2

The joke wasn't funny. And you strike me as the kinda kid who'd really believe that they'd make an IQ test easier so as not to offend anybody. I mean, that "joke" had to come from somewhere inside that brain of yours...

4/30/2007 9:31:38 AM

Quote :

"I wouldn't advocate being superficially nice. But if you have any genuine kindness, I think you ought to use it."

I'm not saying anyone is or isn't. But I guess I see all kindness as being essentially shallow in depth (not that its a bad thing) but that genuine concern and a willingess to walk with someone into the darker corners on the mind is different.

4/30/2007 9:58:58 AM

I hate to play the role of the grizzled old teacher, but some of you have seriously been watching too many Hallmark Specials. Go teach at a school on Judge Manning's list, then come back here and we'll talk.

Quote :

"And I'd argue that kids are learning more at younger ages than ever before, despite what Boone says about this "downward spiral.""

Compare teaching methods today to those of 20 years ago. I've been instructed by my county to use a number of classroom strategies originally developed for learning disabled children in my standard 11th grade US History class. I'm not even talking about alternative teaching methods or multiple intelligences... I'm talking about basic content literacy strategies developed to help mentally retarded children learn basic vocab, because teachers in many schools (mine included) have been forced to accept the fact that their students will not lift a finger to benefit their education.

The part that makes me sick is that we as teachers are facilitating their laziness.

Quote :

"she irks the hell out of you, you, you. It's not personal. It's not about you."

The only good advice in the post. Never ever ever take your students' actions personally. Their world is about them, not you.

Quote :

"And honestly, if I was in a bad mood, I'd refuse to do the fruit tasting, too--she should get a BY on that shit even if she's refused to do every other activity (that's how that "grabs me")."

Fuck that. Seriously.

What exactly is the point of a K-12 education? Is it to coddle them and reinforce their belief that they're the center of the world? Will letting stuff like this slide do anything to prepare her for the real world?

The real world has consequences, and they're usually much more severe than a zero for participation.

Quote :

"be kind to her. After all, she's about to face an unkind world."

See above. Damn. Do you not see the gaping flaw in this line of reasoning? How is setting her up for failure kind?

Quote :

"But this kid is in desperate mode and that's right beside suicidal. It doesn't take much at all. "

lol, this kid's in "I just want to eat and socialize at school-- get the hell off my back" mode. Believe it or not, but many, many non-suicidal students make the decision to enter the service sector instead of college. This girl's done absolutely nothing to suggest that she's disturbed.

Quote :

"This is not to say that every teacher can fix every kids problems, or that sometimes you have to cull the herd from time to time, but to just give up on every problem child and assume its their own fault? Yeah, no."

You're assuming that this is the position of anyone in this thread.

I do all I can to help students achieve and give them infinite opportunities to turn around. What I resent is the fact that in order to get my kids to achieve on the EOCs, I have to employ methods that I believe will hurt them in the long run.

And just to be clear-- doing all you can to inspire them does not hurt anyone. Coddling the not-yet-inspired is what gets me. Why bother turning your life around if teachers are so willing to accept and facilitate your extreme attitude and laziness?

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 11:25 PM. Reason : "]

4/30/2007 11:19:34 PM

Quote :

"Fuck that. Seriously. What exactly is the point of a K-12 education? Is it to coddle them and reinforce their belief that they're the center of the world? Will letting stuff like this slide do anything to prepare her for the real world? The real world has consequences, and they're usually much more severe than a zero for participation. See above. Damn. Do you not see the gaping flaw in this line of reasoning? How is setting her up for failure kind?"

I'm not suggesting she let it slide. I'm saying that a taste test is stupid, and I wouldn't blame a kid for not participating. Obviously, the girl's grade is going to be hurt--no "sliding" there. But I'm not gonna judge her for not wanting to participate in a lame ass assignment.

The real world kicks everybody in the ass. Somewhere along the line, some folks got it into their heads that they should start kicking kids' asses early to prepare them for the ass-whooping they're gonna receive in adulthood...do you not see the gaping flaw in this line of reasoning?

When you're an adult in the real world, you have to do shit that you don't want to do. In fact, some folks spend their entire days doing shit they don't want to do. And so, I say, let kids be kids. They'll face the real world soon enough, and forcing them to taste some fruit and write a "discription" of it isn't preparing them for shit.

Quote :

"Compare teaching methods today to those of 20 years ago. I've been instructed by my county to use a number of classroom strategies originally developed for learning disabled children in my standard 11th grade US History class. I'm not even talking about alternative teaching methods or multiple intelligences... I'm talking about basic content literacy strategies developed to help mentally retarded children learn basic vocab, because teachers in many schools (mine included) have been forced to accept the fact that their students will not lift a finger to benefit their education. The part that makes me sick is that we as teachers are facilitating their laziness."

I think you're romanticizing the past.

And I think you should give up teaching. You might do better with a career in bitching and moaning.

[Edited on May 1, 2007 at 5:05 AM. Reason : sss]

5/1/2007 4:54:46 AM

Quote :

"The real world kicks everybody in the ass. Somewhere along the line, some folks got it into their heads that they should start kicking kids' asses early to prepare them for the ass-whooping they're gonna receive in adulthood...do you not see the gaping flaw in this line of reasoning?"

How is holding a 17 year-old accountable to the same rules 99% of her classmates have no problem following "kicking her ass"? Kicking her ass = expecting her to participate in class?

For that matter, where have I suggested that we need to be harsh on the kids?

I'm saying that there's a difference between accepting/accommodating behavior (what you're advocating) and modifying behavior (what any rational teacher advocates). You can't accept/accommodate the crap kids try and get away with. It only reinforces the behavior. This girl's a perfect example. What needs to occur is modification of the problematic behavior.

For example, I'm one of those teachers that provide my kids with paper and pencils when they forget. This only reinforces their carelessness when it comes to supplies. If I took a stand on this issue like many teachers do, the kids would learn to bring their own stuff to class. I choose not to fight this battle, so I have no less than 5 kids without pens or paper each and every day.

If I was this accommodating with stuff that actually mattered, like participation or classwork, I'd be setting these kids up for serious failure in life and on the EOC

Quote :

"When you're an adult in the real world, you have to do shit that you don't want to do. In fact, some folks spend their entire days doing shit they don't want to do. And so, I say, let kids be kids."

Yes, let's allow kids to be kids, but let's not allow 17 year-olds to be kids. She's 1-2 years from the real world, and you're suggesting that the original poster should accommodate this girl's behavior? Where will this girl's behavior get her in life? No one's asking her to do anything remotely as burdensome as a real job.

Quote :

"I think you're romanticizing the past."

So you're saying that these ~5 year-old strategies for accommodating apathy actually existed 20 years ago? Did your parents do more drawing than essay-writing in their US History classes?

Quote :

"And I think you should give up teaching. You might do better with a career in bitching and moaning."

I think you should take up teaching-- then you might have a sliver of credibility in this debate. Go teach at a school on Judge Manning's list, then tell me that failing schools need more accommodation of laziness.

5/1/2007 3:47:10 PM

^
I plan to be a teacher, and if I ever feel the way you do, I'll quit. Supposedly, you believe you are accomodating and facilitating laziness. If you really feel that that's what you do, then you are a terrible person doing a major disservice to society, and you should be ashamed of yourself! And you should most definitely quit your job. You'd do more valuable work as a car salesman or some shit. That's right. Hustling cars and convincing people to buy packages they can't afford would be more admirable than this supposed facilitating of laziness in our youth.

5/2/2007 6:02:55 PM

Shit like this is why I couldn't be a teacher. As far as I'm concerned, the kids who don't give a shit about learning should all be sent to a big nondescript room to sit and wait until they're 16 and given the forms to drop out & a burger king application.
These useless fucks shouldn't be in the real classrooms taking teacher attention away from the kids that want to be a useful member of society.

5/2/2007 6:17:01 PM

It's the retards like ^ you that keep the social class divide increasing in this country.

A lot of kids have a really shitty home life, and have no control over that. Why should you punish them because they were never parented or brought up in a nurturing environment? You shouldn't. It's the teacher's job to not only teach the material, but prepare them to be good citizens down the road.

I agree with a large amount of what Boone is saying, I think you HAVE to find a way to modify their behavior and if not befriend them, at least gain their respect. And there are certainly quite a few days to do that, both in and out of regular class time. Sometimes you have to go the extra mile for people, and it can make a huge difference in their lives and yours.

5/2/2007 6:43:20 PM

it's probably said in here, but how old is this girl?

I think the key is trying to not attack her, try to approach her more as a friend, more as an equal than as a person in authority. Try to find common ground, and try to find some way to motivate her. This has probably all been said before in this thread, but whatever.

But coming from someone who occasionally has had problems with authority figures in the past, things like taking away her chair, and sending her to timeout are definitely not gonna work, they're just gonna further motivate her to isolate herself from your plans and authority. gl though, try to keep in mind that this situation is a good opportunity for you to grow as a teacher and as a person.

5/2/2007 7:01:59 PM

Three words:

Sister

Act

Two

5/2/2007 7:10:39 PM

Quote :

"Average IQ is increasing each decade. And I'd argue that kids are learning more at younger ages than ever before, despite what Boone says about this "downward spiral.""

for one thing, kids these days have uber calculators that do everything for them. back in the day people had to work out any mathematical problem on paper. That makes kids dumber.

We have spellcheck and thesaurus' built into our word programs so we don't have to actually 'look shit up' on our own...one right click and the computer tells you whats a better word to use, or how to re-write a sentence etc etc.

kids these days have become 100% dependent on technology. Take that away and its like standing at the drive through window at McD's when the computers down and the lady can't figure out how much change to give you back on a 99cent item

Quote :

"It's the retards like ^ you that keep the social class divide increasing in this country."

well we can't have people with Masters flipping burgers for us.

(just a joke)

[Edited on May 2, 2007 at 7:45 PM. Reason : fda]

5/2/2007 7:44:49 PM

Quote :

"A lot of kids have a really shitty home life, and have no control over that. Why should you punish them because they were never parented or brought up in a nurturing environment? You shouldn't. It's the teacher's job to not only teach the material, but prepare them to be good citizens down the road."

why should we punish the other 29 kids in the class by having the teacher constantly have to babysit the one kid who should be in a remedial class but was socially promoted so his babysitter from last year wouldn't have to put up with his shit for another 10 months.

ps: I see that the student the OP was about has, in fact, had a recent trauma in her life. I'm not suggesting that she be stuck with the willfully ignorant. she should be seeing the school counselor though, not wasting teaching resources.

[Edited on May 2, 2007 at 8:08 PM. Reason : ]

5/2/2007 8:03:24 PM

It isn't the kids fault that they don't want to learn, its the evil calculators.

5/2/2007 10:09:28 PM

Quote :

"I plan to be a teacher, and if I ever feel the way you do, I'll quit. Supposedly, you believe you are accommodating and facilitating laziness. If you really feel that that's what you do, then you are a terrible person doing a major disservice to society, and you should be ashamed of yourself! And you should most definitely quit your job."

Wow, you didn't rebut a single point in my last post. Nice ad hominem, though. Too bad you know absolutely nothing about me, or teaching.

But yes, I know I'm accommodating and facilitating laziness.

I got the best US History EOC scores in my school last semester, and I'm extremely confident that the kids are learning a ton in my class-- I accomplished this only because I A) put in the 60+ hour work weeks and B) accommodate student laziness and misbehavior to a degree far beyond any of the other teachers. In fact, the only other teacher in the social studies dept that puts up with more crap than I do is also the guy who gets the highest Civics EOC scores every semester.

The other teachers averaged ~18% passing rate on the EOC last year; last semester mine was at 57%-- only about 8% below the state average at a school where ~60% of all kids qualify for free or reduced lunch, ~88% are minorities, and ~30% are EC. All in my first year, all while coaching.

But by all means, continue to lecture me how bad a teacher/person I am.


[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 12:37 AM. Reason : .]

5/3/2007 12:12:09 AM

Boone FTMFW

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. And if you focus the majority of your energy on one horse, beating it and shoving its face in the water when it has no desire to drink, you're doing a TERRIBLE disservice to the other horses who truly want to drink.

I haven't taught, but I have done a lot of substitute teaching. The lower level classes at the high schools were so disheartening...the majority of the class was either a)sleeping b)doing random shit like throwing scissors around c)swearing. There were a few students in the class who were at that level for the genuine reason of needing help, and seeing the sadness in their eyes when their questions were interrupted with profanity from their couldn't-care-less classmates broke my heart. If you focus all your energy on kids who don't care and never will, you're doing a huge disservice to those who geniunely want to learn.

Teachers are so underappreciated, and it's crap like this that just makes their job harder. And critics only make it worse.

5/3/2007 12:33:56 AM

oops wrong thread

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 12:57 AM. Reason : .]

5/3/2007 12:54:41 AM

<3 pawprint

5/3/2007 1:40:13 AM

Quote :

"Boone: But by all means, continue to lecture me how bad a teacher/person I am."

My point was that you're a good teacher and a good person.

5/3/2007 12:53:30 PM

*EOCs are getting more difficult. In math, the tests are now more application and multistep process type of problems. In the past a student would only have to master about 50% of the material to be proficient. Now they have to master 65% +.

*Students are being spoon-fed more. In middle school, kids are allowed to use calculators which means they don't learn the rules of math. I have students now that cannot add, subtract, multiply, or divide integers.

*Students do not retain information, and they will not study unless someone forces them to. In late elementary and middle grades students are supposed to learn the basic area and perimeter formulas for some shapes like circles, rectangles, squares, and triangles. I have students in Geometry currently that do not even know what a radius is.

*Some teachers just suck. I am teaching 4 classes this semester(3 preps/no planning) because we have some horrible teachers at the school. In fact only 6 out of 14 teachers in our department will be asked to return next year. The same thing applies to middle school teachers.

*Instead of teaching our curriculim, we are forced to try and get the kids caught up on things they should have had the previous course. I have students in my AFM(Alg 3 class) that cannot mulitply binomials which is a skill that has been covered in depth in Alg 1 & 2. I then ask them to come after school and get extra help and they decide not to come. Transportation isn't an issue because we run a late bus just for that reason. Most of them just do not care enough.

In order for things to get better at the HS, things must change at the middle and elementary schools. One of our feeder schools is one of the worst run schools in the county and the students that come from that school are really far behind in their skills.

Students also have this sense of entitlement like we owe them something. They have this chip on their shoulder and if you ask them to do something simple such as write down a problem or takes notes he/she will "suck her teeth" and give an attitude.

I tell my students on day one that I will not take their crap. I do not have many discipline problems except for the occasional problem of insubordination.

5/3/2007 9:43:42 PM

I just finished my student teaching. I turned down a job offer because I am going to Grad School here.

I know what you are going through, except my problem kid got long term suspended before I was able to really address the problem.
I just try to get them to do something, whether it fully relates or not. As long as they are working, they don't disrupt the class.
I know it is bad, but some people you can't help. You can try, but you can't make the rest of the class suffer.

5/3/2007 10:32:22 PM

I just finished my student teaching too, I feel very fortunate (but probably disadvantaged) because all my students were for the most part well behaved. Your situation is very different from what I have experienced, but I feel like I have learned some things from this thread.

On that note, for those of you hired in Wake County how long did it take for HR to call you??

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 11:02 PM. Reason : add]

5/3/2007 11:02:10 PM

^bwnttt?

5/4/2007 2:52:01 PM

Quote :

"I feel very fortunate (but probably disadvantaged) because all my students were for the most part well behaved."

Hahah, I had the same experience. I student taught at a very nice school, too. As far as I could tell, most of the teachers got higher-than-average EOC scores simply by passing out busy work. There was very, very little disrespect going on, and the principal took zero crap from any of the students and backed teachers 100%. When I started teaching for real I was pretty overwhelmed.

Just roll with the punches and do your absolute best. There will be plenty of people around to help you out.

5/4/2007 3:32:15 PM

Gosh, there is so much to respond to.

I teach a foods course...so the tasting the fruit part was essential to the lesson I had planned. You can't compare and contrast the elements of frozen foods, versus dried, versus fresh without tasting it. My lesson was on added calories from added syrup and how you can get the same effect from a fresh source. So yeah, a taste test was essential, not stupid.

Bridget, I agree with a lot of what you said but you're wrong on one account. I am kind to all my students. I will ask her to stay after some days and see if she's getting the material and ask if her mom is okay. I do show I care...and then she openly disrespects me in my classroom.

Furthurmore, I don't think it is all about me. I don't take it "personally" but IT DOES affect me. My job status requires I do a good job teaching these students and worrying about my own ass and making sure I teach EVERYONE(even the apathetic ones) to the best of my ability is not making this about me, me, me.

It's taking their lack of interest in doing anything into account when it comes time to look at the VoCats scores...because SURPRISE, even those pesky little "I don't care about anything" kids are still tested and it still reflects upon me and if my scores aren't in the 3 and 4th percentiles, then my kids have to take an extra exam midyear(which takes away more of my classroom time)...now this apathetic student might be one student....but when she works to distract 4 and 5 and 6 other students, then she is directly affecting them and their ability and desire to learn the information directly affects me and my livelihood.

Not saying I'd get fired...but I don't want my kids failing the VoCats and not getting promoted and coming back to me for round two. I'd rather have them pay attention, pass, and we all win. So who is the real problem here? If I'm being self centered by seeking out ways to help HER pass my class...well, I'm just not seeing the rationale in that.

On another note, this girl is a big girl...and she works at McDonalds and has told me she eats half her meals there(during a lesson where you write down what you have eaten for a day and then analyze)...and I think she would really benefit from my lesson on nutrition if she would listen. I don't come at her like that though. I try to make it interesting and I never mention how this class would benefit her specifically.

I took her chair away one day after she broke the "No sleeping" rule with three warnings. I did this instead of sending her to timeout because timeout equals no class time and no possibility of learning the material...I'm hoping just being IN the classroom will help her retain SOME information...and if she gets timeout again she gets suspended and she is expected to do the work at home and, well, that just isn't going to happen.

But after I sent her to timeout last week for skipping, she came back to class minus the attitude and was participating soooo...who knows. Maybe it does work.

I'd say that I have three students who really need a lot of attention...
One is apathetic, one has a major attitude problem, and the last is a thief and a liar.

I'd love the delve into my issues with the thief/liar. You guys would have a BALL hearing about her.

[Edited on May 6, 2007 at 4:24 PM. Reason : more words]

5/6/2007 4:14:18 PM

Oh, and safe school is a school that students who are a danger to other students are sent to learn. For example, one of my students is in an inclusion classroom after he threw a book at my door...and one day he brings a knife to school and when it was taken away, he snatched it back and ran out the door.

The teachers at South Campus are trained to deal with students who are sent to south campus.

For example, here is their daily schedule:
7:50—8:15 am—Students arrive from buses and personal transportation for Morning Assembly in cafeteria.
8:15—8:30 am—Teachers escort students to Homeroom.
8:30—10:05 am—Block 1
10:05—11:45 am—Block 2
11:45—12:25 pm—Advisor/Advisee
12:25—12:50 pm—Lunch
12:50—2:30 pm—Block 3
2:30—End of school
Note: This is an alternative school. As such, all students must be supervised at all times. Any student found un-supervised on campus may face disciplinary action.

They also have a dress code and shortened school day. The "bad" students are sent to south campus and then after their stint there, they can reapply for regular school.

5/6/2007 4:34:14 PM