Please, pinkandblack, explain how I did not listen? My exact words were

Quote :

"Yes, this all already known. But the holocaust did expedite the formation of Israel, because it got people behind them to support the Jewish cause."

First off, that quote he posted wasn't from me.

Secondly, are you suggesting I didn't listen becasue I believe that the establishment of Israel was made easeier because of a holocaust? Thats quite the assertion. But yes, please explain how I have failed to listen.

12/14/2006 3:36:44 PM

ATTN: SOAP BOX

please come claim this thread

kkthx

12/14/2006 3:39:25 PM

I had to repeat it. It blows my mind when people think that a bunch of jews showed up in 1947 and set up shop.

I guess we just need to give Israel back to the Ottoman empire.

Or let all of the living Palestinians who lived there prior to 1917 have their old homes back.

Either way, arguing that it was unjustly stolen from the people living in Palestine now is ridiculous. Israel has as much legitimacy as every other middle eastern country that was drawn on a map by the British.

12/14/2006 3:39:33 PM

Quote :

"I had to repeat it. It blows my mind when people think that a bunch of jews showed up in 1947 and set up shop."

I'm glad that it blows your mind, but no one said that here, so I don't know why you would feel the need to assert that point of view.

Quote :

"I guess we just need to give Israel back to the Ottoman empire. Or let all of the living Palestinians who lived there prior to 1917 have their old homes back."

Multiple times it has been stated in this thread that no one here is suggesting israel should cease to exist, but that they should reduce themselves to the 1947 borders established, not the post 1967. If the UN unanimously agreed with that concept, I don't understand how you all are having such a hard time with it.

Quote :

"Israel has as much legitimacy as every other middle eastern country that was drawn on a map by the British."

I agree partially, because that gives Palestine legitimacy and justification for a homeland for the people of palestine. I disagree partially, because other countries created did not result in an influx of immigration by one ethnic group, only to displace a previous group and eventually forbid them the live in the area at all. That result negates some of the legitimacy they have. If Israel were to allow others to live there in peace, and abide by the established borders there would be no issue what so ever.

12/14/2006 3:49:57 PM

Meh, I skimmed the thread. I'm sorry if repetition offends you and your high horse.

12/14/2006 3:53:05 PM

Why is anyone surprised that this guy is inviting Jews to his country to be discriminated against?

12/14/2006 4:00:20 PM

Its not repetition that offends me, its the implied assumptions that anyone who is not screaming "you go girl, israel you bad mofo" is some how saying israel has no right, or should cease to exist.

regardless, apology accepted.

12/14/2006 4:04:24 PM

Quote :

"Furthermore, you go on to assert blame in your comment by using the 'you', which in this case clearly means Germany. Since you clearly beleive in reparations and accountability for blame then why not set up a homeland in Germany for the groups of people who lost so much life? Why in palestine? Are the jews some how greater than the palestinies that the palestinies no longer deserve a piece of land to call their own?"

Wow you're a fucking retard. Germany started it, so yeah, they got fucked over and they deserved it. It's a shame so many Russians died (more than any other faction), but they've got all the land they could ever want. Germans didn't get marginalized during the war, Jews did.

Quote :

"make up facts"

Yeah, I made that thing about WWII up off the top of my head. Nobody died at all.

Man, I'm sick of your bullshit. It's not like Jewish people weren't there before, and it's not like they have a country the size of the USA. I'm not trying to be an apologist for either size, but you're being entirely insensitive to why the country was created in the first place.

[Edited on December 14, 2006 at 5:23 PM. Reason : .]

12/14/2006 5:13:27 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

So much to be learned...

Basically since around 1250 AD Jews have been moving back to their homeland and buying land. During WW1 Britain took control of the land from the Turks, then the League of Nations decided that the Brits should foster a Jewish home state. More jews moved there. After WW2 the Jews began to fight against the arabs. After declaring independence, they ended up having a war with all their neighbors when their neighbors attacked first, and then won independence through that war. The UN saw that as acceptable, and admitted them as a sovereign country in 1949.

Summary: Lots of Jews moved there, bought land, and eventually fought a defensive war to have their own country. Replace Jews with Europeans and you have the USA...

[Edited on December 14, 2006 at 5:31 PM. Reason : ]

12/14/2006 5:22:43 PM

Quote :

"StillFuckingDumb: Once again you display your weak mind by using ad hominem and non sequitors all as attempts of proper recourse. Some times I wonder if the only reason you continue to post is for a chance to use your poor sarcasm driven by emotion(Fuck people, they suck! ), personal attacks (",toots"), ignore direct questions and make up facts (holocaust helped bring on the war, what i meant was..)...I digress."

You only continue to prove my point in your most recent post.

Quote :

"Wow you're a fucking retard. Germany started it, so yeah, they got fucked over and they deserved it"

Quote :

"Yeah, I made that thing about WWII up off the top of my head"

Quote :

"Man, I'm sick of you'll bullshit. It's not like Jewish people weren't there before, and it's not like they have a country the size of the USA"

Once again more ad hominem, more non sequitors, and more avoidance of questions.

Yes Germany started it, agreed, but not Palestine. I don't know where you were really going with that comment or what you were trying to prove but you never stated why palestine should have been the choice for the jewish homeland instead of germany. That was a direct question I asked an my only reference to Germany at all in my statement. Please point to me exactly how that comment made me "fucking retarded". Additionally, thats good and well about the Russians, but you never answered my comment about the chinese. You imply by saying "russia has all the land it needs" and that israel is such a small plot that availability to the group is what makes the justification of allotment, which could be your rationale for why china shouldn't get japan. In that case, why not partition a part of the united states or any other noninovlved country --such as palestine--as the jewish homeland, since as you stated the US has so much land.

Quote :

"Yeah, I made that thing about WWII up off the top of my head. Nobody died at all. Man, I'm sick of your bullshit. It's not like Jewish people weren't there before, and it's not like they have a country the size of the USA. I'm not trying to be an apologist for either size, but you're being entirely insensitive to why the country was created in the first place."

For an english major your reading comprehension sucks. What I was implying is that you were originially speaking about the hollocaust as the event, and not WW2. Also, jews were still living in Palestine at the time of the end of the war, but their existence at one point or another thousands of years ago does not warrant sovereignty over the land, nor does it warrant exclusive policies. The jews could have relocated there without all of that. Moreover, their small country is still > than the 0sqft that the palestinian people are left with.

Quote :

"but you're being entirely insensitive to why the country was created in the first place."

If you're implying the holocaust, then you're incorrect. That has been established multiple times in this thread alone. Not to mention you should have some grasp on the history if you're going to discuss it. Otherwise, please describe how it is insensitive to the reason it was created in the first place.



[Edited on December 14, 2006 at 5:37 PM. Reason : >]

12/14/2006 5:35:23 PM

Allow me to reiterate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

and also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Mandate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Mandate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Mandate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Mandate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Mandate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Mandate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Mandate

[Edited on December 14, 2006 at 5:41 PM. Reason : ]

12/14/2006 5:39:47 PM

Giving parts of Israel "back to" the Palestinians is like giving Paris "back to" the Germans.

12/14/2006 5:46:41 PM

Quote :

"Additionally, thats good and well about the Russians, but you never answered my comment about the chinese. You imply by saying "russia has all the land it needs" and that israel is such a small plot that availability to the group is what makes the justification of allotment, which could be your rationale for why china shouldn't get japan. In that case, why not partition a part of the united states or any other noninovlved country --such as palestine--as the jewish homeland, since as you stated the US has so much land."

That was my reasoning. Please tell me how partitioning a part of any other country isn't "taking others off their land," since that's what you seem to be so uptight about. Unless you're just in defense of the Palestinians instead of any other group of people on the planet.

Quote :

"Yes Germany started it, agreed, but not Palestine. I don't know where you were really going with that comment or what you were trying to prove but you never stated why palestine should have been the choice for the jewish homeland instead of germany"

Personally, I wouldn't like to stay in a country where my people had been ethnically cleansed- would you? What if it happened again? Not to mention that postwar Germany was not a fun place to be.

[Edited on December 14, 2006 at 6:11 PM. Reason : .]

12/14/2006 5:58:05 PM

Quote :

"Summary: Lots of Jews moved there, bought land, and eventually fought a defensive war to have their own country. Replace Jews with Europeans and you have the USA..."

You're on the right track, but it's not quite the argument you want it to be.

12/14/2006 6:11:38 PM

Good thing that the indians never figured out how to make suicide bombs.

12/14/2006 6:13:24 PM

jew-hating is totally NOT COOL in my book, i mean gotdamn nucca. why you gotta hate so much, that's just usin up energy you can have for porking chicks.

12/14/2006 6:34:28 PM

Quote :

"Good thing that the indians never figured out how to make suicide bombs."

Oh, they put up plenty of resistance.

Good thing the Zionists' goals aren't as grandiose as visions of a country stretching from sea to sea.

12/14/2006 6:42:35 PM

^ Say what you will, Israelis are treating Palestinians better than the US treated the indians back then.

12/14/2006 7:14:07 PM

No, probably not. Though that might depend on the exact group of Indians in question.

12/14/2006 7:17:37 PM

pretty much any of them

12/14/2006 7:26:14 PM

Quote :

"Giving parts of Israel "back to" the Palestinians is like giving Paris "back to" the Germans."

I hope the guy who posted this was just playing dumb, because this had to be the stupidest thing I've read in a long time.

12/15/2006 1:21:13 AM

god Ahmadinejad is bad ass

12/15/2006 1:24:54 AM

Quote :

"That was my reasoning. Please tell me how partitioning a part of any other country isn't "taking others off their land," since that's what you seem to be so uptight about. Unless you're just in defense of the Palestinians instead of any other group of people on the planet."

So unless I'm misunderstanding something, you are stating that availability of land to the mistreated group is your reasoning. Then you ask me to tell you how partitioning any other country isn't just "taking others off their land". Partitioning for any other sect post WW2 would have been just has bad, this is my point entirely. I don't believe that partitioning of any type is acceptable; hence, why I am so 'uptight' about the palestinian issue and why I asked you to explain if partitioning for any other country was an acceptable measure since you seem to be able to justify the act for some groups. In other words, I would have not justified it for any group--including israel-- post war and you exclusively back that position for Israel. Seeing has how the areas of palestine that I have suggested Israel remove itself from are not part of Israel, they are then considered under illegal occupation and would not also be an instance of taking others off their land.

Quote :

"Personally, I wouldn't like to stay in a country where my people had been ethnically cleansed- would you? What if it happened again? Not to mention that postwar Germany was not a fun place to be."

Seeing as how Germany was the front runner for two world wars, they could have alternatively dissolved Germany as they did Prussia and other countries. This would have made Germany a more suitable place post-war and would not have maintained the stigma of living in a place where your people were ethnically cleansed. However I only suggest this per your "Germany started it, so yeah, they got fucked over and they deserved it" to show that since they deserved to get 'fucked over' and palestine didn't, that cocessions could have been made to punish germany and refrain from conflict in the middle east region regarding israel.

You kind of sound like samuel l jackson from a time to kill. "Yeah I killed them, and i hope they burn in hell!"

12/15/2006 9:09:38 AM

Quote :

"Seeing as how Germany was the front runner for two world wars, they could have alternatively dissolved Germany as they did Prussia and other countries. This would have made Germany a more suitable place post-war and would not have maintained the stigma of living in a place where your people were ethnically cleansed. However I only suggest this per your "Germany started it, so yeah, they got fucked over and they deserved it" to show that since they deserved to get 'fucked over' and palestine didn't, that cocessions could have been made to punish germany and refrain from conflict in the middle east region regarding israel."

All this arguing isn't fixing anything, either- they didn't dissolve Germany, and nor did they give the Jews a homeland in Germany. I don't blame Jews for wanting to go to a holy place (where they felt safe and in the hands of God) after all the things that happened to them, and you seem to want to say that they should've just sucked it up and stayed wherever they happened to be? Like I said, postwar Germany was completely economically fucked after WWII- and yeah, maybe former Nazis deserved some of that, but Jews who had already been reduced to work camps and ghettos probably didn't want to stay in a place of complete economic stagnation. You're claiming Palestine was dragged into this whole mess, when you're ignoring that Arabs revolted against incoming Jews for years before they set it up officially. While the Holocaust was happening, Palestinians were fighting against Israelis coming over there! If that's not incredibly insensitive, I don't know what is. I mean, where do these people go? What do you tell them, that they're not wanted ANYWHERE after such an atrocity?

The point remains that Israel does exist and that the US has backed it through thick and thin, so that's unlikely to change.

12/15/2006 11:13:14 AM

^^^^ it makes as much sense

12/15/2006 11:15:46 AM

Quote :

"You're claiming Palestine was dragged into this whole mess, when you're ignoring that Arabs revolted against incoming Jews for years before they set it up officially. While the Holocaust was happening, Palestinians were fighting against Israelis coming over there! If that's not incredibly insensitive, I don't know what is. I mean, where do these people go? What do you tell them, that they're not wanted ANYWHERE after such an atrocity?"

They could have continued to immigrate into the US, France, Brittian, Russia, etc... They had places to go, and many arms were wide open to them after WW2. How you're comingup with "not wanted anywhere" is beyond me- not wanted in palestine, perhaps. Additionally, those jewish groups that you mentioned that were setteling into the palestine area at the time had formed multiple terrorist groups that attacked british establishments in the region for supporting arab interests and as an attempt to remove british control over the region; although, it was birtish control that gratned jewish immigration into the region. These groups were acknowledged as terrorist groups by the leauge of nations at the time. Some of these groups were so extreme that they themselves sided with the nazis in order to go against britian. This led to the bombings of palestine during the second world war. Personally, if another group came into came into where i lived and then began to fight the ruling party that had been the major supporter for their inclusuion into the region and who was also acting as a chaparone to assure equal rights and policies between both groups then I would fight them from coming over as well. Who would want to allow document terrorist groups to increase their numbers in a country that was becoming increasingly stable?

Quote :

"Giving parts of Israel "back to" the Palestinians is like giving Paris "back to" the Germans.""

I, too, fail to see the conection on how those two things are at all similar. germany took paris from the french. In order for it to be similar, palestine would have had to have taken parts of israel from the israelis, which hasn't happened. While still a stretch, a more accurate statement would be the israelis holidng jerusalem would be like if germany never lost paris.

[Edited on December 15, 2006 at 12:03 PM. Reason : germany and paris. I see london, I see france...!!!!1!]

12/15/2006 12:00:09 PM

I blame Lawrence of Arabia. If he hadn't have convinced the arabs to support the British in WW2 against the Ottoman Empire, Britian never would have gained Palestine and thus never would have given it to the Jews.

12/15/2006 12:44:42 PM

^^^No it doesnt.

Palestinian Arabs have always been native to that region. Have modern Germans always been native to Paris?

12/15/2006 12:50:56 PM

too bad they couldnt finish off the jews around 600bc...they were so close

12/15/2006 12:56:17 PM

Quote :

"If he hadn't have convinced the arabs to support the British in WW2 against the Ottoman Empire"

I really hope thats a typo.

12/15/2006 2:29:22 PM

The sure Brits kicked the crap out of the Ottomans in '40s.

Probably 'cuz those crazy Turks were sending the Armenians off to Hitler's death camps.

12/15/2006 2:32:47 PM

^^^^ If you want to limit it to "modern Germans" you should also limit it to "modern Palestinians" but you didn't because you know you're wrong.

Hundreds of years ago, German tribes were in the area we now call France. They and the Romans fought over the land long before France existed.

Nice try at the revisionist history though.

12/15/2006 3:22:51 PM

^gauls?

12/15/2006 3:25:23 PM

Quote :

"Nice try at the revisionist history though."

Time to STFU or GTFO, n00b.

12/15/2006 3:40:22 PM

good rebuttle, gv

12/15/2006 3:42:42 PM

Indeed.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rebuttle

12/15/2006 3:46:48 PM

ah dammit i knew that looked funny

12/15/2006 3:47:39 PM

No, I think you got it right.

It was a nice "I'm gunna beat yo ass."

That's what I was going for, at least.

[Edited on December 15, 2006 at 3:53 PM. Reason : rebuttle]

12/15/2006 3:48:42 PM

i hope some swordplay is involved

12/15/2006 3:54:27 PM

Pumpkins certainly will be.

12/15/2006 3:57:29 PM

12/15/2006 4:15:58 PM

Quote :

"If you want to limit it to "modern Germans" you should also limit it to "modern Palestinians" but you didn't because you know you're wrong. Hundreds of years ago, German tribes were in the area we now call France. They and the Romans fought over the land long before France existed. Nice try at the revisionist history though. "

Palestinian Arabs have, and currently do reside in that area. Modern ones, premordern ones, take your pick. They've lived there for years and haven't left.

Maybe if Germany never left Paris, your comparison would be correct.

12/16/2006 3:59:49 AM