every branch (including the marines as of feb 06) has special operations units which operate collectively under USSOCOM

4/14/2007 1:40:43 PM

so fuck him alot these few weeks, you will probably never get to again......

4/14/2007 1:45:58 PM

^^^Right: "Delta" is short for Special Operations Team Delta as opposed to the publicly known Green Berets, who are Special Operations Team Alpha (SOTA for short). Either way, they're ALL Army green berets. Maybe weren't before, but they are now!

(afaik)

4/14/2007 5:46:05 PM

^ I've seen a couple go to Delta tryouts and never return from the 75th. I know they didn't complete the Q course so I'm not sure they are ever "awarded" the green beret. I know a former rock that went back to regiment to get his 20 as a SNCO but he never completed the training that sorta defines the 18s. They might be now for all I know though, much has changed.

4/14/2007 5:59:33 PM

Yeah Im reasonably certain that Delta guys dont have to go through Q and they have their own version of SFAS. I suppose that they are considered SF hence the name Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta (SFOD-D).

4/14/2007 6:37:12 PM

I guess I'll have to defer as I got out in 89 - I do hate to see AF (they were called SF when I was in) disprespected. And I think what you consider "attached" and what I do are pretty much the same thing with terminology differences. My training lasted 18 months and when I was attached to other units as support they called me a "shake and bake" commando do to that "short" training period (I was not a PJ). I would, however love to talk sometime because you know more than most. As to the history of Special Forces in the air force I will stick to my guns - back as far as the 377th Security Police Ranger Squadron that retook the Pueblo after it's capture. I did however mistake the Ready Merlin team - they activated in 1982 not 89 and they are considered Special Forces. One other resource you might check out is Janes definitions and listings of the elite forces. So to head off your argument yes I support that the term Special Forces is technically army though most people use it interchangeably - let's refer then to them as Elite Forces. And I was around for the formation of JSSOC - at least initially Delta took other service elitists. (no I'm not claiming to have been one). Either way, to the initial question, if your friend truly wants the job - and is reasonably athletic he'll get in - and it's a high calling.

4/15/2007 1:10:04 PM

Quote :

"I do hate to see AF (they were called SF when I was in) disprespected"

I hope that my post did not leave that impression. I have done nothing but defend the PJs and their standards in this post. They get far too little praise, although thats not always such a bad thing. Those that have seen them work understand their level of dedication and physical ability.

Quote :

"So to head off your argument yes I support that the term Special Forces is technically army though most people use it interchangeably"

No disagreement there, although that still doesn't make it correct. You will not find people using the term interchangeably if they were ever under USASOC.

Quote :

"Is pararescue dangerous? All I know is they jump out of planes and stuff."

Yes, they get put into the shit its that simple.

http://www.pjsinnam.com/War_on_Terror/PDF_Docs/AF%20Times%20Cunningham.pdf

The CCT and PJ were both KIA and have since been awarded the AF cross. The third AF member on the ground was awarded the SS and purple heart. You will never hear me talk negative about the AFSOC!

4/15/2007 5:00:57 PM

thank you for that article

4/15/2007 8:04:54 PM

Ok, since we're clarifying posts, I will of course stand up for anyone who's served in the military ('cept maybe Coasties... just kidding!) if someone questions their dedication or heart. To sign on the dotted line takes more balls than most people on this country have so if you've done it you have my respect.

And of course I realize in the military there are tons of different units with different missions. There are some more demanding than others, but it takes all of us to make the machine work. All the branch versus branch stuff is just for fun. Yeah, the AF used to take PT tests on a bike but without them we couldn't bomb the shit out of people nearly as easily without them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChsFcziajEE

See, the Air Force even helps the Army!

4/16/2007 12:53:30 AM

Yeah the air force does occassionally help the army - we used to even soetimes let them go to our schools (JK). JSSOC was new when I left as was the term "Operator" - I never heard of usasoc back then but the CCT that went down in Mog (I won't place his name here - those of us that knew him know him) was a good friend so I thank you for the respect and will now bow out.

4/17/2007 1:06:56 PM

the USS Pueblo was never retaken...it's a tourist attraction in North Korea

4/17/2007 5:07:19 PM

After Basic, there's a 10 week indoc which must be completed before begining the roughly 2 years of training it takes to become a PJ. Thats actually a lot more training (timewise) than I had to do to become a Recon Marine. After Basic and SI, it only took about a year to for me complete all the training as I recall.

4/18/2007 12:33:12 AM

I'd imagine thats alot more time commitment training than most...they have to become certified EMTs

[Edited on April 18, 2007 at 12:40 AM. Reason : a]

4/18/2007 12:39:59 AM

^^^^strangely enough i was at drill this weekend and a bunch of the older NCOs were hanging around talking about all the guys THEY knew from there too!

4/18/2007 12:43:28 AM

Delta is a topic that people who know about don't talk about and people who don't, do.

4/19/2007 8:27:02 PM

Oh and GK, did you get out before the SOCM program?

4/19/2007 10:11:59 PM

^^Used to be that way, especially 10-20 years ago when they "didn't exist".

4/20/2007 12:24:06 PM

Just saying, there's some misinformation on this thread. But it's better that way.


One of the operators I worked with was a fucking nurse before he was there. I always thought that shit was hilarious.

4/20/2007 6:37:38 PM

Was his name Gay Focker???

4/20/2007 11:42:12 PM

air force special ops, whatever you call them, its based in the panhandle of FL. Hurlburt field is the name. they do cool stuff there. according to their website, they are special ops.

http://www2.hurlburt.af.mil/

[Edited on April 20, 2007 at 11:47 PM. Reason : ]

4/20/2007 11:44:25 PM

thanks for all the info guys, even though i don't understand what half of you are talking about.

4/20/2007 11:48:30 PM

^^That's not in dispute. The point is spec ops != special forces

special forces is the green berets, a subset of special operations. i forgot the cool compsci symbol for subset, sorry!

4/20/2007 11:52:07 PM

I always thought it was funny how the other branches made fun of PJs except for when one of their crappy pilots goes down

4/21/2007 10:44:04 AM

^The only people that I have ever heard speaking negatively about PJs are those they have never worked with them. They are well respected throughout the community. Although, when your distinguishing feature is a tattoo on the ass one does start to wonder.

4/21/2007 12:33:58 PM

Quote :

"One of the operators I worked with was a fucking nurse before he was there. I always thought that shit was hilarious."

There is currently a chaplain that is much the same. Has CIB, Silver Star, SF and Ranger Tabs, Master Parachutist Badge, and a SF Combat patch. He "found god" after he sent many to him .

4/21/2007 1:02:21 PM

Quote :

"I always thought it was funny how the other branches made fun of PJs except for when one of their crappy pilots goes down"

don't say stupid things like that. its just not true. i have never heard any other pilots make fun of the PJ's, when a bird goes down, it doesn't matter which service comes to help. i have likewise never heard anybody say anything bad about the PJ's

[Edited on April 21, 2007 at 7:16 PM. Reason : ;]

4/21/2007 7:16:01 PM

Was this chaplain ever an RI?

4/24/2007 1:52:49 PM

Quote :

"I always thought it was funny how the other branches made fun of PJs except for when one of their crappy pilots goes down"

i've never heard anyone make fun of the PJs.

I'm no expert on them, but I have a hard time believing they are trained as hard as, say, SEALs, Force Recon, or SF...but they are certainly some hard charging sons of bitches.


^^ yeah, like the Marines going to grab O'Grady when he got shot down.

4/24/2007 2:00:26 PM

PJs mid jump, note the SAGE EBR m14

4/24/2007 2:44:30 PM

Quote :

"Was this chaplain ever an RI?"

Nope

Quote :

"I'm no expert on them, but I have a hard time believing they are trained as hard as, say, SEALs, Force Recon, or SF...but they are certainly some hard charging sons of bitches."

Guess it depends on your definition of hard. Look at the last round of CRO selections to BEGIN the training. You aren't going to find better averges anywhere in the military.

Pull-Up Average 18 Best 23
Sit-Up Average 86 Best 96
Push-Up Average 80 Best100
3m Run Average 18:36 Best 17:13
1500m Swim Average 23:06 Best 21:05

I've always heard the water confidence training for a PJ is much more challenging than anything found in BUDS, which is kinda surprising. At the same time their "hell week" is about 36 hours shorter and the general ground work is less demanding.

4/24/2007 3:24:30 PM

those first three things ain't shit. I could match the averages right now, and back when I was in shape, I could've beaten the "best" on all 3.

the 3 mile run times are a little better than I've ever managed, but nothing crazy by any means.

I don't really know what I could do on a 1500 swim...I've swam a mile before (which is slightly longer), but it was in a flight suit, and I wasn't really trying to hurry (took about twice that long, I think). That sounds fairly quick, but I don't really know.

I'm really not trying to hate on them or take anything away from them, but I'm not really wowed by those numbers, and those numbers have nothing to do with their training, anyway (which I admittedly am no expert on).

[Edited on April 24, 2007 at 3:40 PM. Reason : asdfasd]

4/24/2007 3:36:22 PM

You're not impressed by a 6:10 mile average? You couldn't do that with 3 months worth of solid training and puking your guts out at the end of it.

Hell, I'm not a runner, thats for sure, and I manged a 7:20 mile after a 1.3k swim and 20k bike, and a 6:10 mile for 3 is still a little bit out of my range at the moment and certainly impressive to me.

Heck, the 1500m swim average is damn good. But with such a narrow gap between the averages and best, I gotta ask what the sample size was, 10?

These are the results for an Oly distance triathlon which includes a 1.5k swim (click swim rank to sort)
http://www.setupevents.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=event_results&id=181&orderby=Rank
and you'll see the top 10 swim average is about 22:30. And these elite tri guys are fit as fuck, so it's impressive as hell for me to see these swim and run times.

Here is another event with a 5k
http://www.setupevents.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=event_results&id=258&orderby=Rank12
where the run average is about 17:40.

4/24/2007 4:39:53 PM

Duke, don't take this the wrong way but each of those men would have put you to shame even when you were in shape. No two scores are overly impressive, its the overall level of fitness. They run like fucking antelopes and push earth like meatheads. The events are also back-to-back, much like your PFT. You will not find better averages at the beginning of BUD/S, force recon, SFAS, or RIP. Most of the community will have similar stats for those that completed their choosen program.

Yes, 10 of 20 were selected at the end of phase 2 to begin the officer pipeline. Now they have 18 months until they become CRO.

4/24/2007 6:07:09 PM

ok, running all of that back to back is different deal.

although i don't know that they would've "put me to shame" when i was really in shape.



^^ sure, a 6:10 average is good...i'm just saying that when I first started in the USMC, I was running 3 miles at a 6:40 average, benchpressing 10 lbs shy of double my weight, and doing 27 dead hang pull ups. Even after I got "out of shape" in flight school, I could still do 100 push ups no sweat, and I'm sure I'd be in the mix on sit-ups (I max out the USMC crunch test in 1 minute, when we have 2 minutes allotted).

I'm not saying you wouldn't have to be in wicked shape to put up those numbers...I'm just saying that I'm not "wowed" by them because (a) I know they're quite attainable, because I've pretty much been there, and (b) i'd be disappointed if people heading into any elite unit COULDN'T do that stuff. I'm not saying they suck--I'm just saying "well no shit, they oughta be in good shape."

4/24/2007 10:50:11 PM

Quote :

"although i don't know that they would've "put me to shame" when i was really in shape."

Yeah, I can't really stand by that comment either . Its not like you big fuckers never make it through, though it isn't as common as people think.

4/24/2007 11:21:23 PM

my friend left today for basic training

i hope during his two years of training our new pres. will get all the troops outta these dangerous places

4/24/2007 11:42:51 PM

Quote :

"Even after I got "out of shape" in flight school"

hey duke, what do you fly?? and when did you finish flight school??

4/24/2007 11:47:48 PM

Quote :

"my friend left today for basic training "

Best of luck to him. If he is up to the standards I posted he should get out of shape going through AF basic.




^
http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=455754

Duke, you still plan on being a FAC? Not sure how it is now but CAS was getting a ton a funding about 5-7 years ago. All kinds of highspeed shit was being purchased. Least thats what I heard from the AF romads, Marines might be a different beast.

4/25/2007 12:00:19 AM

is AF basic training that easy? i hope he doesn't get too out of shape all he did for months before he left was swim.

4/25/2007 12:24:43 AM

I never went through lackland. I heard the physical standards were laughable, but keep in mind this is coming from CCT/PJs that had already completed AST.

4/25/2007 12:45:54 AM

^I'm headed to Navy basic in January, then BUD/S and getting out of shape at Great Lakes is exactly what I'm worried about. At least the Navy has a dive motivator program where all the SEAL/SWCC/EOD guys at basic can get up a couple hours earlier than everyone else and meet up with Naval Special Warfare mentors to workout.

[Edited on April 25, 2007 at 12:54 AM. Reason : .]

4/25/2007 12:53:42 AM

^that's awesome. too bad the army doesn't have anything like that in basic...

4/25/2007 1:07:32 AM

Quote :

"Its not like you big fuckers never make it through, though it isn't as common as people think. "

haha, i'm not that big...5'8" and 190 (which is about 5-10 lbs more than I really should weight)

Quote :

"hey duke, what do you fly?? and when did you finish flight school??"

Prowlers; about a month ago

Quote :

"Duke, you still plan on being a FAC?"

yeah. higher priority is to switch from navigator/ECMO to pilot, but I want to do both. I think it'll be pretty doable.

[Edited on April 25, 2007 at 8:20 AM. Reason : asfd]

[Edited on April 25, 2007 at 8:21 AM. Reason : asddaf]

4/25/2007 8:19:25 AM

Quote :

"5'8" and 190"

I think that is actually too big to enlist in the AF .

4/25/2007 8:37:39 AM

it's too "fat" for the USMC, too (i think my max weight for my height is like 174 or something), but they tape me and declare me "not a fatass".

actually, usually they don't even tape me...they just look at me and say "you're clearly not fat" and write my weight down as 174 or whatever.

i remember one time right before i got commissioned (when i was in peak condition), they wanted pictures of me in PT gear to make sure I wasn't fat...I found a size "medium" t-shirt and shorts and sent in the pictures, haha. never heard any more mention of a weight problem.

4/25/2007 1:19:05 PM

Quote :

"i hope during his two years of training our new pres. will get all the troops outta these dangerous places"

I sure that is the exact opposite of what he hopes.

4/25/2007 2:23:09 PM

of course....he wants to be a hero and everything.

4/25/2007 3:47:20 PM

^^That's awesome. Too bad the Army is still being bastards about it. How'd you manage to keep both ends of the spectrum: 6-something miles AND a great bench?

4/26/2007 1:44:21 AM

so i want to send my friend a letter. where do i send it? just his name and lackland air force base?

5/1/2007 12:45:39 AM

Nope, it'll get lost. You'll need his complete address (which is synonymous with unit in the Army)

In basic my addy was:
PFC Dento
4th Platoon
B Btry, 1/79th FA
Fort Sill OK, xxxxx

5/1/2007 1:42:24 AM