Yea, it's decidedly a bad all around to have this pass by the entire House... maybe they'll come to their senses between now and when it comes off. It's really not necessary to piss Turkey off right now....

10/11/2007 3:59:44 PM

I'm not saying it was necessarily the best thing from a foreign policy perspective to bring forward, but once you have been publically challenged/threatened, it isn't one of the things you retreat from. Once this bill was publically being considered, killing it would be tantamount to publicly denying that the genecide occurred, or at the very least looking the other way. Once this bill was out there, Congress was effectively in a lose-lose.

10/11/2007 4:28:26 PM

Maybe this is part of the Democrats' strategy to pull out of Iraq.

10/11/2007 8:35:41 PM

System of a Down approves of this thread.

10/11/2007 8:38:01 PM

This resolution is one of the dumbest things congress has done.


Totally fucks things up. this could end up very bad.

10/11/2007 8:50:41 PM

Quote :

"unworthy of NATO and certainly the UN."

el oh el....the UN is worthy now of anything? i think not.

10/11/2007 8:53:41 PM

^D'oh! That was a pretty big slip-up. I meant to say EU instead of UN. My bad.

No, they can let any dumbass they want into the UN, I don't care. But the EU should hold itself to higher standards.

10/11/2007 10:34:13 PM

ok, thats better...

(not saying anything about turkey though....)

10/11/2007 11:45:49 PM

It's OK, I'm perfectly willing to do the Turkey-bashing of an entire board

Incidentally, I'm not fond of the bird, either

[Edited on October 12, 2007 at 12:40 AM. Reason : when it's alive, anyway...dead it's delicious]

10/12/2007 12:40:15 AM

^ You won't be the only one.

How can a government be considered moderate if it actively jails people who "insult Turkishness". Imagine the uproar in the US if someone wanted to amend the first amendment to exclude comments "insulting America"?

Screw them.

10/12/2007 1:05:18 AM

There is also their lovely treatment of religious minorities, including, as it happens, my own:

The quick version from wikipedia:

Quote :

"The modern Turkish state still requires the Patriarch to be a Turkish citizen, though nearly all Greek Orthodox have left Turkey"

Quote :

"In 1971, certain articles of "Private University Law" were found unconstitutional by the Constitutional Court of Turkey; subsequently all private institutions of higher education in Turkey either became (part of the) state universities or closed down. The seminary section of the Halki [the main school of theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church's Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople] school closed down... In 1998, Halki's board of trustees were ordered to disband.... U.S. President Bill Clinton visited Halki on his visit to Turkey in 1999 and urged Turkish President Süleyman Demirel to allow the reopening of the school. In October 1998, both houses of the United States Congress passed resolutions that supported the reopening of Halki. The European Union has also raised the issue as part of its negotiations over Turkish accession to the EU. However, the school remains closed, and there is strong opposition to reopening it from Turkey's nationalist parties, particularly the secular Republican People's Party."

10/12/2007 1:19:07 AM

There actually are private Universities in Turkey right now as several of my friends attended them.

Also, Turks at no point ever prosecuted systematically based on Religion. Case in point: There actually are orthodox Greeks. This is pretty contrary to the usual Imperial practices globally (British Empire) during the Ottoman Empires reign in which the invading army usually imposed a requirement to convert to the official state religion and way of life.

Of course you've never been there and you actually don't have any concept of history other then wikipedia and neckbeard rage so I'm sure you'll continue to make retarded comments.

Luckily its friday, and I have plenty of time.

10/12/2007 10:30:30 AM

Quote :

"There actually are private Universities in Turkey right now as several of my friends attended them."

Subsequently some private schools did reopen, but my post was concerned with one in particular which is still closed.

Quote :

"Also, Turks at no point ever prosecuted systematically based on Religion. Case in point: There actually are orthodox Greeks."

Well this is good reasoning: The turks didn't persecute the Orthodox because there are still some left.

Secondly, I'll refer you to the Istanbul Pogroms, again pointing to wikipedia just out of convenience:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Pogrom#Aftermath

Quote :

"Tensions continued and in 1958–1959, Turkish nationalist students embarked on a campaign encouraging the boycott of all Greek businesses. The task was completed eight years later in 1964 when the Ankara government reneged on the 1930 Greco-Turkish Ankara Convention, which established the right of Greek etablis (Greeks who were born and lived in Istanbul but held Greek citizenship) to live and work in Turkey. Deported with two day’s notice, the Greek community of Istanbul shrunk from 80,000 (or 100,000 by some accounts) persons in 1955 to only 48,000 in 1965. Today, the Greek community numbers about 5,000, mostly older, Greeks."

During this period we have both private (on behalf of student groups, etc) and government persecution of the community, if not based on religion then based on ethnicity, which is oh-so-much better. They also managed to go after Armenians and Jews.

Quote :

"Of course you've never been there"

I've never been to Iran, either, but I'm pretty confident in saying that they aren't big fans of us or the Israelis. Having gone to a place doesn't make you an expert and not having gone there doesn't make you unable to talk intelligently about it.

Quote :

"This is pretty contrary to the usual Imperial practices globally (British Empire) during the Ottoman Empires reign in which the invading army usually imposed a requirement to convert to the official state religion and way of life."

True, the Ottomans and other Muslim states of the time were generally pretty good about not doing that sort of thing, and comparably were better than much of Europe. There was the child tax thing, but eh, can't win them all.

The problem is that I wasn't talking about the Ottoman Empire, I was talking about the nation of Turkey, whose track record -- adjusted for modern standards -- is not so hot.

10/12/2007 12:52:57 PM

maybe we should pass a resolution recognizing the UK genocide of the Bush people in Africa

10/12/2007 1:06:31 PM

Quote :

"if not based on religion then based on ethnicity, which is oh-so-much better. They also managed to go after Armenians and Jews."

No, its actually completely different to claim persecution based on religion and to state persecution based on culture. Greeks and turks not getting along isn't something new and predates the birth of the United States. Progrom's in Istanbul, and attempted Greek annexation of Cypress. Its a much more complicated relationship then your retarded attempts and simplification suggest.

As for jews, since you love your wikipedia sources:

Quote :

" Turkey was the first Islamic country to recognize the State of Israel [4]. Turkey and Israel have had a unique relationship in the Middle East. Israel has been a major supplier of arms to Turkey. Their agreements include cooperation in the "domains of air, sea, land, intelligence; and the manufacturing of aircraft, armaments and missiles," and "prepares the way for mutual military visits, training and exercises, dispatch of observers to oversee military exercises, staff exchanges and military know-how." The strong relationship between Turkey and Israel has angered the Arabs. Turkey has attempted to maintain an image of neutrality on the topic of various Arab issues such as the Palestianian-Israeli conflict and Lebanon [5] [6].The Israeli Mossad also played a role in arresting the Kurdish leader, Abdullah Ocalan[7]. "

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish-Jewish_relations

Quote :

" During the Ottoman rule A key moment in Judeo-Turkic relations occurred in 1491, when more than 150,000 Spanish Jews fled the inquisition, many to the Ottoman Empire. At that point in time, Constantinople's population was a mere 70,000 due to the various sieges of the city during the Crusades and the so-called Black Death of the 14th century, so this historical event was also significant for its repopulation of the city. These Sephardic Jews settled in Constantinople, but also in Thessaloniki which came to be known as "Mother Of Israel" due to its large Jewish population. [edit] Republic of Turkey and the establishment of Israel Turkey also served as a transit for European Jews fleeing Nazi persecution during the 1930s and 1940s. [6]. "

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish-Jewish_relations

And as for the progroms:

Quote :

" Nevertheless, Turkish society has remained relatively tolerant toward its Jews [citation needed] , and are today among the wealthiest communities in Turkey [citation needed] , with many prominent businessmen and large companies. The present size of the Jewish Community is estimated at around 26,000 according to the Jewish Virtual Library. The vast majority live in Istanbul, with a community of about 2,500 in Izmir and other smaller groups located in Adana, Ankara, Bursa, Çanakkale, Iskenderun and Kirklareli. Sephardic Jews make up approximately 96% of Turkey's Jewish population, while the rest are primarily Ashkenazic. "

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey

By your Glenn Beck 5th grade logic, the United States is especially intolerant of Blacks, Native Americans, Mexicans and Japanese because you know, at one time or another these groups were (and some arguably still are) treated like shit.

10/12/2007 2:51:32 PM

not sure if it's been said, but this bill has been passed before... TWICE in the 70s... why in the hell are they doing this again?

10/12/2007 3:14:58 PM

Quote :

"Greeks and turks not getting along isn't something new and predates the birth of the United States."

Really? Please tell me more, wise sensai.

Religion is an important element of culture. Clearly the Turks thought so or they wouldn't have been burning down churches and killing clergymen during these pogroms, which, however nuanced and layered their causes may have been, were patently unacceptable. You know, just like any and all pogroms are, by definition.

Quote :

"As for jews, since you love your wikipedia sources:"

I won't bother going through and quoting the sections from the very pages you posted that talk about how the pogroms targetted the Jews, or about how Turkish taxes were higher on non-Muslims, or about the 10,000 Jews that fled the country.

I mentioned the treatment of the Jews during the pogroms as an aside. I don't think the country is particularly anti-semeticYou're trying to get me to talk about all this other shit when my point was and remains that Turkish treatment of the Greek and Orthodox elements of its country has been and continues to be unacceptably poor and unbefitting of the international status Turkey seems to think it deserves. The attempted state control of the head office of the Orthodox religion did not happen "at one time or another," it is happening currently. The closing of its chief seminary and forcible dismantling of private organizations to support it doesn't date back to Jim Crow, it dates back to right this fucking second.

[Edited on October 12, 2007 at 4:03 PM. Reason : ]

10/12/2007 4:02:31 PM

Quote :

" Really? Please tell me more, wise sensai. "

Are you joking?

Quote :

" Religion is an important element of culture. Clearly the Turks thought so or they wouldn't have been burning down churches and killing clergymen during these pogroms, which, however nuanced and layered their causes may have been, were patently unacceptable. You know, just like any and all pogroms are, by definition. "

Holy mother of flip flop. First its religion, then its ethnicity, now its religion again? A populist government doing something retarded at some point in a country's history is nothing new. I'm pretty sure we all can name similar acts in practically every country on the planet.

Quote :

"I won't bother going through and quoting the sections from the very pages you posted that talk about how the pogroms targetted the Jews, or about how Turkish taxes were higher on non-Muslims, or about the 10,000 Jews that fled the country. I mentioned the treatment of the Jews during the pogroms as an aside. I don't think the country is particularly anti-semeticYou're trying to get me to talk about all this other shit when my point was and remains that Turkish treatment of the Greek and Orthodox elements of its country has been and continues to be unacceptably poor and unbefitting of the international status Turkey seems to think it deserves. The attempted state control of the head office of the Orthodox religion did not happen "at one time or another," it is happening currently. The closing of its chief seminary and forcible dismantling of private organizations to support it doesn't date back to Jim Crow, it dates back to right this fucking second. "

I like how you said you didn't bother reading when you clearly clicked those links and tried to find a point to support your vague argument (and still failed, by the way, since Turkey is probably the most pro-Jewish predominantly muslim country in the world).

Your entire Orthodox Greek point is also retarded and lends credence to my first accusation against you stating that you really have no clue about the country you're so vehemently ranting about. The Turkish government is, has been, and will continue to be very touchy about any religion. Islam is heavily regulated by the state and better analysis of the links I provided to you would also let you know that Judaism in Turkey is also tied to the state via institutions established in the early Ottoman Empire.

In fact, a valid criticism of Turkey could be its vehement adherence to secular beliefs that exclude those wearing the Islamic Head scarf, and growing religious beards from holding positions as public servants. Using your logic, I probably could argue that Turks also persecute practicing muslims by denying them the very basic right of openly practicing their faith in public. Never mind that similar restrictions were passed in France recently.

That Turks would demand the head of the Orthodox church in Turkey be a Turkish citizen is more an insult directed to her direct western neighbor and obvious side effect of rabid Nationalism then any sort of special religious persecution.

10/12/2007 4:56:20 PM

man, I am so glad that we have nothing better to do with our time than pass bills that talk about shit that happened in the early 20th century.

genocide is baaaaaad, mmmmmkaaaayyyyy?

10/12/2007 5:05:11 PM

Quote :

"Really? Please tell me more, wise sensai."

Seriously? Its common knowledge that the Turks and Greeks don't get along....unless you've been living in a bubble called the USA all your life....its time you pop that shit.

10/12/2007 5:14:59 PM

more than common knowledge

they've fought three wars against each other

10/12/2007 5:40:18 PM

Quote :

"By your Glenn Beck 5th grade logic"

lol thats a winner right there

10/12/2007 5:42:48 PM

^not arguing the point but you are the last person on the internet to declare anything a winner.

10/12/2007 6:31:24 PM

bttt

10/12/2007 6:37:15 PM

you are a fucking dumbass...bttt means back to the top. Now whats the point of posting a bttt if the thread is already at the top

10/12/2007 7:07:36 PM

back to the topic

10/12/2007 7:26:35 PM

Can't you go to jail in France for saying "The Armenian Genocide Did Not Happen"

10/12/2007 7:29:39 PM

So wait

You mean that not one, but two people in this thread thought that I meant "tell me more, wise sensai" sincerely?

Jesus Christ, are you people autistic or something that you can't read human interaction well enough to pick up that piece of sarcasm?

Quote :

"First its religion, then its ethnicity, now its religion again?"

It's a confluence of factors, obviously. Ethnicity was probably a poor choice of words to begin with, and I apologize. Turks and Greeks don't like each other for historical, religious, and other reasons. But religion does play into things in a visible way, both as a cause and, for lack of a better term, as a victim.

Quote :

"A populist government doing something retarded at some point in a country's history is nothing new."

But that's just the problem. If it were just a cabal of bigots running things, that could be easily enough explained away. But it went deeper than that -- as you say, the movement was populist, and had roots in sentiments felt through much of society.

Quote :

"I like how you said you didn't bother reading when you clearly clicked those links and tried to find a point to support your vague argument (and still failed, by the way, since Turkey is probably the most pro-Jewish predominantly muslim country in the world)."

When did I say I didn't read it? As you say, clearly I did. I said I wouldn't bother actually quoting anything.

And my argument was only as vague as the one to which I was responding. To repeat a concept I used earlier, saying that Turkey is the most pro-Jewish predominantly Muslim country isn't saying terribly much. You're right, they are relatively nice to Jews within and without their country. They do, however, belong to a relatively small club of nations who have tried to chase out their Jews since the end of WWII.

Quote :

"The Turkish government is, has been, and will continue to be very touchy about any religion...In fact, a valid criticism of Turkey could be its vehement adherence to secular beliefs "

Agreed on both points. However -- what Turkey does regarding its own Muslims affects Turkish citizens alone. The effect of such laws being domestic does not make them right, but it does put them on a smaller scale than their restrictions on the Patriarchate of Constantinople, the overwhelming majority of whose adherents live outside of Turkey.

As you say, their actions are in many regards manifestations of belligerence to Greece and "rabid Nationalism," neither of which are good things. It is these elements which put their restrictions on the Orthodox Church in a different category, as they add a dimension of needless international friction.

10/12/2007 8:47:45 PM

Perhaps Congress should have passed a resolution calling out every genocide that has ever occurred amongst any nation, including those that we have sponsored.

That would have been a noteworthy resolution. Does anyone know what brought this bill to the floor?

^
We've become too accustomed to the .

[Edited on October 12, 2007 at 8:50 PM. Reason : ]

10/12/2007 8:48:24 PM

I sincerely believe this is the last way that the Democrats have come up with to undermine and end the Iraq war. THey're too much of a bag of pussies to man up and force a vote to withdraw funding, so now they're maliciously undermining the war effort by pitting one of our best allies in that region, who, without their support WE COULD NOT EFFECTIVELY WAGE WAR AGAINST IRAQ/N, for the sole purpose of ending the war. This is the only reason I can think of since this RESOLUTION HAS BEEN PASSED, TWICE, BEFORE, and it's been nearly 100 damn years since this even happened.

It is absolutely unbelievable that this group of idiots would do this. And ask yourself this question, sincerely... If the US "wins" in Iraq... if we establish some sort of working democracy with peace... will the Democrats ever recover from that? They can't have a win in Iraq. Their entire strategy since 2003 was banking on the LOSS in Iraq......

10/13/2007 11:08:29 AM

Quote :

"Maybe this is part of the Democrats' strategy to pull out of Iraq."

No doubt. While the anti-war left is usually all about making friends with everyone in the world, that's not the case in this situation. You have to remember, the anti-war left - democrats - only care about one thing. They want to make sure that we lose this war. Losing Turkey as an ally pretty much guarantees that will happen.

10/13/2007 11:13:53 AM

Haha, good point... isn't it the Democrats that care oh so much about our perception in the world? How others view us? Well they just made a great start at repairing our image by pissing off an important ally in the middle east to the point that it made them withdraw their amassador from Washington.


This is fucking malicious. There is no two ways about it.

10/13/2007 11:17:21 AM

appeasement ftw

10/13/2007 11:57:49 AM

maybe congress will get to share the next Nobel prize together with the terrorists in Iraq.

10/13/2007 12:26:03 PM

Quote :

"So wait You mean that not one, but two people in this thread thought that I meant "tell me more, wise sensai" sincerely? Jesus Christ, are you people autistic or something that you can't read human interaction well enough to pick up that piece of sarcasm?"

Sarcasm my ass.

10/13/2007 5:23:02 PM

You're right man

I called someone "wise sensai" and meant it

You saw straight through my clever ruse and have laid bare my defense for the pack of hollow lies that it is

I kneel before your superior intellect and argumentative skill

10/13/2007 7:57:03 PM

That still doesn't change the fact that you thought the Greeks and Turks got along.

[Edited on October 13, 2007 at 8:26 PM. Reason : .]

10/13/2007 8:26:15 PM

I think that this thread is missing its token Turk, and so I think I'll throw my hat into the fray. Here's a post I wrote on this topic earlier in the weekend:

http://www.onvural.net/melih/wordpress/?p=67

On top of that, I notice that the token Greek has forgotten to mention the forced migration of Turks from Greece after WWI. Millions of Turks whose family had lived in what is modern Greece for generations were forced to migrate to Turkey. In response, Ataturk forced the migration of millions of Greek descent who only spoke Turkish back to Greece. It's an ugly relationship, that has only soured through the years because of political bickering over small things like islands in the Aegean and large things like Cyprus and the EU.

Your blind hatred is disgusting. It belongs in 1821 and in terrorist organizations like November 17th. It doesn't belong in intelligent discourse.

Furthermore, on the topic of "insulting Turkishness" you guys are absolutely right to say that's a stupid law. But it doesn't mean that other nations don't have stupid laws. And in the last 10-15 years, it has become less and less likely that someone is actually tried under this law. It remains on the books because Turkey is still a developing democracy, and some things are still Ataturkist in nature. That doesn't mean that every democracy in the world supports freedom of speech. It's quite unique to the developed world, and a nation that is still developing where you go from the 21st Century (Istanbul) to the 15th Century (anywhere along the Black Sea) in a matter of a few hours drive isn't yet a developed nation.

Also, a Greek talking about whether Turkey is worthy of being in the EU is a joke. Greece has such corruption that they couldn't finish their Olympic Stadiums in time. Instead they just had open roofs over everything. This summer land developers burned down half of the country in an effort to expand the area where they could develop. Too bad they lost total control of the fires and almost ruined the antiquity of the nation.

The higher taxes that you mention on non-Muslims is a part of the Qu'ran. In other words, a religion that is considered horribly intolerant today has built into it a system to allow any religion of the book to exist within a Muslim society. There is a cost. But if being Orthodox is worth that much to you, then we allow it.

Pogroms did happen. I'll admit that. No nation has no skeletons or events of which they are ashamed. Also, a lot of people died in Eastern Anatolia during the dying days of the Ottoman Empire during the reign of the Young Turks. This is what the the HoR is now labeling a genocide. You weren't there, and nor was I, and nor were these Congressmen and Congresswomen. Therefore, the notion that they can determine whether it was a systemic slaughter of innocents 90 years removed from the events is a farce. I might be splitting hairs, but this is where the differences are on this issue. The Turks have admitted that people died, but won't call it systematic. The Armenians, and others including the NYT and scholars, call it a systematic genocide. Does a word have any meaning unless we empower it? That's what is being argued here.

Finally, Turkey doesn't need the EU. The EU has provided a fantastic framework though which Turkey has been able to grow its economy and expand the rights of minorities. It has brought some great advances to Turkish society, and forced Turks to make critical decisions towards benefiting this generation and generations to come. But at the end of the day, with or without the EU, Turkey is going to be a nation which influences the direction of world affairs as long as oil is the primary source of energy throughout the world. You've never seen how Germans treat Turks in Germany. And if you have, then you'd be a fool to claim that Turks are the only ones in Europe who suppress minorities. That is truly what makes America beautiful. Anyone can succeed here. That's not true in almost any other country in the world.

10/14/2007 1:41:00 AM

^ If that's suppose to be a defense of the Turks, i'd hate to see an attack on them.

10/14/2007 1:56:49 AM

Quote :

"There is a cost. But if being Orthodox is worth that much to you, then we allow it."

unbelievable

10/14/2007 10:23:13 AM

Why is that unbelievable? Do you guys not understand how revolutionary the American ideals by which we live are? Find me one other country that enjoys the freedom of religion, expression, and difference that we do in America. It isn't perfect, but damn it's good. You can't look at a country like Turkey or Greece or Armenia and say, "Damn, it's not America and therefore it sucks." Well I guess you can, but it isn't the appropriate way in my opinion to approach the issue.

Also, I realized that my previous post is very angry, and I apologize for that. GrumpyGOP isn't a bad human being, but simply passionate about something. I didn't mean to imply that he was a terrorist.

Finally, my post wasn't meant to defend Turks, but to explain why some stuff that doesn't make sense to US-born observers doesn't make sense. I don't want pity. I just want folks to understand a little better where Turkey is as opposed to where it would be nice if they were.

10/14/2007 1:20:50 PM

FYI, american ideals were revolutionary 200+ years ago. they have since spread throughout the centuries

just figured i'd float the notion that an idea thats been around for a quarter of a millenia isn't exactly "revolutionary" but good try at rationalizing some backwards ass policies. A+++ for effort!

10/14/2007 3:51:08 PM

Just because America does something doesn't mean the whole world has to follow America had it easy because they started fresh with a clean slate. These countries have been around far longer and are built on traditions from generation to generation.

[Edited on October 14, 2007 at 4:02 PM. Reason : t]

10/14/2007 4:02:18 PM

Quote :

"That still doesn't change the fact that you thought the Greeks and Turks got along. "

No dude, I didn't. That's why it was sarcasm. He said something painfully obvious, and I said, "Really?" You don't get to be Greek Orthodox and not know that Greeks and Turks hate each other.

Quote :

"On top of that, I notice that the token Greek"

Quote :

"Also, a Greek talking about whether Turkey"

I have to assume you're talking about me. I'm not Greek. I'm not even part Greek. I'm 100% Anglo-Saxon. As far back as my family can be traced -- and they can be traced fairly far -- we all came from England, Scotland, and Wales.

So thanks for playing.

Quote :

"Millions of Turks whose family had lived in what is modern Greece for generations were forced to migrate to Turkey."

Well here's the question: if we were to condemn this forced migration, would Greece freak out and withrdaw its diplomat from Washington?

Quote :

"Your blind hatred is disgusting."

I don't hate Turks, and I wouldn't think twice about the Turkish government if not for a combination of their meddling in my religion and being a bitch to my country.

Quote :

"Greece has such corruption that they couldn't finish their Olympic Stadiums in time."

There's a world of difference between corruption and systematic repression of religious groups. There's also a world of difference between corruption and maintaining an illegal 33 year invasion of the only occupied territory in Europe.

Quote :

"The higher taxes that you mention on non-Muslims is a part of the Qu'ran. In other words, a religion that is considered horribly intolerant today has built into it a system to allow any religion of the book to exist within a Muslim society. There is a cost. But if being Orthodox is worth that much to you, then we allow it."

I don't need to say a word here. You make me fucking sick.

Quote :

"You've never seen how Germans treat Turks in Germany."

Hahahaha

"We're more tolerant than the Germans"

Hahahahahahaha

I'm sorry, I realize that's taking things horribly out of context, but it struck me as hillarious.

10/14/2007 4:37:28 PM

Quote :

"No dude, I didn't. That's why it was sarcasm. He said something painfully obvious, and I said, "Really?" You don't get to be Greek Orthodox and not know that Greeks and Turks hate each other."

part of my family is Orthodox and attend Greek Orthodox churches in Egypt...does that make them Greek and experts?

10/14/2007 4:47:37 PM

Sure they're not Coptic? It's a common mistake.

At any rate, no, it wouldn't make them experts, but you can't hang around Greeks terribly long without the subject coming up.

Spend a day with a Greek, and the following things, in my experience, will inevitably be discussed:

1) Greece is the cradle of everything good about civilization.
2) "Those goddamn Turks"

Roughly the same thing can be said about Peruvians, when you exchange Greece and Turks for "Peru" and "Chileans," respectively.

10/14/2007 4:58:12 PM

We have a mix of Cathloic, Coptic, Orthodox, and Protestant in my family. We all get along great (no sarcasm). My uncle got married in the Orthodox church so of course I couldn't understand a word of what was going on because most of it was in Greek.

10/14/2007 5:06:40 PM

Quote :

"No dude, I didn't. That's why it was sarcasm. He said something painfully obvious, and I said, "Really?" You don't get to be Greek Orthodox and not know that Greeks and Turks hate each other. "

Huh?

That doesn't seem like it speaks too well of the religion.

10/14/2007 7:19:38 PM

Orthodox people are not all Greek and vice versa. However, going to an Orthodox church, you're bound to run into some Greeks eventually. The non-Greek converts (like myself) don't share the longstanding, deep-seated cultural dislike for Turkey that the ethnics have. I know that my posts might not give that impression, but try to remember that there are things Turkey could do to make me 100% A-OK with it: acknowledging the genocide, backing off the church, etc. There's those Greeks for whom the only thing that will make Turks acceptable is death, or at least their forcible removal to some place far away from Greece.

And that...well, that's just the Balkans, which has an astonishing capacity for holding and nurturing grudges.

---

So in short, it isn't a function of the Orthodox religion, any more than Palestinian hatred of Israel is a function of Islam.

10/14/2007 7:53:54 PM

It was foolish of me to think that being Orthodox meant that you had to be Greek. So, I'll take back my token Greek comment, which I meant to take back in my 2nd post apology for calling you a terrorist.

On the topic of the Greek Orthodox chuch, I think that's highly political, and that it, just like the issue of Kurdish rights in Eastern Turkey, will be decided as Turks decide whether to join the EU or not. This is one of the reasons I say that the EU is great for Turkey. Make us make decisions. If we choose against equality, then we have failed, and we have moved backward in time. But if we choose progress, then everyone benefits. That's why Turkey joining the EU is something you should support. If you want the Patriach to be less oppressed and have the right to a religious school, then push for Turkey entering the EU. If given the chance, they fail, I will personally apologize to you. However, I think you'll be surprised at the result. Given a chance to be better people in a better world, I think the Turkish nation would choose progress.

Quote :

"FYI, american ideals were revolutionary 200+ years ago. they have since spread throughout the centuries just figured i'd float the notion that an idea thats been around for a quarter of a millenia isn't exactly "revolutionary" but good try at rationalizing some backwards ass policies. A+++ for effort! "

Simply because America has stood for something for 200+ years doesn't mean the world has absorbed those ideas. Where did America expand until the last 1800's? Into America. Therefore the ideals that you say have spread for 200+ years have only really spread for about 150 years. On top of that, the Cold War wasn't about spreading ideas as much as it was about stopping communism. So I'd say you lose 50 years there. Ideas need to evolve and be hashed out over many generations. To say that these American ideals have successfully spread in 100 years of American global influence is ignorant. Look at the racism and religion issues that nations as tolerant as the Netherlands is experiencing now. The hardships that America has grown through are the same hardships that many European nations are living through for the first time in the generation of our fathers and ourselves. I'd say ideas are still being hashed out, not yet accepted.

10/14/2007 8:31:03 PM