I meant the proverbial you.

As in TIME's man of the year.

Sorry for the confusion.

I said this after the Columbine shootings and I'll say it now. While I don't condone his actions, I do sympathize with him. "Weirdo" kids in highschool have the most miserable lives. Some turn their depression inward and kill themselves, and that makes them a little blurb in the back of the yearbook. I remember when a popular girl committed suicide at our school, it was like time fucking stopped that day. And then a few months later a dorky goth kid killed himself, and no one cared. And then some turn their depression outward into anger and hate, and that's when the school shootings happen. I never shot anyone at my school, of course, mainly because I am too much of a pussy to try some stunt like that, but I'll be damned if there weren't some people there that if I had the opportunity to try and save them from a burning building, I would just walk away. People can be truly evil in highschool and get away with it.

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 2:30 PM. Reason : ]

4/19/2007 2:27:07 PM

well, the proverbial YOU may be true. And that is often the clique culture of todays schools which no doubt plays a role in this. but again, the marginalization they feel may not be real it may be in their heads only.

4/19/2007 2:29:46 PM

This kid was definitely "marginalized"

4/19/2007 2:34:05 PM

The same thing happened after Columbine. Video games were blamed, parents were blamed, but no one blamed the "precious" students who made their lives miserable each day.

If you poke a fucking dog with a stick over and over in a cage and then open the door, don't cry when it rips your face off.

4/19/2007 2:40:25 PM

^^^^ While I understand where you're coming from... Have you looked more in-depth into the Columbine investigations after the fact? They weren't a couple of outsiders with no friends...

More like, one sociopath with one easy follower.

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 2:41 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2007 2:41:10 PM

^No, I could be wrong on that fact. I just wish popular people could walk a mile in the shoes of a social outcast. Maybe there would be less school violence then.

4/19/2007 2:43:25 PM

^ We are 100% in agreement on that. The solution isn't banning guns, and it isn't just "parents paying more attention" either.

4/19/2007 2:45:10 PM

Yeah, I just wish people weren't so mean

4/19/2007 2:45:44 PM

This is why I support public school uniforms.

4/19/2007 2:47:10 PM

Quote :

"While I understand where you're coming from... Have you looked more in-depth into the Columbine investigations after the fact? They weren't a couple of outsiders with no friends..."

i believe i stated quite clearly in my original post on page 1 that many school massacre killers are popular in their own social circles. the marginalization they may feel is either real or perceived, even if they are popular in their own group they may still resent the popular group if their group is considered "freaks" or "outsiders". or, in the case of mitchell johnson, he was actually quite popular and well liked by girls in his middle school yet he FELT like he wasnt. so its not always clear cut. even if the marginalization is small or even if it is their own choice, they still resent the SYSTEM of the school (cliques, athletics, parties, popular people etc) and therefore the school itself is the target. the mental illness factor will often magnify the marginalization and make them more prone to this kind of thing. combine that with the desire to be remembered as an anti-hero who fought back against the big fish and boom, you have the making of a potential killer. granted this is over simplified but you get the idea.

4/19/2007 2:49:55 PM

Quote :

"I just wish popular people could walk a mile in the shoes of a social outcast."

My, aren't we bitter.

I was a social outcast of sorts in HS, but because the "popular" kids in my school were redneck meth junkies, I didn't let their scorn bother me much.

You don't seem to have a lot of regard for popular kids, so why do they bother you so?

4/19/2007 3:07:38 PM

I was pretty much an outcast in high school as well. My solution was to simply adapt; I learned to embrace solitude, and to pretty much just not even take interest in what the "popular" kids were doing. They didn't invite me to do shit, and I never asked to be invited. Of course, I've always been happier by myself for as far back as I can remember, so it was pretty easy for me. Which is not to say that I never felt peer pressure or that other people's opinion of me didn't always matter, but I learned to just largely not care.

4/19/2007 3:16:59 PM

^^ clearly you never went to a school in cary.

4/19/2007 3:29:15 PM

^^ i hope someone is keeping an eye on this kid. he might be the next to go crazy.

4/19/2007 3:31:33 PM

we've agreed that when people feel marginalised, persecuted, and outcasted to the point of frustration, you get violent reactions.

this will never go away in terms of one off events where individuals flip out and go Holden Caufield with firearms or explosives.

i apologise in advance for the soapbox remix that is about to ensue, but we can atleast hope that we minimise this on a macro scale.

we defeated modern era facism, have effectively brought communism to an end, and we will soon bring religious facism to a grinding halt.

all of these phenomenon were violent reactions to a world order that was/is allm, "i don't give a shit about you as long as i can drive my suv to get another latte".

don't get me wrong -- this isn't an anticapitalist rant -- you can search through my posts in the lounge for verification.

what i am saying is, we as a species cannot defeat cancer by only removing the tumors -- the cancer will recur. nor can we simply cut off the geneaologies prone to cancer -- genetic bottleneck will ensure the cancer will recur in a worse form with an even weaker immunological response.

what we must do is change our nutrition, lifestyle, and detect tumors early to minimise mortality, until the right targeted therapeutics emerge from research. this takes a lot of discipline, foresight, and fortitude.

the analogies probably sound dumb, but its been a long day and i'm not probablyly going to revisit this thread...

to summarise in a few sentences:
-if you let them eat cake, your head will end up on a chopping block.
-take care of the have nots, and you take care of yourself.
-afterall--the meek shall inherit the earth--it was written.

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 3:53 PM. Reason : sentences]

4/19/2007 3:49:29 PM

“mental illness factor will often magnify the marginalization”

Perhaps it is the mental illness that causes the initial feelings of marginalization.

4/19/2007 4:10:48 PM

Quote :

"we've agreed that when people feel marginalised, persecuted, and outcasted to the point of frustration, you get violent reactions."

yes but there are other factors that contribute to the violence. most people who feel this way dont act out violently, there is more to it, mental illness being one of them

4/19/2007 4:11:20 PM

I guess personal responsibility is passe.

There's always someone ELSE to blame.

4/19/2007 4:20:22 PM

oh im all for personal responsibility, the ultimate decision comes down to personal responsibility. im just looking at the psych and criminology reasons that can lead a person to this. i am a firm believer that the final blame rests on them and there is no excuse no matter how angry you are at things

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 4:30 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2007 4:30:22 PM

ah, my comment wasn't really directed at you, just at people like God who blame "popular people"

4/19/2007 4:33:34 PM

ok i'm back for a few minutes...

i've been pretty speechless about this for a couple of days, and i have no clue how to thwart individual incidences like this.

i really have no answers.

all i'm saying is that i am a strong advocate of preventitive medicine.

i am also a huge fan of the golden rule. thanks to my ubringing and life experiences, i know that my kids won't be either bullies or the bullied.

if you ignore the people with the mental illness, they WILL come back with loaded firearms.

if not with firearms, then with some other form of epidemiology that spreads to other people/groups.

but hey, there's something else on tv right now. so i guess all this is someone elses problem until that goth kid shoots up your child's classroom.

4/19/2007 4:40:48 PM

Republican18: My comments weren't directed directly to you, but I'm definitely feeling what you're saying. We're able to say with clarity "he was more popular than I was because he had X girlfriends or X friends or whatever..." but feeling disenfranchised doesn't lend itself to being programmed, categorized or easily referenced.

4/19/2007 4:57:21 PM

Quote :

"ah, my comment wasn't really directed at you, just at people like God who blame "popular people""

so are you saying the kid was born a cold blooded killer, and that there were no external factors that contributed to his development?

4/19/2007 5:21:56 PM

Are you saying that this kid was born an outcast loser and that there were no internal factors which contributed to his social marginalization?

4/19/2007 5:27:38 PM

A classic nature vs nurture argument. Who knows? Maybe both are a factor...

4/19/2007 5:31:36 PM

obviously both are a factor

4/19/2007 5:36:06 PM

Surveillance devices are going to get so small that'll be easy to put them everywhere. With AIs to sift through the data, it should be much easier to stop this kind of thing in the future.

Also, advances in medical technology could make bullet wounds a joke.

4/19/2007 5:43:43 PM

the science of killing people has always been one step ahead of the science of saving them

4/19/2007 5:47:30 PM

http://www.wral.com/news/national_world/national/story/1280691/

4/19/2007 7:08:56 PM

Quote :

"the science of killing people has always been one step ahead of the science of saving them"

That doesn't mean that will always be true.

There's no doubt, though, that offensive technology will also improve.

4/19/2007 7:21:02 PM

the science of killing people is the same science that advances saving us. We just develope it first to kill people, its the underlying motive for technology.

4/19/2007 9:25:01 PM

But there's only so far for firearm technology to go. Exploding bullets would cause more severe wounds. They might become more common. You could make guns aim automatically.

4/19/2007 9:53:26 PM

Ok, I know that school shootings have been going on for awhile that is why I mentioned the one in Texas in the 60s with the guy on the clocktower or whatnot...but in the whole grand scheme of things the past 40-50 years is relatively recent. And my question still remains what has happened in this timeframe that makes it ok or almost second nature to people to think to do something like this. So I still pose my same question...Why is it happening now? I mean I might just not know of any before the 60s or maybe it was because information wasn't as prevalent as it is today at the touch of a button. I still don't understand what goes through someone's head to make them think this is ok. I mean he wasn't the only kid who got picked on in school and maybe if he ever took the time to actually speak back when spoken to people wouldn't think he was that odd. There are kids that goto school and get picked on and turn out just fine. Kids picking on other kids is just what happens and no it isn't right but it happens. But to me going from being picked on to killing 30+ people is a leap and a big one at that. So again why now? What has gone so terribly wrong to make kids/people think this is the way out?

4/19/2007 10:58:17 PM

its not just the picking on or marginalization, its other factors. a huge one being the mental illness correlation. other things multiply the marginalization and lead them to it. ell it may be the level to which they feel outcasted or picked on, or the severity, or the desire they have to fit in and cant, or a resentment of the people that do. take certain factors and mix them together in a way and they may explode. the common denominator between those who go violent and those who dont is often mental illness. but again there is no formula that is certain. there is no profile, only certain correlations. no one can say with certainty which mixture of elements casue some one to snap.

they are more common now because they are more common now. in their sick minds this is the way to solve things and go out on top. its like dueling back in the day was an acceptable way of solving a problem, this is now acceptable to them. the culture script of a school massacre is here

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 11:14 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2007 11:10:22 PM

Now this is interesting.

Quote :

"Here are three clues to what contributes to the attitude of a killer--chillingly, illustrated in the aftermath of the disaster. The killer's roommate: "If I was told before he was depressed or suicidal, I definitely would have kept an eye open ... I definitely would have tried harder to be his friend or know a little bit better." Dr. Hurd: You can't be friends with a nihilist hell-bent on destruction. Evil is not the same as emotional conflict. If you still don't understand this in the aftermath of the tragedy, then you're never going to understand it; and the way is paved for another one, and another one after that. Killers flourish in a psychological atmosphere where their potential victims think like this. This man didn't need counseling, and never would have benefited from it. He needed to be stopped, back when he was stalking women and making threats, and otherwise violating the individual rights of those on a campus. The killer's creative writing teacher: "He was so distant and so lonely," she told ABC's "Good Morning America" Wednesday. "It was almost like talking to a hole, as though he wasn't there most of the time. He wore sunglasses and his hat very low so it was hard to see his face." Dr. Hurd: Many people are lonely. They can't find people with whom to connect; they can't find people on their "wave length," if you will--that is, people who share their philosophy or sense-of-life. Yet they want this connection, and they generally seek it out. Cho didn't want it or need it. He only wanted and needed to destroy. Don't try to understand it; it's too irrational and sick to contemplate. But, at the same time, don't try to relate it to the realm of the reasonable, either. The killer's poetry teacher: "I know we're talking about a youngster, but troubled youngsters get drunk and jump off buildings," she said. "There was something mean about this boy. It was the meanness — I've taught troubled youngsters and crazy people — it was the meanness that bothered me. It was a really mean streak." Dr. Hurd: Come on, professor. You can say it. Go ahead, I dare you. Say it. He was EVIL. He was BAD. He was not quantitatively different from your average, stressed out college student...he was qualitatively different. He acted with choice, no less so than the 9/11 killers, the Columbine killers, or the Oklahoma City killers. It's not mental pain or anguish. It's hatred and evil. If you want to avenge the death of these innocent students, then speak out against political correctness. Better yet, just stop being politically correct. When and if you encounter people doing bad things, name it aloud. Call things what they are, in issues great and small. Change the psychological and intellectual atmosphere in which we live, and you’ll see far fewer tragedies like this one."

http://ruleofreason.blogspot.com/2007/04/killers-clues.htm

4/20/2007 2:02:25 AM

What I find interesting is this:

Quote :

"Once, in English class, the teacher had the students read aloud, and when it was Cho's turn, he just looked down in silence, Davids recalled. Finally, after the teacher threatened him with an F for participation, Cho started to read in a strange, deep voice that sounded "like he had something in his mouth," Davids said. "As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, 'Go back to China,'" Davids said. "

Not to sound like I'm justifying the killer's actions... that could be an exaggerated account of what really happened, but still, you'd expect to hear comments like that in an elementary school classroom, not a college one. And he's not even from China.

[Edited on April 20, 2007 at 9:00 AM. Reason : asdf]

4/20/2007 8:39:25 AM

I don't think anyone disagrees that he was not treated well and that such mistreatment was wrong.

But there are those who think that his actions were justified because of that.

Those people are idiots.

4/20/2007 8:43:06 AM

^^ That didn't happen in college.

4/20/2007 9:35:02 AM

It's still immature...whether it's in high school or college.

4/20/2007 11:42:53 AM

I didn't read it but let me summarize

There will always be crazy people

4/20/2007 12:35:03 PM

Quote :

"And he's not even from China."

Actually from what I have heard reported...going off the media so I don't know that it is true. But that they did come to the US from China but originally lived in South Korea.

4/20/2007 8:55:04 PM

My Story

Being a male of asian decent (though I was born in California and know nothing about Asia and consider myself an American), I have been the recipient of MANY discriminatory and racial attacks. Both verbally and physically. ALL events involved other students in public school, mostly (not all) from caucasian or "white" background, and prior to college (college students tend to be a little more mature). I believe part of the "bullying" occurred because of my small stature and timid personality through my middle/high school years. I've noticed that after gaining some muscle mass and confidence, I received less attention. SO TAKE NOTE little scrawny guys. Go lift some weights and take public speaking courses

Until you walk in the shoes of a social outcast you will NEVER understand. I will give you a glimpse at what I had to go through in my past.

The Abuse
Verbal abuse came in so many forms. Most of them in racial form. Chinaman, chink, go back to China, etc... were common. Taunting was also very common. Verbal abuse actually hurt more than the physical abuse at times.

I think the physical abuse I took, came NOT from the fact that I was asian, but from the fact that I used to be a scrawny kid back in middle/high school. I was about 4'1" and 100 lbs in the 7th grade.

I remember one vivid event. I was sitting in 8th grade math class and while the teacher stepped out for a second, two kids grabbed me from behind and put me in a choke hold. Of course, being a smaller kid, I couldn't get out. I eventually passed out after a few seconds. I woke up from my blackout, dazed and confused. Of course, my next course of action was to cry, mostly because what they did hurt physically. They laugh and mock me. My teacher walks back in the class and sees me crying. He takes me out of class and talks to me about what happened. I explain. The results, the two students get detention.

This "bullying" happens on and off through high school. Being pushed. Getting my books knocked over. Kids stealing pencils/pens out of my bag. Punched in the back. Spit on. The list goes on. I tell the teachers, but they can only do so much. There are no signs of physical scars. Mostly emotional scars. After a few incidents, I get the feeling that the teachers don't really care anymore. Besides, there isn't much they can do without obvious evidence.

In high school, during PE courses, I was not allowed to play. Some people complain about being picked last. They've never had to deal with not being picked to play at all.

I was not a complete loner though. I had others who actually made efforts to befriend me. So, that eased a lot of heartache. But, the most important source of support came from my mother and her strong faith in God. My faith in God helped me out a lot. Realizing that this world is only temporary and being grateful for my life, no matter how hard it got, kept me persistant in overcoming this "evil". My mom knew she could only do so much for me. She didn't have the funds to pull me out of school and send me to some other school. Even then, there was no garauntee that I wouldn't get picked on.

A plus to having very few friends is that you have less time to play and more time to study. I eventually gave my best effort and made it to college. College has definately opened my mind to the world around me. I found more faith in God. Learned more about social skills. And gained an understanding of forgiveness.

NO, I'm not going to relapse and go out and shoot anyone. Though, I did have thoughts back in high school of hurting those kids as revenge. You can't imagine what goes through the mind of a bullied young kid. That's why when I see stuff like this happen in Virginia, I have slight compassion for the criminal. I absolutely hate his actions, they were brutal, evil, and he's pretty much going to hell for his sins. But I can't bear to imagine what would have happened if someone seriously loved the guy and actually gave him the attention that he was looking for. Who knows, he might have had a chance.

I have a beautiful wife. And a great job. About to purchase a home. And life is great. I owe it all to my mom and her constant encouragement and then to her faith in God. She taught me a lesson of love and strengthened my faith in God (none of the radical revenging jihad type of faith). May sound cheesy, but it's true. And it kept me sane through my middle/high school years.

Conclusion
The creator of the thread is correct. This will always keep happening. As long as "evil" exists, there is little you can do. It has nothing to do with video games, guns, or music. It has more to do with how we teach our kids about how they should treat others. And that's a lesson grown ups need to learn more than the kids do. Where do you think these kids get their bullying perspectives from? From the adults they see and imitate.

I believe they should implement programs in schools that teach both tolerance and social skills. It should be a required course, just like PE or something. That will be more valuable to the youth than all these extravagant sex ed. courses that our country is implementing. Honestly, sex ed. course made me think about sex more than it prevented me. Ironic.

4/20/2007 10:35:03 PM

thanks, and not to sound like an ass, but i really know what i am talking about on this subject. i have really really studied and researched it. i like to think this is one subject i can speak with some authority on

4/21/2007 12:28:32 AM

Stephen King's thoughts on this.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20036014,00.html

Quote :

"EDITORS' NOTE: In the wake of the Virginia Tech murders and subsequent reports that Cho Seung-Hui had raised alarms in the English department with his writing, we asked novelist and Entertainment Weekly contributing editor Stephen King for his thoughts on the links between the creative process and violence. Where, exactly, does one draw the line between imagination and disturbing expression that should raise red flags? I've thought about it, of course. Certainly in this sensitized day and age, my own college writing — including a short story called ''Cain Rose Up'' and the novel RAGE — would have raised red flags, and I'm certain someone would have tabbed me as mentally ill because of them, even though I interacted in class, never took pictures of girls' legs with my cell phone (in 1970, WHAT cell phones?), and never signed my work with a ?. As a teacher, I had one student — I will call him George — who raised red flags galore in my own mind: stories about flaying women alive, dismemberment, and, the capper, ''getting back at THEM.'' George was very quiet, and verbally inarticulate. It was only in his written work that he spewed these relentless scenes of gore and torture. His job was in the University Bookstore, and when I inquired about him once, I was told he was a good worker, but ''quiet.'' I thought, ''Whoa, if some kid is ever gonna blow, it'll be this one.'' He never did. But that was in the days before a gun-totin' serial killer could get top billing on the Nightly News and possibly the covers of national magazines. For most creative people, the imagination serves as an excretory channel for violence: We visualize what we will never actually do (James Patterson, for instance, a nice man who has all too often worked the street that my old friend George used to work). Cho doesn't strike me as in the least creative, however. Dude was crazy. Dude was, in the memorable phrasing of Nikki Giovanni, ''just mean.'' Essentially there's no story here, except for a paranoid a--hole who went DEFCON-1. He may have been inspired by Columbine, but only because he was too dim to think up such a scenario on his own. On the whole, I don't think you can pick these guys out based on their work, unless you look for violence unenlivened by any real talent."

4/21/2007 1:46:22 PM

Quote :

"On the whole, I don't think you can pick these guys out based on their work, unless you look for violence unenlivened by any real talent."

Ha. "I'm such a great writer, I can write about whatever I want."

If you say so, Stephen. Good luck objectively identifying "talent."

4/21/2007 2:16:00 PM

It's easier to completely write him off as a moron rather than to think of why he might have done what he did.

p.s. Steven King is the most talented writer in the history of the world.

4/21/2007 2:38:57 PM

Quote :

"Dude was crazy. "

"Dude" is not the type of vernacular that a great writer uses

especially not for an old dude like Stephen King

4/21/2007 3:19:19 PM

thats the sort of thing i am talking about when i say if you profile youd have way too many false positives

4/21/2007 5:24:44 PM

good job to xvang for sharing that intensely personal story.

it takes a lot of balls to admit that kind of pain.

i'm glad you obviously have the ability to deal with it effectively as an adult.

4/21/2007 8:17:15 PM

^






and i'll second that how you carry yourself has a HUGE impact on how other people treat you.

it's just tought to cross that bridge to thinking of yourself as an alpha dog (or at least not a victim) when being a social whipping boy is all you know. i'm sure being of small physical stature makes it even toughter.



an example of how the way you carry yourself makes such a difference...

One of my roommates in college was forever getting into altercations at bars, parties, you name it. He wasn't an aggressive or assholish guy in the least. He was also about 6'1" and medium build, leaning towards the athletic side (worked out some; had been a state champion or runner up or something wrestler in highschool, albeit in private school division). People just tended to fuck with him...not bullying, really, but just not really treating him with respect. Sometimes people would push those limits too far, and he'd get all kinds of pissed, and pretty soon, one of them would start a fight with the other.

I finally figured out that it was because he kinda slimed around, didn't carry himself with authority, and was kinda self-conscious about (a) people disrespecting him, and (b) the fact that he no-kidding did have some common sense issues...did all sorts of silly things that most people would instinctively never do, and was wholly unprepared for life on his own when he came to college...had to be taught to do all kinds of everyday activities.

Conversely, he always joked that I should have my own theme song, WWF style. He said that when I walked into a party or bar, he'd think of the chorus of "Hurricane" by Bob Dylan in his head. Oh, and by the way, I'm only about 5'8". At the time, I was in really shit-hot physical shape (weighed low 180s, could do 27 dead-hang pull ups and benchpress 350 lbs, and could run 3 miles in 20 minutes flat), but especially if I was wearing a jacket or something, you'd never know. He wasn't talking about that, anyway--he just meant that it was clear that when I walked into a room, it didn't matter whether or not I knew a single person there--I was the leader of the pack, at least as far as I was concerned. For that reason, coupled with the fact that I'm (a) actually really easy to get along with, and (b) wasn't hypersensitive about little stuff, simply because of my confidence, I almost never had a bit of trouble with anyone.

I specifically remember an apartment keg party we went to together. We only knew a couple of people there. We each had a cup in our hand, and just as we walked in, one of the hosts of the party said something to my buddy. I think he thought he was trying to cut in the beer line or something...I can't remember. At about the exact same time, some other guy who clearly knew most of the people there, but that I'd never even seen before, walks by me and says "Hey man, let me take that cup and fill it up for ya."

My buddy just looked at me like I had a dick on my forehead. I just shrugged my shoulders...haha



I was never really popular in any grade school, though. The only school school I went to for more than 2 years was middle school (for 3 years, of course). I was by no means a social outcast...I had friends, even a number of them in the "in" crowd (although due to my interests and activities, I had a lot more friends in the nerd/band/jock/gearhead crowds). I was certainly never a real member of the "in" crowd myself, though, and know exactly what it's like to not have any friends and to be picked on more than my fair share (it happened every time I went to a new school). College was a different story...I was one of those guys who couldn't go anywhere without running into a friend or acquaintance. Hell, I still run into old friends every time I come to Raleigh, and I haven't even lived there for 3 years. I think part of my social success in college was due to the fact that everyone was kinda starting over on roughly equal social footing, and that I was in more of a group of my peers than a general highschool population, and that I'd gotten more adept than some at making friends, since I'd had to do it several times before...but a lot of it was because of the self confidence I'd built by that time.

[Edited on April 21, 2007 at 9:11 PM. Reason : asdfsdfa]

[Edited on April 21, 2007 at 9:15 PM. Reason : sdasdfsdf]

4/21/2007 9:05:50 PM