

Josh8315, why are you making shit up? There is very little terrorist activity in the UK... muslim terrorist activity is actually more prevalent in the UK than anything going on with Ireland. The IRA hasn't been a serious factor in over a decade.

9/18/2006 11:30:44 PM

so therefor christianity is a peaceful religion becuase it all stopped 10 years ago?

how come you dont call the IRA christian terrorists whenever they are in the news?

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 11:32 PM. Reason : 324]

9/18/2006 11:32:06 PM

Is the IRA killing in the name of Christianity, or do they just happen to be Christians that kill?

9/18/2006 11:41:57 PM

we couldnt defeat vietnam and now we cant beat islam!

9/18/2006 11:43:07 PM

^^ they kill in the name of God

9/18/2006 11:46:11 PM

Large chunks of Gamecat's post strike me as reasonable, but not the conclusions he draws.

Also, I think the lightbulb and architect analogies were poor choices, given what you have just said in regards to them.

Quote :

"I find uncertainty a far more honest perspective than certainty when viewed through a synthesis of accurate historical, scientific, logical, and philosophical viewpoints."

I'm not suggesting we rush for or even expect to obtain certainty, nor that we abandon a critical and questioning attitude. But people do need to suggest answers based on what they have. When someone starts seeing uncertainty as a positive, they become chronically indecisive. Indecisiveness is fine in philosophy class. It is less so when attempting to formulate and implement policies.

Quote :

"Solutions don't come about from people with answers. They come about from people who fail to stop asking questions until they arrive at accurate, or more accurate answers."

No. Questioning picks a solution out of a mass of them after they have been generated by people who try to come up with ideas.

Quote :

"Those Muslims who blow up Christian churches in the Middle East are every bit the dumbshits who attacked Islamic Mosques after 9/11."

While this is basically true, I can't help but think you have an ulterior motive for bringing it up, especially when we start comparing the severity of the reacion.

9/19/2006 12:10:13 AM

Quote :

"Regardless, what may or may not have been done in the name of Christianity in no way validates what's happening today. Stop trying to make it sound like Muslims are somehow justified in what they do."

i wasn't saying that it validates anything. nothing on either side validates any of the violence. that's my entire goddamn point.

and just to give you fuckers a wakeup call

Religious Conflicts In The Last 15 Years

Palestine - Jews v. Muslims

Balkans - Orthodox Serbians v. Catholic Croations
Orthodox Serbians v. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims

Northern Ireland - Protestants v. Catholics

Kashmir - Muslims v. Hindus

Sudan - Muslims v. Christians

Nigeria - Muslims v. Christians

Ethiopia - Muslims v. Christians

Eritrea - Muslims v. Christians

Sri Lanka - Sinhalese Buddhists v. Tamil Hindus

Indonesia - Muslims v. Tiimorese Christians

Caucasus - Orthodox Russians v. Chechen Muslims
Muslim Azerbaijanis v. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians

Christianity preaches just as much hate and intolerance as Islam. You can selectively read the bible all you want.

"7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage."
-Deuteronomy 13:7-11 (King James Version)



[Edited on September 19, 2006 at 12:16 AM. Reason : jank]

9/19/2006 12:10:13 AM

The Armenians aren't Orthodox.

9/19/2006 12:12:52 AM

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP: Large chunks of Gamecat's post strike me as reasonable, but not the conclusions he draws."

It's interesting watching us strip away the ideological onion that divides us.

Usually, I'm finding, it's based on a lack of understanding how much we believe another person actually believes another (John Kerry, George W. Bush, Hitler, the Pope, their Parents, God) than any actual encounters people allow themselves to have with philosophically sound definitions of reality.

Frankly, I think it's the illusion of drawing conclusion that divides most people. Stop me when you hear something unreasonable.

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP: Also, I think the lightbulb and architect analogies were poor choices, given what you have just said in regards to them."

I'd love to hear an honest and logically-founded attack on their use to illustrate my point. If they're so obvious, logical scrutiny shouldn't be such a bad thing.

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP: I'm not suggesting we rush for or even expect to obtain certainty, nor that we abandon a critical and questioning attitude. But people do need to suggest answers based on what they have."

Why? Because otherwise you feel uncomfortable with them? Or some stereotypically contrived outgrowth thereof? Seems like you've got an internal matter over the conflict between your worldview and the sound, philosophically-based worldviews of others.

Why do we "need" to suggest answers? Is that similar to our "need" to create warfare?

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP: When someone starts seeing uncertainty as a positive, they become chronically indecisive. Indecisiveness is fine in philosophy class. It is less so when attempting to formulate and implement policies."

Based purely upon your ability to assert truth and have people believe it. Indecisiveness isn't a positive. Neither is uncertainty. Quite the reverse, I'd even speculate. I'm amazed that in recent days you've been avoiding arguing about the topic.

It seems that you have difficulty understanding something about people who form conclusions like mine. Sometimes some of us have and keep jobs. Good ones. Salaried ones. Jobs we even created for ourselves. We didn't major in philosophy. Or even the dreaded "liberal arts." But enjoy them, nonetheless. We can even interact with a litany of psychologically healthy individuals of varying philosophical viewpoints. Just like people in other countries.

What exactly makes our speculations confirming the amount of speculation, and anecdote, present in our society?

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP: No. Questioning picks a solution out of a mass of them after they have been generated by people who try to come up with ideas."

Right. And what separates an Edison from a Hitler is his ability to look for, and find constructions that work and are repeatable, scalable, and sustainable. Any industriust has to know at least that much. So did both men, just on varying levels.

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP: While this is basically true, I can't help but think you have an ulterior motive for bringing it up, especially when we start comparing the severity of the reacion."

The problem I'm getting at is why you can't help but think I've got any reason for pointing it out except my own philosophical musings on a message board. Let's drop the shit for a second. What's wrong with questioning violence, GrumpyGOP?

I mean, if you don't think it could simply be that, what does the psychological phenomena known as "the invisible audience" think it is?

9/19/2006 12:30:00 AM

I think Islam is in need of reform.

9/19/2006 12:47:41 AM

religion is in need of reform

9/19/2006 12:52:38 AM

Thats a bit broad. Not all religions are intolerant.

9/19/2006 12:57:02 AM

well the majority of my motivation for that comment is based on the fact that i think religion is pointless and unnecessary to life (should be obvious i'm atheist lol)

the reform i speak of is simply casting it out of our daily lives

9/19/2006 12:59:05 AM

And replace it with what? An overwhelming sense of self?

I think when death (hopefully not anytime soon) looms on your horizon, you're going to feel slightly differently.

9/19/2006 1:03:08 AM

To clarify a question for Grumpy:

Quote :

"What exactly makes our speculations confirming the amount of speculation, and anecdote, present in our society any more inherently dangerous than the others sanctioned by institution?"

9/19/2006 1:07:07 AM

Quote :

"I think when death (hopefully not anytime soon) looms on your horizon, you're going to feel slightly differently"

i'm not sure why everyone says that, maybe because that's how it's portrayed in movies and television, i don't know

i am atheist. it's not a religion, it's a lack of belief. i do not believe. so short of witnessing something myself, i'm not going to suddenly believe, even on my death bed. why is that so hard for religious people to believe?

[Edited on September 19, 2006 at 1:18 AM. Reason : lack of spelling also]

9/19/2006 1:11:58 AM

More importantly...

Why do you need a philosophically simple answer to justify your belief that murdering each other over ideological divides is fundamentally not a sustainable, repeatable, and scalable way to run a given society?

Are people afraid of peaceful speculation by others who don't care about or buy into mythologies for whatever reasons?

9/19/2006 1:14:29 AM

there's no such thing as peaceful speculation

9/19/2006 1:18:04 AM

Says who? And why?

9/19/2006 1:24:14 AM

ok

all i know is tomorrow bush is giving a speech and then the iranian dude is like 2 hours later

man i wish some shit would go down

9/19/2006 1:25:40 AM

Tit-for-tat ideological extremism being peddled at one another by the sabre rattlings of two powerful civilizations. Unfortunately, they're both in power. For dumb reasons of varying complexity, but nonetheless, dumb in some ways. Vote like intelligent people, America. Act like intelligent people, Iran. Don't let extremism happen to you.

[Edited on September 19, 2006 at 1:29 AM. Reason : ...]

9/19/2006 1:29:12 AM

i'm beginning to think its inevitable

9/19/2006 1:30:46 AM

That's somebody's fault. I'd love for Soap Box's arbiters of truth try and tell you who's.

9/19/2006 1:32:02 AM

i'm not exactly sure if our foreign policy in that region was the right course of action

like for the past 30+ years

if i had to blame anything, i'd blame that

9/19/2006 1:34:45 AM