I can't figure the reasoning for them not letting him talk to her


maybe she didn't even want to speak to him

10/31/2006 9:15:27 AM

Quote :

"And it seemed to me that the dominant mentality was "Let me talk to my gf and I'll give up.""

basically

he had a fuckin flip flop for christ sakes

if it was a gun and he wanted to pop off he wouldve a long time ago

10/31/2006 11:09:55 AM

Quote :

"he had a fuckin flip flop for christ sakes if it was a gun and he wanted to pop off he wouldve a long time ago"

Yes, it was a flip flop. Can you tell the difference when they're hidden from view? Neither can I you stupid fuck.

"Its been 20 minutes, if he had a gun he'd have already shot us" is a strange kind of logic. Certainly not police procedure, or IMO, common sense.

10/31/2006 11:24:33 AM

Quote :

"And it seemed to me that the dominant mentality was "Let me talk to my gf and I'll give up."

He did say this. He also said several variations of, "I'm not going back to jail," which for him meant dying one way or the other.

10/31/2006 11:27:57 AM

I don't care what police procedure was. You can look at the guy's posture and it was pretty clear that he was not intending to shoot right then (even if his flip flop was a gun). Further, they gave him all of 20 minutes before they escalated it. Even if procedure was followed perfectly, the cops "pre-action" was ridiculous. The cops had plenty of time to set up in protected positions so even if the guy was going to fire on them, they would have had the huge upper hand.

This kind of thing is a self perpetuating thing too. The guy was clearly not trusting the cops so he helped in his own right cause the situation. Then the cops play their part and prove him right and word spreads around the neighborhood and in 10 years, you have another guy who has been bred to not trust the police because of shit like this.

10/31/2006 2:26:12 PM

Quote :

"I don't care what police procedure was."

Well it makes a difference between blaming these officers and blaming police procedure. Two MAJOR different ballgames in the real world.

Quote :

"The cops had plenty of time to set up in protected positions so even if the guy was going to fire on them, they would have had the huge upper hand. "

Did you get a better shot of the area showing defensive positions? I didn't. Not to mention huge upper hand means what, only 1 dead officer/bystander?

Quote :

"You can look at the guy's posture and it was pretty clear that he was not intending to shoot right then (even if his flip flop was a gun). "

Having the benefit of hindsight is impossibly difficult to ignore. You wouldn't say the same thing if he had a gun and popped two or three shots off during that time.

10/31/2006 2:31:53 PM

You are right about hindsight. It is very easy for me to sit back and look at his posture and assume that they could find defensive positions. In my opinion though, it was the fault of those officers, whether they technically followed whatever procedure they were given or not. Right and Wrong exist outside the rules. I can't imagine a scenario where forcing action within 20 minutes was necessary.

10/31/2006 2:41:13 PM

^Agreed. I think they fucked up too, but when it comes to "who to sue" you can only sue them personally if they broke police code.
If it was morally wrong, but the code calls for it, then we need to change the damn code.

I still want to know what the deal with the girl was. Is it actually procedure for him not to be allowed to talk to her, not even by radio?
And I also don't think they should have let the dog go that quick (and it sounds like that was atypical based on the side story)

BTW, kudos on admitting the possibility of hindsight bias. Its refreshing to see in the SB.

10/31/2006 4:23:07 PM

Quote :

"he was trying to act as if he was "hiding" a gun, hell he told everyone he had one and he told them that he intended to use it were they supposed to use super secret cop xray vision to determine that he didn't have one? the police dog isn't trained to kill people, it's trained to go after their arm once again, pretty much the only cop fuckup was letting the dogs go so early, they should have waited and he would have either made a move that got him shot, which he already implied was what he wanted, or he would have said "ok, this sucks, and I'm tired of it, just lock me up""

I've seen plenty of cop shows where they don't even fire when the man is pointing an obvious gun in their direction, this was just butchery they obviously had the upper hand and one of them was likely to hit the suspect before he could have aimed and fired his hypothetical gun, criminal or not I think he deserved the benefit of the doubt before getting gunned down

and why is no one even mentioning that they didn't seem to even check on his condition, what a sick fucking world

[Edited on November 4, 2006 at 11:54 PM. Reason : k]

11/4/2006 11:54:27 PM

This seems to be a case of group think on the part of the cops. I don't know the timeline for the cops arriving, finding him, etc. etc. but a) assuming that at least some of the cops knew this guy was wanted for murder, and b) assuming that they arrived on the scene in groups, taking up a defensive position, and taking cues (verbal / nonverbal / body language) from the other cops already there, the adrenaline might have feed off itself. When dude pulls out his flip flip (keep in mind, that bright light like that, while it illuminates the suspect, eliminates shadows and thus some depth perception / detail) its hard to tell what it is. They have about .5 seconds to determine what it is and react accordingly. With the testosterone / adrenaline at the levels they were at, after the first shot goes off . . .

I dunno, wasn't there, just my perception, but I've been in situations where things have gone boom and considerations that are clear in hindsight disappear when thousands of years of evolutionary self preservation instinct kick in. Also, to look at this in and of itself is to call a whole game based on one play. The background / experience (training, time, and events) of these cops and the mentality they have to adopt in order to go home to their kids every night are a huge factor.

In retrospect this could have been prevented had one cop, the sr. cop, prevailed in a focused and calm manner. Easier said than done, but a reasonable demand. To be a cop is not to be a soldier or a sniper, it is to be a servant of the people, and as such you accept a risk along those lines, like it or not.

11/5/2006 2:27:32 AM