It is no more difficult to pay an American under the table than an immigrant.

5/27/2007 5:04:29 PM

DEPORT KIDS WHO DO NOT FILE TAXES ON THEIR LAWN MOWING EARNINGS

5/27/2007 5:37:10 PM

Quote :

"They elected some new ones to stop the war. And Bush isn't letting that happen, and you're surprised they have a low approval rating?"

Bush's fault? ...hmmmm.
It's interesting to note that only 37% of self-identified democrats approve of congress. Could democrat corruption and fecklessness be a factor?

5/27/2007 10:17:56 PM

Quote :

"Or, employers can pay illegals under the table. So yea US laws are competing the legal worker out.. because you know, they would have to pay taxes and such like everyone else. "

Question: Why would an employer risk criminal punishments for employing illegal workers?

1) Workers want too much for the same job (pricing themselves out of the market)

2) Workers can not compete on price with illegals (minimum wage, US law)

or

3) Even if workers are competing on wage, payroll taxes and other costs associated with having a legal worker outwiegh the costs and risks of hiring an illegal (US law)

so yes, a major part of illegals putting legal workers out of work would be attributeable to US law.

5/27/2007 10:29:36 PM

Quote :

"Bush's fault? ...hmmmm. It's interesting to note that only 37% of self-identified democrats approve of congress. Could democrat corruption and fecklessness be a factor?"

I'm just saying that if a bill were passed for troop withdrawal, you'd see the approval rating much higher. As it is, they haven't done any more for the people that elected them than the GOP did, so I can understand why it is low. However, they are trying to work around a dictator and his cronies, so getting a higher approval rating is harder to do than in some other situation.

5/27/2007 10:41:22 PM

Hey EarthDogg, i looking at some Congress approval numbers and found this. You might be interested.

Quote :

"Fewer Americans approve of the way Congress is handling its job than at any time since shortly after Republicans impeached President Clinton, a Gallup Poll finds. Only 37% of Americans gave Congress a high approval rating, down from 45% last month, the poll taken last week showed. A total of 53% disapproved, up from 48% in February. 37%: percentage of people in the latest poll who approve of the way Congress is doing its job Sept. 26, 1999: Last time rating was that low Oct. 29, 1997: Last time rating was lower (36%) 84%: Highest rating since polls began in 1974 (Oct. 14, 2001) 18: Lowest rating since polls began in 1974 (March 3, 1992) Source: Gallup Polls. "

oh. wait guess what? ... this is from MARCH 2005

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-03-14-congress-poll_x.htm

you're a fucking retard. are you from Salisbury, by any chance?






[Edited on May 27, 2007 at 11:15 PM. Reason : ]

5/27/2007 11:08:25 PM

Quote :

"oh. wait guess what? ... this is from MARCH 2005"

What a clever "Twilight Zone" like twist.

No kidding, Joe, Congress has pretty much always sucked, wouldn't you say?

Quote :

"As it is, they haven't done any more for the people that elected them than the GOP did, so I can understand why it is low"

Agreed.
Putting the Dems back into power just seems to be asking for more of the same abuse, doesn't it?

5/28/2007 1:20:22 AM

No, it doesn't.

5/28/2007 9:56:26 AM

Quote :

"Question: Why would an employer risk criminal punishments for employing illegal workers? 1) Workers want too much for the same job (pricing themselves out of the market) 2) Workers can not compete on price with illegals (minimum wage, US law) or 3) Even if workers are competing on wage, payroll taxes and other costs associated with having a legal worker outwiegh the costs and risks of hiring an illegal (US law) so yes, a major part of illegals putting legal workers out of work would be attributeable to US law."

No, it is a lack of enforcement of US law that allows the illegal workers to make legal workers non-competetive.

And we aren't talking about shitty low wage work here either. We're not talking about baggers at the grocery store.

We are talking abotu manufacturing and construction jobs.

and A worker has every right to earn a liveable wage.

5/28/2007 1:06:28 PM

Here is a link for current approval ratings.

http://www.pollingreport.com/CongJob.htm

5/28/2007 1:58:59 PM

Quote :

"and A worker has every right to earn a liveable wage."

nope

last time i checked, this isnt a socialist country

5/28/2007 4:45:47 PM

Quote :

"and A worker has every right to earn a liveable wage.""

He has a right to try.

But which employer are you going to force to pay him more than his skills are worth?

5/28/2007 8:56:48 PM

FUCK EM IF THEY CANT GET A JOB LET EM STARVE DARWIN DARWIN DARWIN DARWIN SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST BLAH BLAH BLAH MY ASSHOLE IS BLEEDING BUNCH OF LAZY WORTHLESS BASTARDS AND THEIR STUPID KIDS TOO

5/28/2007 10:06:53 PM

Fuck everyone. All that matters is that I can get my lawn mowed for $5.00 by an illegal alien.

5/28/2007 10:50:45 PM

^ dey tuk ur kid's jobs

5/29/2007 2:30:27 AM

Quote :

"No, it is a lack of enforcement of US law that allows the illegal workers to make legal workers non-competetive. "

If it weren't for US laws that make legal worker uncompetative in the market, it would be irellevant if the laws against hiring illegals were enforced heavily or lightly. if you could get the same wage and work out of an amercan as you could an illegal imigrant, you wouldn't risk the chance of punishment for hiring an illegal. But a legal worker can't compete the same way an illegal can. Combine that with lax enforcement of laws against hiring illegals and you have a perfect market (created by US law) for illegals to be employed and possibly displace legal amercan workers.

Quote :

"We are talking abotu manufacturing and construction jobs."

Even worse then, because now we're adding unions into the mix.

Quote :

"and A worker has every right to earn a liveable wage."

But they don't have a right to do that at any particular job, with any particular skill. Furthermore, it must be a liveable wage, if the illegal workers are managing to live on said wage. What you really want to say is everyone has a right to earn a comfortable middle class wage.

5/29/2007 10:36:56 AM

Quote :

"you wouldn't risk the chance of punishment for hiring an illegal."

What chance of punishment? It doesn't currently exist.

5/29/2007 10:46:51 AM

There are no laws against hiring illegal immigrants?

That's news to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986

Maybe you missed the crackdown on those meat-processing plants last year...

[Edited on May 29, 2007 at 11:06 AM. Reason : 2]

5/29/2007 11:05:36 AM

And yet, illegals continue to stream across the border and continue to be hired. So you tell me "what chance of punishment"?

5/29/2007 11:31:12 AM

They get hired at wages significantly below those of US citizens. In highly competitive, labor-intensive industries, this makes a huge difference in the bottom line. So the companies are willing ot chance the risk.

The INS frequently raids jobsites and manufacturing plants around the country. It's a risk some business-owners are willing to take in order to stay competitive.

5/29/2007 11:43:57 AM

Quote :

"The INS frequently raids jobsites and manufacturing plants around the country."

Sure they do, thats why it is so heavily publicized when it happens...wait, what?

5/29/2007 11:47:45 AM

Quote :

"And yet, illegals continue to stream across the border and continue to be hired."

Because they fill a hole in our market created by a combination of taxes, wage laws and unions.

5/29/2007 3:13:37 PM

Quote :

"If it weren't for US laws that make legal worker uncompetative in the market, it would be irellevant if the laws against hiring illegals were enforced heavily or lightly. if you could get the same wage and work out of an amercan as you could an illegal imigrant, you wouldn't risk the chance of punishment for hiring an illegal. But a legal worker can't compete the same way an illegal can. Combine that with lax enforcement of laws against hiring illegals and you have a perfect market (created by US law) for illegals to be employed and possibly displace legal amercan workers."

It isn't labor laws that make the american worker uncompetetive. It's the higher cost of living in america that makes the american worker uncompetetive.

Quote :

"Even worse then, because now we're adding unions into the mix."

Especially in North Carolina with our extremely pro-union attitude. Jesus christ, look at the statistics first. In the States (except California) where Unions are big, the amount of illegals is minimal.

Quote :

"But they don't have a right to do that at any particular job, with any particular skill. Furthermore, it must be a liveable wage, if the illegal workers are managing to live on said wage. What you really want to say is everyone has a right to earn a comfortable middle class wage."

yes, let's all live off pinto beans, never buy a home, never send a child to college.

Quote :

"Because they fill a hole in our market created by a combination of taxes, wage laws and unions."

wage laws and unions have nothing to do with it. Besides, force the illegals to pay taxes and they won't be as prevalent because you cannot live off their wages and pay taxes.

5/29/2007 7:25:34 PM

From the NY Times:

Quote :

"Bush Takes On Opponents of Immigration Bill By JIM RUTENBERG GLYNCO, Ga., May 29 — President Bush took on parts of his conservative base on Tuesday by accusing opponents of his proposed immigration measure of fear-mongering to defeat its passage in Congress. “If you want to scare the American people, what you say is the bill’s an amnesty bill,” Mr. Bush said at a training center for customs protection agents and other federal agents here in southeastern Georgia. “That’s empty political rhetoric trying to frighten our citizens.” It was some of Mr. Bush’s toughest language as he started an intensified effort to build support for the compromise bill in the Senate. The measure hews to Mr. Bush’s long-sought goal of a new system with a path to citizenship for 12 million illegal immigrants, a guest-worker program for noncitizens and tighter borders. The compromise, which leaders of both parties struck almost two weeks ago, has met stiff resistance from the left and right of both parties. Liberals tend to oppose the section that would add emphasis on admitting immigrants with education and job skills and less on family reunification. Conservatives tend to dismiss the plan as an amnesty bill. It was the conservative opponents to whom Mr. Bush seemed to speak most forcefully here. "If you want to kill the bill," he said, "if you don’t want to do what’s right for America, you can pick one little aspect out of it. You can use it to frighten people." A senior official said later, "In no way was he questioning anyone’s patriotism or desire to do what’s right.""

Cause they'd never do that.

5/29/2007 9:39:42 PM

Quote :

"It isn't labor laws that make the american worker uncompetetive. It's the higher cost of living in america that makes the american worker uncompetetive. "

And what do you suppose contributes to that higher cost of living? Minimum wages drive up the costs labor, which in turn drives up the cost of goods and services. How about income taxes that take nearly 25% of your pay (and thats not counting what your employer pays, meaning that even though the median income for a household is $45,000 / year, they only get to spend $33,000 of that. How about laws like the one that just passed in MA, where all employers must offer their employees health insurance. Who do you think pays for that? The consumer through higher costs of living.

Quote :

"Jesus christ, look at the statistics first. In the States (except California) where Unions are big, the amount of illegals is minimal. "

Sure, I'll look at the stats. Source?

Quote :

"yes, let's all live off pinto beans, never buy a home, never send a child to college. "

1) Americans could do a whole lot worse than live off pinto beans. Our lovely higher standard of living has replaced pinto beans with McDonalds. And it costs us more.

2) America would be better off in my opinion if less people went to college. It ruins the value of a diploma (a BS/BA today is the highschool diploma of 20 years ago), and starts many people out in debt, and no better off than their peers. How many college grads are still working shit jobs? How many of them would have been better off not going into debt, and spending those 4-5 years gaining work experience?

3) I never said that no one could have such a wage or even that everyone couldn't have such a wage. What I said was that no one was allowed to force me to pay them that wage. If you want to make a specific wage, go work for yourself, otherwise, you will make what you negotiate with your employer, and no one has the right to use the government to force a better wage for you.

Quote :

"wage laws and unions have nothing to do with it."

How do you figure?

Quote :

"Besides, force the illegals to pay taxes and they won't be as prevalent because you cannot live off their wages and pay taxes."

So you admit then that the tax laws for employees/employers harm the american worker. At least we agree on that much.

[Edited on May 29, 2007 at 10:53 PM. Reason : asdfadsfa]

5/29/2007 10:49:33 PM

let's do away with taxes, collective bargaining, and safety standards

and you make the false assumption that the working-class in america lives off mcdonalds. Get out of your sheltered world and go to the more rural, former industiral parts of the state. If the working-class really lived off mcdonalds, then a mcdonalds going up in Swain county wouldn't have been a huge deal as it was.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo_est_num_of_ill_imm-people-estimated-number-illegal-immigrants

[Edited on May 29, 2007 at 11:39 PM. Reason : .]

5/29/2007 11:37:44 PM

Quote :

"“If you want to scare the American people, what you say is __________” Mr. Bush said .... “That’s empty political rhetoric trying to frighten our citizens.” "

because if anyone knows about politics of fearmongering... Bush has learned from the best.

That George Orwell. what a sonofabitch.

5/30/2007 12:56:42 AM

Quote :

"let's do away with taxes, collective bargaining, and safety standards "

I never said to do away with them. But if you don't think that they could use some reform and restructuring, then I don't think we're going to agree on anything.

And as far as collective bargaining goes, I really don't care, but don't be suprised when after a while you collectively bargin yourself out of the market and find yourself replaced by cheaper workers. Unions serve a purpose up to a point, but after that, they become like any institution of power, self serving and seeking more resources and power.

Quote :

"and you make the false assumption that the working-class in america lives off mcdonalds. Get out of your sheltered world and go to the more rural, former industiral parts of the state. If the working-class really lived off mcdonalds, then a mcdonalds going up in Swain county wouldn't have been a huge deal as it was."

Seems to me like it's fairly even across the board:

http://www.nasulgc.org/foodsociety/meeting05/Paeratakul%20JADA%202003.pdf

You'll notice that the "working class" have a diet consisting of ~41% fast food, compared to the ~45% of their richer counterparts. Like I said, we could do a whole lot worse than living on pinto beans.

5/30/2007 8:36:06 AM

Quote :

"You'll notice that the "working class" have a diet consisting of ~41% fast food, compared to the ~45% of their richer counterparts. Like I said, we could do a whole lot worse than living on pinto beans."

It's an agregate. That doesn't break the data down into anything worthwhile.

5/30/2007 8:59:51 AM

When did Bush lose the support of the right?

When he botched the wars in Iraq and Afganistan? When he squandered a hard earned surplus on tax cuts? When he subverted constitutional checks and balances to appoint friends to important positions? When he issued unconstitutional wire taps?

Nope.

When he showed support for the brown man.

God Bless the American Right.

6/7/2007 5:46:12 AM