Quote :

"I still want to hear you try to damage control my first statement."

Which statement was that? This one? "There's going to be someone like that in any system."? Well, my immediate response is "such as?" What set of individuals will feel sufficiently wronged to act against corruption in a communist economic system to bring it to the attention of the populous? Since everything that can be stolen belongs to the communist state which belongs to all 150 million soviets, then anything stolen harmed no citizen more than any other.

I suspect you will have imense difficulty with this problem since philosophers themselves were unable to answer it. They had to instead rely upon brainwashing a better human being that was not greedy and could be trusted not to steal from the state.

Quote :

"you didn't provide any specific examples, why should I?"

The example I gave was a factory manager that expropriates factory assets in a corrupt way. In a capitalist society the factory owners have a keen interest in finding justice. In a communist society the factory owners, which means the people, have no interest what-so-ever in finding justice. Your counter example? Maybe examples of both exist in both systems. Perhaps; but in one system 90% of the population is being watched by incentivized owners; in the other system 90% of the population is being watched by uncaring bystanders. This particular moral hazard of a state-run economy has never been successfully challenged, hence the insistence upon the possibility of brainwashing among communist proselytizers.

4/30/2007 1:47:16 PM

Quote :

"Well, my immediate response is "such as?""

I already gave you an example. There's going to be people complaining about any system, and trying to get the populus to "heed their cry" in any system. How is this exclusive to capitalism?

Quote :

"I suspect you will have imense difficulty with this problem since philosophers themselves were unable to answer it. They had to instead rely upon brainwashing a better human being that was not greedy and could be trusted not to steal from the state."

Where did you read all that crap?

Quote :

"The example I gave was a factory manager that expropriates factory assets in a corrupt way."

My example then is a guy who steals staples from the large company he works for. He only makes a minute impact on the bottom line of the company and hurts the employees, investors, and customers of said company so little that no one bothers to trace it back to him.

Quote :

"In a communist society the factory owners, which means the people, have no interest what-so-ever in finding justice. Your counter example? Maybe examples of both exist in both systems. Perhaps; but in one system 90% of the population is being watched by incentivized owners; in the other system 90% of the population is being watched by uncaring bystanders. This particular moral hazard of a state-run economy has never been successfully challenged, hence the insistence upon the possibility of brainwashing among communist proselytizers."

That's beyond the scope of this thread. I don't want you to try your best to wiggle into some unrelated subject. I want you to explain how corpratism isn't the natural result of capitalism.

4/30/2007 1:55:51 PM

Quote :

"My example then is a guy who steals staples from the large company he works for. He only makes a minute impact on the bottom line of the company and hurts the employees, investors, and customers of said company so little that no one bothers to trace it back to him."

Good work Kris. You have conceeded that a communist society will spend the same effort tracking down and punishing corrupt managers that steal millions that a capitalist society spends tracking down paperclip theifs. Congrats.

Quote :

"I want you to explain how corpratism isn't the natural result of capitalism."

I really cannot say. I fear it is probable that capitalism is an un-realizable ideal that always decomposes into corporatism. It is inevitable for those that consider themselves elites to make a play for power and be allowed by the people to take it. That said, as long as the people and their new elitist rulers remain pragmatic, a corporatist society will remain sufficiently capitalistic to maintain economic and technological advancement.

4/30/2007 2:23:02 PM

Quote :

"You have conceeded that a communist society will spend the same effort tracking down and punishing corrupt managers that steal millions that a capitalist society spends tracking down paperclip theifs."

I could have exaggerated my example to have been something bigger. Hell I could have even changed it to companies that rip each other off badly.

Quote :

"I really cannot say. I fear it is probable that capitalism is an un-realizable ideal that always decomposes into corporatism. It is inevitable for those that consider themselves elites to make a play for power and be allowed by the people to take it. That said, as long as the people and their new elitist rulers remain pragmatic, a corporatist society will remain sufficiently capitalistic to maintain economic and technological advancement."

Does this mean all I have to do is prove that corpratism is an inefficent system?

4/30/2007 5:20:44 PM

Nope, I know it is an inefficient system. It is rediculously wasteful. The greater the proportion of the system that is state-run the greater the waste and inefficiency (on average). So, no, there is no question the system would be substantially more productive and advance faster if it were a capitalist system.

But it is not like communism is any better. It seems to me that communism is equally destined to decompose into corporatism, as Cuba and Soviet Russia have done.

4/30/2007 6:39:50 PM