Quote :

"Church is a bit different, because of the separation, but the odds are, nothing in that church forced or even attempted to force this guy to vote one way or the other. It was his own conscience making it difficult for him to accept his own viewpoints. That sucks, but it doesn't mean they should change standard voting procedures."

See, you guys are trying to put the blame on him, saying his conscience is at play here.

It isn't.

Neither is mine.

If anything, from what I think I know about Jesus, the man, I believe he'd approve of my stances of social issues.

Tolerance, compassion, charity...OMG, I'M THE DEVIL!

[Edited on November 9, 2006 at 10:54 PM. Reason : ]

11/9/2006 10:53:35 PM

Quote :

"The only reason I can imagine someone feeling uncomfortable is if they are not comfortable with their own beliefs."

Believe it or not, but there are some things that you'll never understand because of the way you were brought up.

After growing up a Jew there is no conceivable way that I can walk into a church and feel comfortable there. It's a lot different from "oh yeah, when I was 13 I decided I was an atheist".

11/9/2006 11:22:21 PM

There isn't going to be a place that's universally accepted as perfect, and everyone has an alternative with absentee voting, which isn't what you'd call "prohibitively difficult." This shouldn't be an issue.

Quote :

"After growing up a Jew there is no conceivable way that I can walk into a church and feel comfortable there."

Oooh, I can conceive of a way: some modicum of rationality.

You know on a clear-thinking level that you are no more likely to be intimidated, defrauded, harrassed, stoned to death, or expelled from the country walking into a church to vote than you are walking into an elementary school cafeteria or voting from your own home. I know there's a history and all sorts of offered justifications for a wariness of churches, but you're neither an idiot nor a robot (one hopes), and you know full bloody well that there isn't a good reason to feel uncomfortable. The boogeyman isn't in there to eat you and Ferdinand and Isabella aren't going to pop out of the nave and Spanish Inquisition your ass.

11/9/2006 11:57:26 PM

nobody expects the spanish inquisition

11/10/2006 12:13:49 AM

This guy needs to shut the fuck up and just vote.

Everybody wants to be a civil rights hero.

11/10/2006 12:17:36 AM

Quote :

"I know there's a history and all sorts of offered justifications for a wariness of churches, but you're neither an idiot nor a robot (one hopes), and you know full bloody well that there isn't a good reason to feel uncomfortable."

It really has nothing to do with voting at all. I'll tell you what though, when you get every Christian in the world to stop thinking that I'm somehow directly responsible for the death of their savior, then maybe I'll start to feel comfortable in a church. Nothing screams comfort like performing an action underneath an image that you've been accused of (by morons, granted) killing throughout your entire life.

When hearing the name "Stein" stops becoming an invitation in churches to try and convert me, then maybe I'll feel comfortable.

When I was younger my parents had to vote in a church and GASP the second the person read our last name, we were asked if we'd accepted Jesus Christ as our savior. Totally awesome experience that has happened every single time my last name has been seen/said in a church. We're fairly easy to pick out and the kind of Christians that generally float around the churches are also the types who feel deeply in need of saving my mortal soul. I know, I know -- anecdotal evidence; since I'm the pretty much the only Jew you've got around here though, you're going to have to take my word for this being what it's like, as a Jew, to go anywhere near a church.

So you know, believe it or not, I don't feel terribly comfortable going to places where I'm A) accused of killing Jesus B) outright disrespected and told I'm going to hell for my beliefs and C) not generally welcome and generally have no business. I'm not at all worried that I'm going to be lynched, beaten, etc. but that sure doesn't make me feel any more comfortable.

Like I said, I don't exactly expect you guys to understand.

11/10/2006 1:33:45 AM

First of all, the problem with people trying to convert you at the polls isn't with churches, its with the selection of election officials. Or do you think they couldn't try to pull the same shit elsewhere? Clear out the rifraff and enforce the rules. That doesn't necessitate picking new (and possibly nonexistant) polling places.

And so what if they're trying to get you to change what you believe? Half the people outside of any polling place are trying to get you to vote for someone you didn't plan on voting for, and that's something that's actually relevant to the subject at hand.

Quote :

"Like I said, I don't exactly expect you guys to understand."

Pretending like you're the only one who can understand on this board because your ass is Hebrew is juvenile first of all and fallacious to boot -- it doesn't add anything to the discussion. The simple fact is that you are refusing to try to get past this irrational aversion because maintaining it serves to give you some semblance of a cultural identity.

[Edited on November 10, 2006 at 2:08 AM. Reason : a]

11/10/2006 1:57:38 AM

Quote :

"The simple fact is that you are refusing to try to get past this irrational reversion because maintaining it serves to give you some semblance of a cultural identity."

Wow! That's a serious accusation.

11/10/2006 2:01:32 AM

What, and painting two billion Christians with such a broad brush as he did isn't?

I'm just calling it like I see it.

11/10/2006 2:09:29 AM

He wasn't painting 2 billion Christians. It just takes 1 nutty one/church to ruin his time there (voting or otherwise). I don't blame him for not wanting to be known as a Jew in a Church (although we had one of those Jews for Jesus people come to our church and do a sermon once-- it was awkward afterwards because the pastor had to say "no we're not converting to Judaism, but...").

11/10/2006 3:00:38 AM

Quote :

""If there is a place where church and state should be separated, the polling place should be it."""

it comes down to THAT fuckers, god damn

11/10/2006 3:05:22 AM

Quote :

"First of all, the problem with people trying to convert you at the polls isn't with churches, its with the selection of election officials. Or do you think they couldn't try to pull the same shit elsewhere?"

You tell me where people are more likely to feel empowered to spread their religious gospel -- a church or a school. I'm not saying the fact that it's in a church is the only fact, but it's certainly helping for it to happen.

Quote :

"And so what if they're trying to get you to change what you believe? Half the people outside of any polling place are trying to get you to vote for someone you didn't plan on voting for, and that's something that's actually relevant to the subject at hand."

Because I didn't show up to exercise my rights, only to be assaulted on the basis of something completely irrelevant to my business there?

Quote :

"Pretending like you're the only one who can understand on this board because your ass is Hebrew is juvenile first of all and fallacious to boot -- it doesn't add anything to the discussion."

Let me get this straight... trying to explain why a Jew might feel uncomfortable to going into a church doesn't add anything to the discussion about a Jew who felt uncomfortable going into a church and voting?

Quote :

"The simple fact is that you are refusing to try to get past this irrational aversion because maintaining it serves to give you some semblance of a cultural identity."

Yes, nothing screams "we're Jewish and we're proud" and ensures we maintain a cultural identity like not feeling comfortable in a place that we're generally not welcome and where attending generally means a great deal of frustration for us. That's just insulting.

It's not that I wouldn't go into a church to vote -- I obviously have and would, but asking me to feel 100% comfortable within the halls of a place where at least a portion of the population villifies me is asking for a bit much. And you're right, maybe that's something you should be able to understand.

Even though it's obvious you don't.

11/10/2006 7:40:37 AM

Quote :

"You tell me where people are more likely to feel empowered to spread their religious gospel -- a church or a school."

You could put a polling place in Jesus H. Christ's living room and it wouldn't matter as long as we did a better job picking election officials. I'd rather us try to get competent people who will do their jobs than abandon one place because of its particular brand of incompetent people.

Quote :

"Because I didn't show up to exercise my rights, only to be assaulted on the basis of something completely irrelevant to my business there?"

Assaulted? That's rich.

Quote :

"trying to explain why a Jew might feel uncomfortable to going into a church doesn't add anything to the discussion about a Jew who felt uncomfortable going into a church and voting?"

That's not remotely what I said and you know it. Explaining why you feel uncomfortable is one thing. Saying, "But only I understand it" it is another.

Quote :

"Yes, nothing screams "we're Jewish and we're proud" and ensures we maintain a cultural identity like not feeling comfortable in a place"

Groups are defined, to various degrees, by their interaction to outside groups and pressures. And let's be fair, even if it is largely warranted by historical circumstance a rather larger part than usual of the Jewish cultural identity has to do with being persecuted.

11/10/2006 9:36:06 AM

Quote :

"Assaulted? That's rich."

I'm sorry you disagree with a properly used word. What word would you prefer I use, since you seem to be an absolute expert on this topic?

Quote :

"That's not remotely what I said and you know it. Explaining why you feel uncomfortable is one thing. Saying, "But only I understand it" it is another."

And now you're putting words in my mouth. Cute trick.

Quote :

"Groups are defined, to various degrees, by their interaction to outside groups and pressures. And let's be fair, even if it is largely warranted by historical circumstance a rather larger part than usual of the Jewish cultural identity has to do with being persecuted."

So, in your eyes, all Jews have a persecution complex and that's why we don't feel comfortable in churches? That's moronic.

Also, you should learn a little more about the Jewish culture.

[Edited on November 10, 2006 at 10:04 AM. Reason : .]

11/10/2006 10:03:36 AM

Quote :

"And now you're putting words in my mouth. Cute trick."

Fine, I'll rephrase: Saying "But you don't understand" is another thing. Even though it's basically the same thing, I just didn't bother to extend your uniqueness to other Jews the first time around.

Quote :

"What word would you prefer I use"

Someone asking you if you've accepted Jesus is not assault. There was no threat, no insult, at least insofar as you have told us so far about your experiences specifically regarding polling places.

Quote :

"So, in your eyes, all Jews have a persecution complex and that's why we don't feel comfortable in churches?"

Now who's putting words in mouths?

First of all, I don't think "all Jews" have much of anything in common, anymore than "all Christians" or "all Mexicans." I think that "all Jews who are made queasy by entering a church" have a persecution complex, and moreover that they are actively cultivating that complex because it is a way to share something with Jews throughout history, namely that they are oppressed.

11/10/2006 11:00:01 AM

Would it be ok to vote at a place with pictures of dead corpses, babies, and other disturbing artifacts around?

11/10/2006 11:02:56 AM

^I wondered about that too. Images of dead people are disturbing and offensive--you wouldn't have a picture of a man getting stabbed, in every single room of your home--but since it's Jesus, we're supposed to be alright with it.

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: Like voter turnout could get much worse. The last few elections have seen the highest turnout in a long while, and only because of Bush."

You're right. The few people who vote will always vote; a national holiday wouldn't change that.

[Edited on November 10, 2006 at 1:15 PM. Reason : sss]

11/10/2006 1:06:40 PM

Quote :

"Someone asking you if you've accepted Jesus is not assault. There was no threat, no insult, at least insofar as you have told us so far about your experiences specifically regarding polling places. "

Someone asking if he's accepted Jesus, after finding out his last name is Jewish is insulting.

It's like asking a black person if they want some fried chicken.

[Edited on November 10, 2006 at 1:17 PM. Reason : ]

11/10/2006 1:17:12 PM

Quote :

"Would it be ok to vote at a place with pictures of dead corpses, babies, and other disturbing artifacts around?"

Why not, though I can't imagine a haunted house is the most efficient place to put a voting station.

11/10/2006 1:20:56 PM

It's funny when someone says the most dumb absurd shit while trying to stick to their guns.

11/10/2006 1:37:50 PM

Quote :

"It's like asking a black person if they want some fried chicken."

No, it isn't. It's like finding out someone is going to vote against you and trying to convince them to vote for you.

11/10/2006 3:26:44 PM

perhaps if you also implied that the person would go to hell if they didn't vote for you.

11/10/2006 3:35:12 PM

Quote :

"It's funny when someone says the most dumb absurd shit while trying to stick to their guns."

It's funny when people try and argue with dumb and absurd arguments that don't hold water and completely belittle any semblance of seriousness their argument might hold.

Can you name for me one place where without purposefuly changing it's natural state before you put a polling place in would be filled with pictures of dead corpses (redundant?), babies and other distrubing artifacts?

If you put a polling place in a church or temple, one would expect religious artifacts to be in the area. Where would you put a voting booth that would lead one to expect to see dead babies and corpses other than a haunted house or a morgue.

11/10/2006 3:47:40 PM

^That one place would be a church.

Pictures of the baby jesus, crucifixes with a dead Jesus portrayed on them, etc...

11/10/2006 5:21:36 PM

Are pictures of baby jesus disturbing to you?

11/10/2006 8:37:29 PM

^In conjuction with a dead Jesus on a cross, I could see how some folks might be disturbed by that.

Me personally?

Depends on the context. But most likely no.

11/10/2006 8:48:17 PM

I think people are far too sensitive.

11/10/2006 8:53:56 PM

Just a friendly reminder that a goatman will set you on fire forever if you vote the wrong way.

But I voted church and didn't give it much thought though.

11/10/2006 8:55:20 PM

clearly bridgetspk is a highlander

11/12/2006 9:28:19 PM

so, is there such a thing as a "live corpse?" I'm just wondering

11/12/2006 10:03:03 PM

the polling place near my house is in a methodist church, it didn't offend me to be in a house of the excommunicated when voting....

11/13/2006 8:05:16 AM

Quote :

"If anything, from what I think I know about Jesus, the man, I believe he'd approve of my stances of social issues. "

Yes, most people feel Christ is on their side of the issues.
I bet he's an avid pro-choicer.

Also,

Quote :

"Tolerance, compassion, charity...OMG, I'M THE DEVIL! "

aren't monopolized by your side of the table. Charity? Forced charity isn't charity.

11/13/2006 8:10:34 AM

Quote :

"This guy needs to shut the fuck up and just vote. Everybody wants to be a civil rights hero."

11/13/2006 8:12:58 AM

Quote :

"Yes, most people feel Christ is on their side of the issues. I bet he's an avid pro-choicer. "

Oh oh I like this game! I bet he's pro-death penalty, and also that he's pro-war! Oh jeez what else is he pro... let's just toss in the Republican party's social agenda.

11/13/2006 12:04:20 PM

Jesus would be pro-choice, but he'd be able to convince you to choose life.

11/13/2006 12:06:55 PM

Quote :

"[user][user]bgmims[/user]: Also, "Tolerance, compassion, charity...OMG, I'M THE DEVIL!" aren't monopolized by your side of the table. Charity? Forced charity isn't charity."

1. I can't believe you fell for it.
2. Can't come up with any arguments against my side having the monopoly on tolerance and compassion?

Hmmm...

11/13/2006 1:30:59 PM

Wait, so you're asking me to find one example where people who believe differently than you are compassionate and tolerate?

Or are you asking me for a social issue where I feel Jesus would have a different stance than you?

Quote :

"Oh oh I like this game! I bet he's pro-death penalty, and also that he's pro-war! Oh jeez what else is he pro... let's just toss in the Republican party's social agenda. "

It is quite obvious Christ would be anti-death penalty and that he is also a pacifist. I don't believe Christ would be on board with quite a good deal of the Republican party's social agenda.

What I was saying was that her "Christ agrees with me on social issues" argument is fallacious. It is as stupid to claim Christ for her side as it would be for republicans to do the same.

[Edited on November 13, 2006 at 2:22 PM. Reason : .]

11/13/2006 2:20:37 PM

^ I didn't say "Christ agrees with me."

I said that, from what I think I know about the man Christ, I believe he'd approve of my stances on social issues...

Quote :

"BridgetSPK: If anything, from what I think I know about Jesus, the man, I believe he'd approve of my stances of social issues."

My statement can't be fallacious because I'm not making an attempt at logic. And I'm not trying to deceive anyone.

Just sharing about what I think I know and what I believe.

But you seem quick to support my thoughts and beliefs with thoughts and beliefs of your own...

Quote :

"bgmims: It is quite obvious Christ would be anti-death penalty and that he is also a pacifist. I don't believe Christ would be on board with quite a good deal of the Republican party's social agenda."

[Edited on November 13, 2006 at 5:18 PM. Reason : sss]

11/13/2006 5:16:29 PM

I'll be the first to agree that Jesus would be kind of a hippie on a lot of issues. But that doesn't mean he'd approve of every single one of your stances on social issues.

Also, the difference between 'Christ agrees with you' and 'Christ approves of your stances' is so minute that it makes the semantics troll

11/13/2006 5:28:22 PM

oh, Jesus Christ, why in the hell are you goddamned retards arguing this sort of stuff?

1. Guessing where Jesus would stand politically on some of these issues is an exercise in futility, not to mention that he would probably have far more nuanced beliefs than many of you are conveniently asserting.

I mean, shit, Jesus has his own big ass, huge book where he outlines his stances on anything he wants. If he left something out, I don't take that as an accident. I take that as "use your own God-given judgement to figure it out. I'm giving you some rope, here, for any of a variety of reasons."

2. How many of you who are trying to invoke the "this is what Jesus would think about it" argument are also quite willing to say "the Bible is not a political manual, and we shouldn't be basing our government around it.

[Edited on November 13, 2006 at 5:45 PM. Reason : asdfasd]

11/13/2006 5:38:00 PM

^I was responding to this...

Quote :

"bgmims: It was his own conscience making it difficult for him to accept his own viewpoints."

I'm suggesting that no church would make me have difficulty accepting my own viewpoints, as I think Jesus would be totally down with me. It's not an argument; it's not up for debate...this is the second time I've tried to explain that. That's the way I feel, and that's why being in a church wouldn't affect my conscience and make it difficult for me to accept my own viewpoints.

I see Jesus as this guy who healed people, washed hooker's feet, had a lot of parties, and encouraged tolerance and compassion among his fellow men. And I'm hip to that so, no, I would not have a problem with my conscience in a church.

[Edited on November 13, 2006 at 7:54 PM. Reason : Get it?]

11/13/2006 7:53:27 PM

^Damn...hookers', not hooker's

11/13/2006 10:19:17 PM

jesus was a socialist you hippies

11/13/2006 10:22:31 PM

^theDuke866 wants to know why you're such a "goddamned retard"...

11/13/2006 11:15:33 PM

Quote :

"I see Jesus as this guy who healed people, washed hooker's feet, had a lot of parties, and encouraged tolerance and compassion among his fellow men. And I'm hip to that so, no, I would not have a problem with my conscience in a church."

But you'd be uncomfortable in a church without a cause...which is to say "I have done the impossible, had an effect without a cause"

11/14/2006 7:27:52 AM

^Yes. Sometimes I'm uncomfortable in churches, but it's not because I have a poor moral compass or I have trouble with my conscience.

11/14/2006 1:50:41 PM

Well, but there must be a cause. That's fundamental physics. Your assertion was that there was no cause.

11/14/2006 2:17:47 PM

^Yeah, I got that.

I defy physics. It's part of my religion.

11/14/2006 4:10:38 PM