For those with backgrounds in math or science, it would be hard to find a private-sector job in your field where you could spend 30 years with the same company and still make only $5,000 per month after 30 years there.

I didn't leave because of the money; it was because I more-or-less lived at the school most of the year, so that I could do my job well. After 6 years of grad school to earn a PhD, I'll be making less money than I would have by staying as a Wake County teacher, but I'm okay with that.

Those of you who are blaming the teachers ought to spend a day or two as a substitute or classroom volunteer, before you're so quick to place fault on them.

6/29/2007 8:30:46 PM

ah, fuck it. i didn't get into teaching for the money anyway. if a 0.25 percent pay raise is that big a deal to the guys with the pursestrings, screw it. i made the paycheck stretch my first year and i make more than that now with 5 years' experience, so it's all good.

[Edited on July 5, 2007 at 6:56 PM. Reason : asdf]

7/5/2007 6:55:32 PM

Quote :

"For those with backgrounds in math or science, it would be hard to find a private-sector job in your field where you could spend 30 years with the same company and still make only $5,000 per month after 30 years there."

Not if you limit yourself to private sector jobs with pensions, significant vacation the first year, etc.

7/5/2007 8:15:24 PM

In a strange way, I think that this isn't all completely bad. If things get bad enough for teachers, then nobody will want to teach, forcing the hands of the schools or the government or whoever. When there's no teachers because of the ridiculously low pay, there will be no choice but to offer more money.

Or is that simplifying it too much?

7/5/2007 9:32:19 PM

it is. what will happen even if the pay is extremely low is that they will find people to do the job, but the really capable candidates who have other marketable skills will go somewhere else and get into other fields. the schools will have to hire teachers, but with a lower quality of applicant, they'll begin accepting whoever, instead of trying to be as selective (there will always be some people who want to teach), and the students will suffer.

this isn't saying that improved way is the best way to get the best applicants, just that the proposal you had would not result in better pay in the end.

7/6/2007 1:50:17 AM

^ Exactly. The tough-to-fill jobs in high school math and science will be filled with warm bodies, but not necessarily well-qualified teachers. This has long been the case in the more rural parts of our state.

I think differential pay has to be considered, instead of paying all K-12 teachers in a system with the same degree and experience the same salary. If you want good math, science, and (particularly) special ed teachers, you've got to pay for them.

7/6/2007 6:47:03 AM

I agree.

I think it's ridiculous that math and science teachers aren't being payed more than me (social studies)

I also really want to see merit/results based raises. It's equally ridiculous that I was the lowest paid person in my department despite the fact that the entire department was using my US History lesson plans.

7/6/2007 8:35:02 AM

sigh

I think that salary should also be based on how the teacher performs. I don't find it fair that I put in 60+ hrs/week into teaching and prep when the teacher next door puts zero effort into his lesson plans and shows videos half the time and we're paid the time.
Sure I had 97% score proficient or higher 1st semester and 99% the second semester. Which is quite a feat considering where I teach and the scores at my school in general. I'm happy I did so well but the only person who congratulated me was my dept head.

The guy next door had perhaps 25% score at the proficiency level. I taught the same course as him previously and had 97%..

Some teachers do the bare minimum and are basically babysitting while others go above and beyond and give a damn. Yet we get paid the same

I got by the first year with working on the weekends but things are gonna change... it'll be harder once half my pay goes to daycare and I add 2 more people onto my insurance.


"Those who can - do. Those who can do well - teach"

7/6/2007 9:01:52 PM

^ that's been tried - frankly it doesn't work

How does one judge productivity? On test scores? On grades delivered?
Name one metric that keeps the teacher as objective and honest as possible?
Money can be an extremely strong motivator to do unethical things. This type of reinforcement has been proven time after time to be a failure...unfortunately.

7/6/2007 9:11:33 PM

Quote :

"move to a state with a union. that shit would never fly up here in Maryland."

My dad worked with 20+ years experience as a high school teacher in Durham (Riverside I believe), and between that and 2 part time jobs, he still made less (50-75%) than moving to Chicago to work as a teacher (which didn't count the 10+ years of NC teaching experience).

Unions FTMFW

7/6/2007 11:42:36 PM

Yes, because if there's one thing that can improve the clusterfuck that is the govt's schools it's the addition of a union to that equation. I'm sure it's wonderful for the teachers, but I'm sure it royally fucks the taxpayers and the students.

7/6/2007 11:58:26 PM

screw their raises, when teachers are actually worth a damn then give them a raise. like when a kid graduating high school can read and write at a college level, do basic math, know some basic western history, knows how government works and can be an informed voter and finally pays attention to current events...then give them a raise. till then they need to learn to do their damn jobs

7/7/2007 1:04:04 AM

right, teachers have 100% control of what their students learn. It's all the teacher's fault.

[Edited on July 7, 2007 at 1:20 AM. Reason : failed by public education]

7/7/2007 1:19:12 AM

it usually is, when the stats on the number of retards who graduate high school show the kids dont have a basic knowledge of the world, i think the teachers need to be held accountable

7/7/2007 1:27:40 AM

that kind of thinking is what's wrong with the kids these days. NOTHING IS THEIR FAULT! POOR KIDS ARE VICTIMS!

give me a fucking break. kids these days are being raised with that mentality, and do whatever the hell they want, and blame it on other people/things.

7/7/2007 11:17:36 AM

there is only so much we can do

it's hard to motivate a child who is only waiting until he/she turns 16 so they don't have to be there. when they'd rather disrupt the class and cause havoc or get into fights all with the goal of being suspended.

Students really need support at home or from other sources in order to succeed. Sure, there are those few who are self-motivated and come from a broken home or who are living in a group home. but when parents/guardians don't have any interest in how their child is doing in school and there are no consequences for poor or failing grades, when parents refuse to call you back (if they even have a phone # that works), or when they stand you up for conferences, or when they come in and find you in your room and harass you or threaten you (because they'll believe the crap/lies their kid has said and refuse to hold their kid accountable for behavioral or academic problems).... tell me how i'm supposed to guarantee this child success?

I can try and motivate them all I want and get them interested in a subject but if no one is at home checking to make sure their homework is completed or they work on a project and if they fail my class with a 30 and the report card is never glanced at. Parents these days just don't care. They expect us to raise their child for them.

7/7/2007 11:38:06 AM

Its now apart of our society, the no self responsiblity. Blaming teachers bc your child is disruptive, uneducated, etc... is ridiculous. It is not the teachers job to raise children, they are there to provide them with information, its up to the kid and the kids parents to make sure he gets it. Its called, oh whats that word... parenting.

I see alot of teachers as patients. Its so interesting talking to the older teachers and asking what all has changed. They all say responsiblity. They cant discipline alot of these kids for fear of suits or losing thier jobs. And parents will argue what the teacher did to MAKE thier student misbehave. The problem is the parents, well lack of. ITs alot easier to make excuses than to fix the problem. I ask all the parents who kids are on some ADD meds, why is he on them. THey always say" he cant focus or sit still for 5 mins." Then I ask if he plays xbox... and they say, "for hours." So he sits still and focuses for hours huh... and they still dont get it.

7/7/2007 11:46:07 AM

Teachers are getting 5% from the state. Shut the fuck up

7/7/2007 2:17:37 PM

7/7/2007 6:11:11 PM

Quote :

"that kind of thinking is what's wrong with the kids these days. NOTHING IS THEIR FAULT! POOR KIDS ARE VICTIMS! give me a fucking break. kids these days are being raised with that mentality, and do whatever the hell they want, and blame it on other people/things."

AMEN.

once again, from a non-teacher here

7/7/2007 7:04:10 PM

That's the job.

If you don't want to do it,

or can't do it,

the answer is to find another job.
(not oppose pay for performance)

7/8/2007 5:46:04 PM

Quote :

"like when a kid graduating high school can read and write at a college level, do basic math, know some basic western history, knows how government works and can be an informed voter and finally pays attention to current events..."

Because teachers have control over EOG tests, graduation requirements, etc

They may get to control what they teach in their classroom (even that control can be hit or miss), but that doesn't account for the whole no-responsibility thing from kids.

7/8/2007 10:46:19 PM

they need to pay teachers more

they also need to stop the blanket school system, each kid should have money attached to them for education, and the kid can go to any school, and the money goes with him

7/9/2007 12:12:23 AM

^ vouchers

eh.. I have mixed feelings about them

schools have capacitys and if we had a voucher system in place then some schools would be overcrowded (in additin to a teacher shortage). There are magnet schools in the area but if they don't have open slots then they use a lottery system.

We have a lot of parents give fake addresses or relatives addresses to get their kid into our school district. Same thing if parents sign their kid up for a pathway that we offer (therefore they can attend). Then I have kids in my class who could care less about the subject I teach and have behavioral problems and flunk my class and take away from the kids who are actually there because they're interested in it (and want to pursue a collge degree and/or a career in this field)


there is no easy solution. more money and resources and better pay for qualified teachers would certainly help. Some of the best teachers I've met have left teaching for a job that they might not enjoy as much but certainly pays better and is less of a headache.

[Edited on July 9, 2007 at 4:13 PM. Reason : f]

7/9/2007 4:12:24 PM

Quote :

"Teachers are getting 5% from the state. Shut the fuck up "

7/9/2007 4:25:38 PM

unless you have something concrete to contribute , go away

[Edited on July 9, 2007 at 4:46 PM. Reason : f]

7/9/2007 4:45:06 PM

Quote :

"Also, you try having to be at work at 6:50 am and not being able to leave till 4:00 pm"

oh. that sounds so brutal. how do you manage such a grueling schedule for 80% of the year?

Quote :

"I also really want to see merit/results based raises. It's equally ridiculous that I was the lowest paid person in my department despite the fact that the entire department was using my US History lesson plans"

yep. run it like a business. i understand the argument of "pay more so you get & keep better people", and there is certainly merit to the idea, but the way to go about implementing it is by identifying the good teachers and then paying them more...not by just throwing money at a problem via across-the-board raises.

Quote :

"How does one judge productivity? On test scores? On grades delivered? Name one metric that keeps the teacher as objective and honest as possible? Money can be an extremely strong motivator to do unethical things"

but there's the rub

Quote :

"My dad worked with 20+ years experience as a high school teacher in Durham (Riverside I believe), "

who's your dad?

Quote :

"Unions FTMFW"

Fuck unions.





how much do teachers make in NC/triangle area, anyway (starting, average, max, etc)?

7/10/2007 3:15:27 AM

Quote :

"move to a state with a union. that shit would never fly up here in Maryland."

A union would be even worse, then they'd be bitching for more money AND encouraging mediocrity. I agree teachers are generally underpaid considering what they do, but I can remember that about 80% of my teachers were nutjobs who should never have been allowed to teach in the first place. With a union that'd only get worse. If teachers were paid based on performance, oh man you'd see a change for the better.



[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 6:30 AM. Reason : p.s. some people have been listening to boortz.]

7/10/2007 6:29:12 AM

let me just throw one more thing in there...

more qualified teachers DO get paid more. if you get board certified or get a master's/doctorate, your pay increases by several thousand per year.

7/10/2007 8:35:36 AM

^That's a good thing, but there really does need to be a metric based on results.

I honestly wouldn't mind it being based on test results. These EOCs are pretty tough-- if my standard kids are achieving a proficiency rate of about 45% and the rest of the school (standard, honors, and AP) is at 17%, then I'm doing a better job at teaching, period.

Quote :

"screw their raises, when teachers are actually worth a damn then give them a raise."

Oh stfu with that.

1) Excellent educations are available to any student who cares. Today, a "bad" teacher is simply one who doesn't bend over backwards to beg students to learn. It's the students who are getting worse, not the teachers; bad teachers are simply the ones who aren't adapting.

2) Would it be fair to blame you for crime that occurs in your county? Also, using your reasoning, I take it that NYC cops suck compared to Montana cops-- just look at the crime rates, right?



[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 9:30 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 9:28:10 AM

Quote :

"Fuck unions."

Heaven forbid workers can work together to get what they need. Sure it has its drawbacks, but it does more good than bad.


A metric-based payscale would be nice, but hard to get right.

7/11/2007 1:10:16 AM

Some folks wanna attack the teachers.

And then other folks wanna defend the teachers and attack the kids/parents.

You're all missing the big picture.

Most of the teachers are doing the best they can AND most of the parents are doing the best they can.

Our schools are performing exactly the way you would expect them to, given our society.

7/11/2007 1:38:09 AM

Some folks wanna attack the teachers.

And then other folks wanna defend the teachers and attack the kids/parents.

You're all missing the big picture.

Most of the teachers are doing the best they can AND most of the parents are doing the best they can.

Our schools are performing exactly the way you would expect them to, given our society.

7/11/2007 1:39:19 AM

not really.

7/11/2007 8:16:09 AM

Yeah, really.

Take a look around, dude. The majority of the population is hooked on the television and the video games and the internets and the... We are so inundated with advertisements from day one that it's hard to tell the difference between a want and a need...all we see is WANT, WANT, WANT! Must work harder and longer to get that toy, that car, that TV, that boat, and if we have to neglect the kids to get the work done, then so be it--everybody else is doing it. PS3s and Happy Meals for everybody!!!!!!!!

And this is all great for the economy. A lot of the folks putting down the public education system probably make a living off the conditions that keep it fucked up.

The teachers, the kids, the parents, everybody is innocent here. Society is to blame. And I'm just hoping I'll be dead by the time this orgy ends.

7/11/2007 1:57:12 PM

"It's not my fault that you're son is emotionally crippled"

[Edited on July 11, 2007 at 2:09 PM. Reason : 2]

7/11/2007 2:06:17 PM

It is funny that one of the most important positions in society is payed so little amount of money.

7/11/2007 2:29:10 PM

^^^ That's only if you work on the assumption that people are incapable of making rational decisions.

7/11/2007 4:01:27 PM

i still love my job

7/11/2007 4:58:19 PM

Quote :

"The teachers, the kids, the parents, everybody is innocent here. Society is to blame. And I'm just hoping I'll be dead by the time this orgy ends."

Who makes up society except for teachers, the kids, the parents and everybody?

7/11/2007 6:39:55 PM

did any of the teachers in this thread go into teaching with the expectation of making a lot of money? i'd hope not

also a question for teachers...assuming you dont have a sexual relationship with a student or get caught with drugs or something like that...what things can you be fired for? cause from what i hear you have pretty good job security

let alone, please dont complain about 9 hour work days when you get 3 months vacation

7/12/2007 12:55:10 PM

Is there a point to your post?

Are you trying to say "why teachers got it good!" because I think anyone with even two functioning brain cells would agree that teachers have a pretty shitty station in society and the end result is pretty evident.

7/12/2007 2:05:34 PM

well one of the main points of my post was to get the questions that i asked answered

if someone would answer the questions instead of just mocking them i could say whether or not teachers have it good

cause from what i know so far, the whole work 8-9 months of the year with good job security thing sounds pretty damn good

and i'm not demeaning the job or saying it isnt important and worthwhile...i just think some teachers act like their lives are so hard

7/12/2007 2:08:09 PM

I dont know if anyone said it, but the teachers are going to get a raise this year (I think around 5%). The 5% raise comes from the state government. The local governments are supposed to supplement the state income, but they rarely do much. I dont know how much of the lottery money goes to the local governments.

7/12/2007 2:11:26 PM

Let me tackle the question at hand:

Last year was my first year as a teacher. I came into the profession from journalism. I worked a LOT more hours as a journalist, and there was probably more stress in that line of work, though I don't get stressed out by much of anything.

The idea of working 40 hours a week for 10 months is really appealing. The job security and benefits are fantastic. And the salary isn't all that bad when you consider the perks and the multiple, extended breaks throughout the year.

I know a lot of teachers who work around the clock, and that's cool with me. I'm glad they have a passion for what they do. But guess what: So do I. It kind of irritates me to see some of the educators in here patting themselves on the back for working long hours. Work faster?

I get 90 percent of my stuff done before I leave school, and I do it right. I rarely work past 4 p.m., and I have plenty of time to socialize. Even when I'm coaching, I don't put in the number of hours I was logging as a reporter.

Of course I'd like to have more money. Who wouldn't? But it's not as dire as some are suggesting.

I'd like to see more of a middle ground approached in this thread -- something between the idiots suggesting teachers are 100 percent responsible for the lazy kids who refuse to learn and the self-absorbed morons who think they're saving the planet one child at a time.

7/12/2007 2:23:53 PM

^i appreciate the answers

and i'm not blaming teachers or kids or parents solely for any of the country's problems

i just think when a few people in here seem to be complaining about working 9 hour days, it makes people who work 9 hour days for 49 or 50 weeks a year in the private sector (less job security) just shake their heads

hell if i just had the month of july off i would be ecstatic

7/12/2007 2:26:16 PM

Believe me, it makes me shake my head, too. A lot of teachers obviously get their first teaching job right out of college, and they've never had to work in other field. If they did, they wouldn't be complaining nearly as much.

7/12/2007 2:29:13 PM

Quote :

"I dont know if anyone said it, but the teachers are going to get a raise this year (I think around 5%)."

7/12/2007 2:31:54 PM

Quote :

"most of the parents are doing the best they can."

Not sure I buy that, but that is a completely separate issue.

While I am not a supporter of across the board raises for any job, I would like for a base teacher's pay to be a bit higher than it is. I would also like to see more money put into their budget for teaching supplies that are used in the class. I know most of the teachers I ever talked to in K-12 spent a good bit of money out of pocket for various things they used for the student's benefit. The problem then comes where do we get this money I want to give to the instructors and how much am I willing to pay out of my own pocket in taxes.

7/12/2007 2:36:52 PM

I think parents should pay for supplies.

7/12/2007 2:38:37 PM