^^ this gas tax has been discussed for years
they rob funds out of the highway fund and it pisses me off, esp when they come back and ask for more tax money or threaten to not build a road we've been paying for, but all the time they didn't hesitate to quickly build 540 from rtp to wakefield

thanks for being a tool though

^ explains alot and doesn't surprise me

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 1:57 PM. Reason : ...]

2/8/2007 1:56:42 PM

They haven't stolen from the Highway Fund. Feel free to prove me wrong. All they did was change the % of car sales tax that goes to the Highway Trust Fund.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 2:02 PM. Reason : ?]

2/8/2007 2:00:55 PM

there were articles out a few years ago that talked about how they diverted funds


semantics... robbing, diverting... whatever

the fact remains that they want to tax the citizens of this state some more instead of taxing the people that just blow through here on the interstates

2/8/2007 2:05:23 PM

The point is, the money they diverted from the Trust Fund has nothing to do with the gas tax. It had to do with balancing the budget using money from car sales taxes. They had always intended for some of the car sales tax revenue to go into the general fund.

They had to balance the budget. Would you rather they raise taxes, or cut spending?

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 2:11 PM. Reason : ?]

2/8/2007 2:07:30 PM

it's all sorts of taxes, ok car tax, I don't know about you but I buy vehicles on occassion


the point remains that politicians in this state cannot balance a budget and way too often use funds for other things to pay for their pet projects

we've been paying for 540 for years, now that they've finished the section to allow the millionaires to get to and fro work easily they want a toll both for the rest of the sections that have been promised... thats shady

cut spending, toll booths on the interstates

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 2:14 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2007 2:14:26 PM

Is this not the way conservatism works? You prioritize and re-allocate your resources according to your priorities when necessary. We had to balance the budget, we had to meet obligations for Medicaid and education. However, we could afford to delay some new roads being built.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 2:17 PM. Reason : ?]

2/8/2007 2:16:50 PM

you don't get it

why do you keep trying to be a partisan tool?

they tax us moe than once on the same thing, divert the funds to pet projects (teacup museums etc) then claim they had a shortfall and need more money

it has nothing to do with left/right, dem/pub


can anyone make a goddamn thread in here without this bullshit?

2/8/2007 2:19:36 PM

How am I being a partisan tool? I'm telling you reality and you are telling me some twisted shit you believe but can't document. You're just repeating tired partisan arguments. You may claim to not be partisan, but you can't claim you aren't ignorant if you beleive all that. Feel free to prove anything you say.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 2:23 PM. Reason : ?]

2/8/2007 2:21:13 PM

The NC state government is one of the worst in the nation when it comes to mishandling budget affairs. This is indeed true. I don't like partisan bullshit either, but I sometimes wonder whether it has anything to do with the fact that our state house has been controlled, more or less, by Democrats for decades now.

2/8/2007 2:26:35 PM

I read everything you've said and understand it


my issue was with the toll booths on a local road after we've already paid taxes on it

you've avoided every other section of what I am complaining about

maybe if you drive around you'd care

I'm sorry I'm ignorant and you think I'm being partisan... I've yet to blame any particular party in this matter

oh wait, you're just arguing to argue because I don't vote like you?

2/8/2007 2:26:49 PM

How can you say something so subjective and then claim it to be true? Do you know enough to say that?

2/8/2007 2:27:37 PM

I've lived in raleigh my whole life and read the papers, watched the news, heard local news reports my whole life

OMG ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, IT CAN'T BE ACCPETED HERE ON TWW

2/8/2007 2:29:34 PM

I'm arguing with you because you are repeating untrue bullshit you heard somewhere without bothering to research it yourself. With so much distrust of gov't, you'd think you wouldn't be so much of a partisan sheep.

I'm not in favor of toll booths anywhere. But if they are going to happen, it needs to be on roads that wouldn't have been built otherwise. I think a better plan is to make the developers and homeowners who start a building frenzy south of Raleigh over the next 10 years pay for it.

2/8/2007 2:31:28 PM

Quote :

"OMG ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, IT CAN'T BE ACCPETED HERE ON TWW"

You should present anecdotal evidence as such. You say, "I heard", not this is so.

2/8/2007 2:32:22 PM

Quote :

"The NC state government is one of the worst in the nation when it comes to mishandling budget affairs. "

So what states should we emulate? How do they do it better?

2/8/2007 2:33:39 PM

will you stfu... you partisan faggot, I haven't blamed any political party whatsoever, it's the politicians as a whole


I've read the stuff, they divert funds all the time and your head is buried in the sand if you act like they don't


and if thats the case, then why not a toll on the section they hurriedly finished that runs from rtp to wakefield and the new mall... you lefties hate rich folks, why aren't you clamoring for them to be taxed


stfu faggot, thanks for derailing the thread

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 2:34 PM. Reason : you double post like a mofo, just edit...]

2/8/2007 2:34:24 PM

I guess when you lack knowledge and ideas you have to fall back to name calling...

Quote :

"I hate our state government, they've pissed away our tax money for years with no accountability"

I'm pretty sure you derailed your own thread.

Quote :

"you lefties hate rich folks, why aren't you clamoring for them to be taxed"

Not partisan at all. Do you really believe 'lefties' hate rich people? Most 'lefties' I know of are quite well off. They don't hate rich people, the feel that the well-off (including themselves) have a responsibility to care for the less fortunate.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 2:41 PM. Reason : ?]

2/8/2007 2:36:57 PM

because you've been accusing me of being partisan and calling me ignorant

fuck off asshole


I don't feel like searching for some articles... not to mention you've still avoided the main reasoning I made this thread, even when I read your article and didn't say it was wrong or try to discredit it... and you still call names and try to argue

so yeah, fuck off toolbag

2/8/2007 2:39:40 PM

you know guys they have PMs for this kinda stuff.


b/c now all debate on this rather important piece of info has been lost.
so....

back on topic, why shouldn't their be tolls on 540? Anyone?

2/8/2007 2:43:40 PM

I have addressed your topic. I beleive that tolling existing roads is bad (almost immoral), I dislike tolls in general, and I would only support it on roads that wouldn't have been built otherwise. I'm skeptical that many people would use 540 if it were tolled. We don't really need it that bad.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 2:45 PM. Reason : ?]

2/8/2007 2:44:35 PM

It seems to be kinda a dumb argument to say "don't put a toll when we are already taxed". The money has to come from somewhere. I think rather than attacking politicians for wanting to raise the tax, they should be attacked for lack of over site and efficiency in managing the funds. But we all know this is an inherent weakness in government, and I don't think it ever gets better.

Regardless of all that, I thought it was common knowledge that NC had some of the highest miles of state supported road in the union, which is why we have a high tax. I think we should mimic Virginia more in that the interstates and some of the major highways (64, 49, among others) get good support, and all these other lesser traveled ones don't. Either you don't mind paying more tax (along with everyone else) or you have to pay to have your car repaired when it gets beat up driving on back country roads. There is no free lunch.

Quote :

"I think a better plan is to make the developers and homeowners who start a building frenzy south of Raleigh over the next 10 years pay for it."

This indeed seems to be a better idea.

In googling around looking for these so called pork projects and mishandling of funds by our state, I found this
http://www.ncdot.org/public/speeches/southbrunsisles07_01.html

Some interesting points
We have more than 79,000 miles of state-maintained highway. Only Texas has as many.

And more importantly this
- In North Carolina, unlike many other states, a major portion of the burden to fund local transportation improvements rests on the state level rather than the local level.
- According to a recent census report, North Carolina ranks 19th nationally in per capita highway spending on the state level, but only 49th in those same expenditures on the local level.

This goes back to the free lunch statement I made. You're gonna get dinged one way or the other, either through higher gas taxes, toll roads, or higher local taxes as municipalities have to take care to manage their roads. It seems like a good idea to me to let the State maintain a highway that spans multiple municipalities rather than leaving it up to each municipality to do as they see fit.

2/8/2007 3:25:14 PM

I have to admit I'm slightly confused how people are saying we are paying for 540 twice and that the state has stolen money from 540 to pay for other things.

The fact of the matter is that the state has things to pay for and that they get the majority of their money from taxing us. Since they don't have enough money to pay for things, they have to get more money in some way, ie tolls on 540.

I've never read anything that has shown that the state took money out of either of the highway funds to pay for something non highway related. Anything that goes into it goes towards roadway construction/repair. Now they have diverted some of the vehicle tax dollars towards other areas (ie put less in) but there isn't any laws (to my knowledge) that state that vehicle taxes have to go to roadway construction, just as there isn't a law saying sales tax on food has to go to agriculture.

You've been paying gas and vehicle taxes for years... true. But you haven't been paying for 540 for years as I keep hearing. That money went for other roadway projects. Basically you have three options for 540 near cary. 1) Don't have it. 2) Raise gas/vehicle tax to pay for it. 3) Add tolls to it so the people who benefit from it pay for it.

Anyway I don't know a whole lot about whats going on but enough to know that some of what is being said on here isn't far from accurate.

2/8/2007 3:58:38 PM

when they say they are gonna build something and they raise funds for it to build it


and then they hurry up and build part of it


then they decide "oh wait, it's gonna cost a whole lot more than we thought, we need 2x what we thought" and start trying to raise more tax funds


nope, nothing fishy here

remember when the lottery was the miracle cure for school funding?

are you people really that naive to think that the state government doesn't take funds and direct them as they please?

this state is notorious for not being able to balance a budget

2/8/2007 4:02:29 PM

Quote :

"then they decide "oh wait, it's gonna cost a whole lot more than we thought, we need 2x what we thought" and start trying to raise more tax funds nope, nothing fishy here"

This isn't a problem specific to NC. Just about any and every project run anywhere, no matter what it is, both public or private runs over budget.

Where are you suggesting this money is going?

Quote :

"remember when the lottery was the miracle cure for school funding?"

I am perplexed by this a little. Though, the lottery is for the entire state. The bond referendums you are referring to are for Wake County, which is one of the fastest growing in the country. It is definitely conceivable to me that a lot more money is needed here than can be gotten out via the state lottery income.

Those same people that are requesting all these extra funds for the schools are also the same people proposing more and more year round schooling to help alleviate the problem. Most parents balk at this. Building new, high tech schools isn't cheap. Living in an area with affordable housing, high quality of life, and good schools doesn't come cheap...and people whining about this need to move to virtually anywhere else and see how much they enjoy the "cheap" housing and "great" schools wherever that might be.

2/8/2007 4:12:50 PM

Quote :

"remember when the lottery was the miracle cure for school funding?"

its not going well because you cant even win the fucking scratch cards so people arent buying them

anyway, back to the issue at hand.

Interstate highway funding IIRC is 90%federal 10%state, im not sure if this applies to beltways though, but if we were to build I-95 today instead of however long ago, it would be a 90/10 ratio.

also, there is a law saying you CANNOT put tolls on a segment of existing interstate which was paid for with federal funds and a parallel free alternative. The loophole is that the government is doing an experimental/pilot program which is allowing 3 interstates in the country to throw those rules out the window, and I think NC wants in with 95.

they have been talking about this shit for over 8 years now though, its more than likely not going to happen

2/8/2007 5:24:22 PM

Hmmm,... I like the idea of these toll roads. Lets make people pay for what they use regardless of the taxes they've paid or not paid previously. Lets not stop with roads, lets apply this principle to emergency medical services, food stamp programs, medicaid, and everything else that people suck from the government teat. If they can't pay it right away they should have to later...

I hope the democrats raise taxes her in NC even more, I hope the waist even more money next year, maybe the stupid population will wake up some day and stop electing democrats just because there family "always voted democrat".

2/8/2007 8:57:14 PM

As somebody who lives on the VA border and travels 95 frequently for work, crossing the border into southside VA, I think that this idea would blow ass. Here's why:

1) It was paid for with federal funding. Is the state splitting the tolls 90/10 with the Fed? I doubt it. Next thing you know, VA would be taxing at the borders, SC would be, etc. etc.

2) Tourism in the area is really starting to work. This is one major detractor to tourism in the State, esp. in the east with the beaches and shit.

3) The rural areas have been screwed for years by the DOT, giving a MUCH higher share of the money per capita to major cities and leaving us to rot. Bridges in my area had been falling apart. Once they were compelled to spend the money for everybody, and not just the people in the major cities where many of the legislators are from, then we started getting the roads fixed up and new bridges built.

4) If the road money is divided out equally now by the population size of the area, then if you want to fund more, you should pay for it. I pay my damn gas tax just like you. Do I get 18 lanes on my 30 mile commute in the mornings? Hell no. I got a damn two lane road that hasn't been repaved in spots for over 20 years.

5) If you install these tolls on 95, you will have a glut of people on 301 heading north and south, especially truckers. Folks will be cheap and especially if they do the toll at each border like has been most oft discussed, it is very easy to jump on 301 and cruise across the border, and then get back on in Roanoke Rapids, or down in Rocky Mount.

So rip 'em apart, just my 2 cents from the sticks.

2/8/2007 10:17:16 PM

Quote :

"Since they don't have enough money to pay for things, they have to get more money in some way, ie tolls on 540."

I think the issue that people are having is that they feel like the government already collects enough to pay for these things but always ends up short for things we really need because they waste excessive amounts of money on things we don't need. They don't feel like giving the government even more money because they feel like the extra money will also just get wasted and go toward other secondary, wasteful projects... which will put us right back in the situation where they are asking forcing us to pay them more revenue.

Quote :

"I've never read anything that has shown that the state took money out of either of the highway funds to pay for something non highway related."

And this is why the government can constantly get away with this cycle of taxing, wasteful spending, and levying more tax to cover their mistakes... people either aren't informed, people have short memories, or there is no system in place to hold the government accountable.

While not the best source, it's the only one I'll devote time on to find a few numbers:
http://tinyurl.com/39g2fr

Quote :

"For 17 years, the General Assembly has diverted more than $3.7 billion from this transportation revenue to non-transportation purposes. Once again this year, the North Carolina state budget was passed with hundreds of millions of dollars diverted from the Highway Trust Fund."

Sounds like 540 was paid for but they diverted the money to other things to me. If they have budget shortfalls in other areas raise the taxes to collect that money in those other areas.

^I thought your #1 reason would be the same as the #1 reason as to why people don't want a toll on 540. Namely "because I would have to end up paying the toll if they put it here."

[Edited on February 9, 2007 at 7:43 AM. Reason : -]

2/9/2007 7:42:40 AM

Quote :

"I think the issue that people are having is that they feel like the government already collects enough to pay for these things but always ends up short for things we really need because they waste excessive amounts of money on things we don't need."

It's easy to feel that way, but what would you cut? I bet people outside of the Triangle think 540 is a waste of money.

Quote :

"Sounds like 540 was paid for but they diverted the money to other things to me. If they have budget shortfalls in other areas raise the taxes to collect that money in those other areas."

The diverted money was sales tax paid on cars. The intention has always been to split this money between the general fund (where all other sales tax goes) and the highway trust fund. Using the word divert is intentional misleading. Vehicle sales taxes aren't the god given right to transportation funding. All they have done is changed how much is allocated where.

It's arguable whether shifting these funds is bad policy, but to assert that "we've paid for 540" is ridiculous. Politically, if your choice is to adjust allocation formulas or raise taxes, you're going to do the former every time.

[Edited on February 9, 2007 at 8:34 AM. Reason : ?]

2/9/2007 8:33:31 AM

Quote :

"The diverted money was sales tax paid on cars."

I haven't seen the figures. Have you got any?

2/9/2007 8:44:47 AM

Quote :

"The rural areas have been screwed for years by the DOT, giving a MUCH higher share of the money per capita to major cities and leaving us to rot. Bridges in my area had been falling apart. Once they were compelled to spend the money for everybody, and not just the people in the major cities where many of the legislators are from, then we started getting the roads fixed up and new bridges built."

This is exactly why our taxes on gas are so high in the first place. It makes more since to me to spend 10 million dollars on a given stretch of road that tons of people need and are going to use than on some road in rural NC that 1/50th the number of people might use.

2/9/2007 9:07:12 AM

Quote :

"I haven't seen the figures. Have you got any?"

Yea, last post on page 1.

2/9/2007 9:20:12 AM

^^I did mention it was based on population. I am not saying I need some 800 lane road through the country to get to work. Just keep the bitch from getting to be a potholed nightmare.

I have no problem with them spending 10x more in that area, as long as the population size is warranted. But when they completely fucking ignore areas like Halifax County and spend 40 to 50x as much in Wake County when it only has 10 times as many people, then its wrong. I pay just as much as you do, and should be able to get the same fucking quality of service as you. Or are people that live in smaller to midsize towns not as good as urbanites such as yourself?

[Edited on February 9, 2007 at 9:22 AM. Reason : ]

2/9/2007 9:21:29 AM

Can you produce any number which backs up the claim you just made?

I drove through a good bit of Halifax County to Scotland Neck over xmas, and I don't remember thinking to myself "holy shit, the roads around here are horrible, this is an atrocity".

2/9/2007 9:26:39 AM

Naw, they aren't now. Your exactly right. After the complaints brought a few years ago about inequal spending, they spent money repaving 125 where it needed it most and other places in rural eastern NC.

I'm happy with how things are. I just don't like the line of reasoning that says that screw rural areas, it must all be centered on the major cities. You made a choice to live there just like I made a choice to live in rural areas. Hell, I plan to move to Wake County in a couple of years, but as somebody that used to work around rural VA, I HATED how they barely even paved a full lane on each side in the rural locations. Just thought this was completely ridiculous, and quite dangerous as well.

BTW, I'm at work, so I don't have time researching the redistributing of state highway money that went down a couple years back. Maybe later. Sorry.

[Edited on February 9, 2007 at 10:50 AM. Reason : ]

2/9/2007 10:49:29 AM

Apropos the original topic, tolls on I-95 make more sense than tolls on 540.

2/9/2007 8:52:39 PM

Only if you don't understand how any of this works.

2/9/2007 10:59:11 PM

^^NC only paid for 10% of I-95. 90% came from the fed, which means those Yankees and truck drivers paid just as much for it as you did.

However NC shoulders the burden for all of the 540 construction. See the problem? They are tolling something they paid almost nothing on. The DOT money isn't going to working on 95, its for all those gigantic roads in fucking Wake County and all the little ass country roads in the rest of the state.

2/10/2007 9:25:33 AM

Yea...and those gigantic roads they build are already slammed with people on them, what else would you have NC do? People like the area and want to live here, it's pretty clear the triangle still needs the investment in infrastructure.

If you want to have access to all the amenities that we get here, move here. I think it's absurd to demand top notch roads in bfe. Hell, I drove Avent Ferry in Holly Springs to Harris Lake yesterday for an mtb ride, and that road was a horrible pot holed mess. But you know what, it's not a big deal for me to slow down 5mph and just dodge all of them. I wouldn't expect 30 million of my tax dollars to go to repaving that road for the few people that happen to take that route to work each day.

2/10/2007 11:25:13 AM

Quote :

"People like the area and want to live here, it's pretty clear the triangle still needs the investment in infrastructure."

Then people should be willing to pony up more for more roads, in that area. The most targetted way to do this is with toll roads in that area.

2/10/2007 11:28:09 AM

I agree with you completely.

I always thought the whole "evacuation route" excuse was kind of a hokey reason for building 540 down to 55 here in HSP/Apex (or any road for that matter), but after it taking me 25 minutes some mornings to go what normally takes about 3-4, I can imagine the hysteria if there is a nuke plant issue and massive amounts of people have to take that route out of here.

2/10/2007 12:49:00 PM

^what the hell were they thinking building the nuke plant down there, sure raleigh was less populated then, but its to the SW of raleigh, the prevailing wind direction for raleigh is from the southwest, if it blew up the fallout would probably come upwind to here

2/11/2007 1:27:59 AM

will never happen. Wake county is too powerful in the legislature to allow this to happen.

2/11/2007 2:08:16 AM