welli cant rightfully say who started the fires, no one admits to it, so i cant say which i believe without further proof.

but at least we can admit it was a big learning experience for the FBI and CIA with standoffs and mistakes were made on both parts.

9/18/2006 6:48:53 PM

e30ncsu... read up on ruby ridge and what the FBI and ATF did to a family that didn't want to pay taxes

so much for the boston tea party huh

anyways, no one is denying that koresh is a nutjob... but the government is denying plenty

here is another reason I don't trust the government
http://www.gunowners.org/abcnews.mpg

mms://a568.v129484.c12948.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/568/12948/v0001/vod.ibsys.com/2005/0908/4946889.300k.wmv

and another reason why I don't trust the government

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/



[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 6:56 PM. Reason : .]

9/18/2006 6:53:02 PM

i remember watching that place burn down while in Circuit City

it was on errry TV in that place

when was that, 93?? 92?

9/18/2006 7:03:07 PM

f250, you realize you have posted that like 15 times already. stop relying on some linked video like salisbuyrboy

and i know about ruby ridge



these arent no-knock raids, these are cases where agents identify themselves. you make your stand in court, not with guns.

9/18/2006 7:06:20 PM

I post it repeatedly because american citizens should be outraged that law enforcement is going door to door kicking people out of their homes, disarming them, and sending them to "shelters"

if you know about Ruby Ridge, once again... why are you not outraged at our government and their actions againsts it's own citizens... everyone bitches and moans if we fart on a Taliban prisoner but yet says nothing when government kills it's own citizens because they didn't tow the line.


Koresh offered to let the ATF come in and check his guns out... they refused

do you really think the government wanted anything concerning that case in a courtroom?

9/18/2006 7:14:24 PM

haha thats the same reason salisburyboy gives

and the investigations are just as public as court, but now you are expanding the consipracy to include the judicial system. but i get it, all government is bad... all cops and agents are bad

guys who brainwash their followers and family are good because they are just fighting the man



maybe if you post another cato institute link it will show everyone how the agents murdered those children

9/18/2006 7:25:04 PM

yeah.. beleive everything they say because they care about us?

do you question anything we do in Iraq?

I'm not salisbury boy or a cloneor even really a fan of conspiracy theories... I am an angry citizen that believes this country does shady shit... no matter who is in office

I never said Koresh was good... I think he is a nutjob and crazy, but I don't think he was nearly as bad as they portrayed him to be.

read some stuff on the cato link I posted

a man is on death row now because he shot a cop when they raided his home unannounced while he was trying to cover his kid up... it was the wrong house

I bet nobody lied in that testimony either

I don't have a problem with cops... my dad is one

I do have a problem with beauracrats sending innocent people to their deaths at the hands of the common law man thats just doing his job... and in some cases those lawmen get killed(like at Waco)

there was no need for ANY of those people to have died, cops or followers


our government is no longer based upon the principals that our founding fathers set forth

9/18/2006 7:32:46 PM

but see you use this as a forum to highlight various problems with cops, when this was just a single event not connected to any of those

koresh set those kids on fire but you are more upset about politicians who wanted to arrest him

Quote :

"there was no need for ANY of those people to have died, cops or followers"

right, if koresh has just given himself up

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 7:38 PM. Reason : .]

9/18/2006 7:36:26 PM

I used that as an example that the goverment doesn't care when they are out to get someone


as for koresh, I'm pissed that lots of people died and got shot on both sides of the compound that didn't have to die

the nutjob followers and the law officers that had families that were just doing what they were told to do

if I was an ATF agent, I would have quit before I took part in that... if you want to shoot weapons and people like that join the military and do it overseas don't do it on our citizens... no matter if they think they are jesus or not


they could have stopped him without any of the paramilitary bullshit they did

but they didn't care about that... they wanted shock and awe

I don't know who set who on fire... and neither do you
I do know that it was unnecessary though

THEY COULD HAVE PICKED HIM UP IN TOWN MULTIPLE TIMES
he didn't stay home, he went to the store, went to gun shows etc etc

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 7:42 PM. Reason : ...]

9/18/2006 7:41:16 PM

well i know that accelerants were used
and i know that would be pretty hard to pull of when you cant get in the building

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 7:42 PM. Reason : after the warrant was issued he stayed home]

9/18/2006 7:42:12 PM

yeah... accelerants were used... they were pumping the building full of them

it was reported on multiple shows about him that they could have picked him up in town multiple times but they chose to do it at his house

they had followed dude around forever

he even offered the ATF the opportunity to come in and view his place and they refused

9/18/2006 7:45:49 PM

they didnt pump accelerants into the building

if he was really willing to let them inspect the place he would have when they came

9/18/2006 7:47:50 PM

I don't think they were stopping by that time to say hello and take a look at the place


you act like an army, you get treated like an army

you don't show up in blackhawks with mil-spec equipment because you want to arrest someone

this is the point where well... he and the rest of his crew did what alot of people would have done

he should have been smart and made sure he had news reporters listening to him from the beginning though

I take it you didn't read the article at all


people fucked up on all sides and caused the loss of life which was unnecessary

we may disagree right here... but if they show up at my door looking to take my personal property... the same thing will happen.. oh well, thats what I beleive and people aren't taking for me what I've worked to have



[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 7:54 PM. Reason : .]

9/18/2006 7:51:53 PM

i read the article, ive also read books and other articles on this topic


and youre retarded if you are going to standoff against a show of force. just go with them and have your day in court you fucking redneck

9/18/2006 7:56:05 PM

heres where u messed up encsu

Quote :

"these arent no knock raids. these are cases where agents identify themselves. you make your stand in court, not with guns."

[quote]

thats just the thing, in Waco, they didnt knock AT ALL. they were going to use the element of surprise to take this guy down, it wouldnt have even been a showdown then, it would have been a one day war it seems against an innocent group. the had Blackhawks flown in and they took the swat team out in cattle trailers unnannounced, if it wasnt for Koresh's brother they would have had a one day war shock and awe style.

I want you to find the report where it says they used accelerants on themselves please because I have never heard of that part of it. And please post the the things you have 'read' up on to support your claim.

and please, if u could make a complete thesis as to what happened that day and why it happened.

9/18/2006 9:14:00 PM

ive actaully already posted something that mentions accelerants

but here
http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacothirteen.html

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 9:25 PM. Reason : .]

9/18/2006 9:24:22 PM

thesis plz

9/18/2006 9:41:39 PM

i can copy and paste a previous post if your browser doesnt have a scroll bar and a back button

would that help?

9/18/2006 9:44:02 PM

yes

9/18/2006 9:45:12 PM

Quote :

"of course i think mistakes were made, but the fbi agents did not murder those children branch dividians started those fires, and koresh wouldnt let anyone leave"

Quote :

"they died from the fire and their clothes had accelerants on them. he wanted a standof, he wanted people to die so that his prophecies would become true. its called self-actualizing prophecy david koresh could have saved all of those lives, but instead killed them"

9/18/2006 9:47:01 PM

I'd say your definitions of the word "accelerant" might be a point where you're disagreeing.

9/19/2006 12:40:22 AM

i agree

just got a call from waco though, freaked me out

9/19/2006 1:11:15 AM

Oh come on. Nothing to be afraid of. I'm sure you've got friends in Waco or something.

9/19/2006 1:12:23 AM

no, it was some chick that said she bought my phone, i was like uhmm ive never sold a phone, and stated that somehow my number was her voicemail number she had to dial

i was oh, well u dont have any messages at the moment, bye.

9/19/2006 1:35:31 AM

Weird shit. Be careful what you believe about it. You could scare yourself or somebody else unnecessarily.

9/19/2006 1:38:03 AM

it scared the heck outta me when i googled the area code, i was like noooo way.
seems to be safe now, if she calls back again im gonna be like HELL NO I WONT BECOME A DAVIDIAN!

9/19/2006 1:41:36 AM

IOW

NO KITTY KITTY THAT'S A BAD KITTY KITTY

9/19/2006 1:42:18 AM

Quote :

"but if they show up at my door looking to take my personal property... the same thing will happen.. oh well, thats what I beleive and people aren't taking for me what I've worked to have"

Dear God. I hope you are not insinuating what I think you are. If the New World Order comes, thats one thing. If the cops come to confiscate guns.... well, better not shoot back.

Randy Weaver et al, they all should have known better.


[Edited on September 19, 2006 at 2:35 AM. Reason : too much]

9/19/2006 2:27:41 AM

I see what you're saying and chances are that... no I wouldn't shoot, but I would get the issue on ALL the media outlets so if they crossed the line and my rights were violated, everyone would know it

9/19/2006 8:35:56 AM

Quote :

"I'd say your definitions of the word "accelerant" might be a point where you're disagreeing."

im talking about the gasoline, kerosene, lighter fluid, and camp stove fuel that was found on the clothing of multiple dividians and in the 3 places were the fires simultaneously started

im not talking about the carbon dioxide propellent that was used to deliver the tear gas from the combat vehicle (which would have hindered fire, not accelerated it) nor am I talking about the methylene chloride which was the nonburning and nonexploding carrier in the 40mm ferret cartridge

but if you are saying the arson investigation has been falsified well then you have now expanded the conspiracy theory to include the Alleghany County Fire Department from Pennsylvania, the Houston Fire Department, the LA fire department, the San Francisco fire department, a chemical accelerant detection dog, and the FBI

[Edited on September 19, 2006 at 9:05 AM. Reason : .]

9/19/2006 9:02:21 AM

I haven't expanded anything, frankly. I've just pointed out the intellectual territory where it appears competing conspiracy theories (David Koresh vs. The FBI) seem to diverge.

9/19/2006 11:42:58 AM